Building Fate/Stay Night powers in HERO

[Hastur]

  I should start by saying I'm not the GM of this campaign, I'm just the person whose picked up the rules the fastest and the most completely, I also don't actually know much about the Fate setting beyond what I've been conveyed by the GM and other players (I joined the game mostly because I had never tried the HERO system before and was interested). 

 

  Anyway, we are all new to the HERO system, and I managed to pick up the rules the fastest, so I've been helping the other players and the GM find ways to build their powers so they comply with the logic of the Fate setting and function within the HERO system, but in doing this I ran into a few road blocks:

 

- We've been trying to figure out if it's possible to make attack powers that don't require a roll to hit. Specifically in relation to "Mystic Eyes of Distortion" which we've had trouble trying to build in a way that doesn't cost a massive amount of points. For the time being we have build it as a Multi-Power with a handful of abilities related to twisting a region of space in ones line of sight (using a combination of Deflection, reflection, a highly limited Telekinesis that can only rotate things and not move them in any other way), but the biggest problem has been figuring out how to make it work as an attack. It was decided that it should probably be an RKA of some kind (what with it being able to twist any limbs or body parts around a single axis, breaking bones, etc.), but the issue has been that the power, according to the GM and other people that understand it the best, doesn't really "miss" which has lead to many hours of pouring over power adders and advantages seeing if there is some way to make a power hit automatically, without requiring a to hit roll. Is such a thing possible, or would it have to be house rule in some way?

 

- Next we had a slight issue with making a power related to something called the Imaginary Numbers dimension. The way I had it described to me was that the character can open holes into "Imaginary Numbers" space, where time does not exist, and store objects (and potentially people). I built it using a Dimensional Travel that used the Gates option to stuff objects into or pull them out of wherever he leaves them. It works for the most part, but the GM wanted to have the power work as follows: The character should theoretically be able to make an extremely large opening, but the larger the opening the longer it takes to open it. For the time being I suggested buying the max AOE for what it could open to and using the Extra Time for the max time it took to open that size, and just say that it takes less time for smaller holes, but I was wondering if there was an easier way to do this.

 

  There might be more that I'm forgetting (will post more if the GM reminds me) but for now those are the big two off the top of my head.

[Duke Bushido]

HERO does not do absolutes, I'm afraid.  There is no "guaranteed hit" or "guaranteed miss" or anything like that.  In fact, the rules state quite specifically that an 18 will _always_ miss, no matter what your actual attack roll is.  Need a 22 or less?  Doesn't matter.  Roll and 18 and you miss.

 

That being said, the closest thing you can do to create "always hits" is to ensure that you hit on a 17 (or higher) or less roll.

 

Some of the more common tactics include butt loads of CSLs and that old favorite: Area of Effect: Single HEX.

 

You see, a Hex has a DCV of 3.  If you have an OCV of 8, then you need (8+11) - 3 = 16 or less to hit.  So pop on a couple of low-cost CSLs (you know: since you only need them to apply to this one power, you don't need the pricier ones) and suddenly your needing 20 or less to hit.

 

Maybe an a characteristic as a power:  +3 OCV for this one specific power / spell / whatever it is you have in FATE  (I don't allow it personally: if you want bonuses to your CV for a specific power, get CSL.  But that might just be me).  

 

Don't forget that your target has something to say about this, too.  Fortunately, Hexes don't doge well, and are positively terribly about diving for cover.  Still, talented players can come up with something to make it harder for you to hit them:

 

Every GM is different, but given that the build (one of the many blue books calls this the "Accurate" Advantage, or something like that.  At any rate, given that it is just a mechanic designed to simulate not missing very often at all, and the attack is, story and effects-wise, being delivered to the _character_ and not the HEX, depending on how the power works, I would likely allow the character to dodge, dive for cover, roll with the blow, and possibly even missile deflect it.  But as I said:  every GM is different.  Some will shoot that down because "the mechanic says," even in the face of accepting that the mechanic is a stand-in for not missing when shooting a _character_.  I can put this Advantage on a revolver.  I promise the character is not taking damage because the bullet whizzed passed him in the same hex.  

