Theorycrafting: Why do we need both Darkness and Flash? Why not one Power for both?

[Chris Goodwin]

I've been working on some house rules, and one in particular has led me down a path, to wonder why