 

But I digress.  Find out first if your GM will be allowing such things toward defending against this attack.  If so, well----  more CSL (or CV) for you then, Sir!

 

At any rate, if you can keep your CSLs and CV combined total high enough that only an 18 will miss, you're about as close to "never miss" as you're going to get, as an 18 comes up on 3d6 just under one-half of a percent of the time-- one time in ....  216?  I think it was 216, and I'm trying to get to bed, so forgive me for not double-checking.  It's not _perfect_, but it's as close as you're going to get.  More than one of us has used such a build to create ... uhm...  let's say "Mystic Missile," in case there are any lawyers about.

 

Don't forget using Based on ECV, or using a mental power as the base of the build:  that good ol' Line of Sight that comes along with it eliminates range modifier penalties, helping to make those CSLs much more useful.   Don't forget that drawback to the that Line of Sight, either:  you have to be able to see them.   One quick non-transparent Barrier and your power is useless for a bit.  

 

 

Hope something here helped!

 

 

Duke

 

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Something to keep in mind is that Hero is a lot better at valuing combat abilities than, well most fiction.  What seems like a low-end power in a book or other game actually can be quite powerful, and "this never misses" is one of those things that is more powerful than some writers seem to grok.

[Duke Bushido]

Amen.

[steriaca]

Prehaps this is an attack with a Trigger advantage. The trigger may be "when your character wishes it to happen". Trigger, of course, needs not roll to attack, only a target to activate the trigger. Considering who I believe has that attack, he is a nasty piece of boy-raping, boy-killing French Crusader asshole.

 

As for the "Imaginary Numbers" place, if you have access to Hero System Advance Player's Guide 2, check out pages 27-28 (Extradimentinal Spaces power), and pages 32-34 (Object Creation). I recommend getting both books, even if everything is optional.

[Doc Democracy]

I think your biggest issue is going to be that the fundamental principles of FATE and HERO pull in different directions.  They rely on different tropes to do their work.

 

HERO is, at heart, a gamist style game seeking to emulate heroic action.  FATE is a narrativist game, also seeking to emulate heroic fiction.  Saying that, it is obvious you need to focus on the heroic fiction element.

 

The big issue with the setting is that it will be hard-wired into FATE mechanics and so there is likely to be disconnects in how things get done.  Personally, I think you need to step away from the mechanics of how FATE is doing something and ask yourself what you need to happen in-game.

 

With "Mystic Eyes of Distortion" you started by asking how to make an attack that cannot miss.  Come to us with how characters would experience this power and ask how HERO would model that.

 

I am familiar with FATE but not settings, FATE never struck me as a system that used absolutes either, so it might even be worth thinking through where the chance to fail came in FATE....

 

Doc

[Spence]

4 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

I think your biggest issue is going to be that the fundamental principles of FATE and HERO pull in different directions.  They rely on different tropes to do their work.

 

HERO is, at heart, a gamist style game seeking to emulate heroic action.  FATE is a narrativist game, also seeking to emulate heroic fiction.  Saying that, it is obvious you need to focus on the heroic fiction element.

 

The big issue with the setting is that it will be hard-wired into FATE mechanics and so there is likely to be disconnects in how things get done.  Personally, I think you need to step away from the mechanics of how FATE is doing something and ask yourself what you need to happen in-game.

 

With "Mystic Eyes of Distortion" you started by asking how to make an attack that cannot miss.  Come to us with how characters would experience this power and ask how HERO would model that.

 

I am familiar with FATE but not settings, FATE never struck me as a system that used absolutes either, so it might even be worth thinking through where the chance to fail came in FATE....

 

Doc

Are you talking about FATE as in the anime, or FATE the game system? 

 

If you are referring to the FATE game system, then yes. 

 

But if you are referring to the anime, then I am confused.  Anime battles are very cinematic and HERO is one of the few systems that can show well in duplicating their effects IMO.  Maybe not all, but a good portion while retaining a good feel and level of effect session to session in game.

 

The FATE system is very lite, almost too lite IMO.

 

[Doc Democracy]

Ah!  Spot the man who does not know Anime (me!!).

 

Did I jump into this before I really knew what it was about?

 

If we are talking comic book translating into game mechanics then there is a whole new set of issues.  Not least that comic books have no balance requirements beyond the needs of the story as far as the author is concerned.  Players never live according to narrative rules and never only use powers for the good of the story.

[Lucius]

On 11/27/2019 at 12:03 AM, steriaca said:

Prehaps this is an attack with a Trigger advantage. The trigger may be "when your character wishes it to happen". Trigger, of course, needs not roll to attack, only a target to activate the trigger.

 

Since when???
 

What makes you think a Triggered attack does not require an attack roll?

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says you just triggered Lucius

 

[steriaca]

5 hours ago, Lucius said:

 

Since when???
 

What makes you think a Triggered attack does not require an attack roll?

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says you just triggered Lucius

 

I have to look it up, but I thought that it auto-hits once the trigger is activated.

 

Or maybe it is because most trigger attacks are also usually have the explosive or area of effect advantages, and I am glossing over "hit a hex".

 

Generally speaking, landmines don't miss offen.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

7 hours ago, steriaca said:

I have to look it up, but I thought that it auto-hits once the trigger is activated.

 

Or maybe it is because most trigger attacks are also usually have the explosive or area of effect advantages, and I am glossing over "hit a hex".

 

Generally speaking, landmines don't miss offen.

Both FRED and 6e1 have the sentence "The character makes the Attack Roll needed to hit a target with the power when the Trigger activates, not when he sets up the power. ".  FRED page 271, 6e1 page 351. 

I can easily understand the landmine confusion, though. 

[Hastur]

To clarify: yes this Fate is the anime not the RPG.

 

On 11/26/2019 at 7:20 PM, Duke Bushido said:

Some of the more common tactics include butt loads of CSLs and that old favorite: Area of Effect: Single HEX.

Thanks for the suggestion, that's probably the best solution.

 

As for GM permission, none of the powers here are for me, the GM was having me help him build powers for NPCs and make other players powers more accurate to the setting, so for the most part it should be ok as long as it makes the power work the way its supposed to and it functions in the confines of HERO.

 

I built a character that has no innate magic with the intent of side stepping my lack of knowledge about the setting, he's just a super intelligent person that discovered "mana" called it "Metaphasic Radiation" and thinks he can use it to make the world a better place... Long description short the GM let me make a Power Ranger... After the first session though, it was realized my character seemed a lot stronger than everyone else's, and I asked to go over someone's character sheet to compare and see if i missed something, and I ended up going over their stats and powers and showing them and the GM how they could build the same character effectively but saving over 100 points for new stuff. And henceforth, I have been helping the GM tool abilities for stuff.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Hastur

[sentry0]

23 hours ago, Hastur said:

To clarify: yes this Fate is the anime not the RPG.

 

Thanks for the suggestion, that's probably the best solution.

 

As for GM permission, none of the powers here are for me, the GM was having me help him build powers for NPCs and make other players powers more accurate to the setting, so for the most part it should be ok as long as it makes the power work the way its supposed to and it functions in the confines of HERO.

 

I built a character that has no innate magic with the intent of side stepping my lack of knowledge about the setting, he's just a super intelligent person that discovered "mana" called it "Metaphasic Radiation" and thinks he can use it to make the world a better place... Long description short the GM let me make a Power Ranger... After the first session though, it was realized my character seemed a lot stronger than everyone else's, and I asked to go over someone's character sheet to compare and see if i missed something, and I ended up going over their stats and powers and showing them and the GM how they could build the same character effectively but saving over 100 points for new stuff. And henceforth, I have been helping the GM tool abilities for stuff.

 

It's never a bad idea to have a HERO Sherpa for new players when it comes to builds.  I guess that's you 👍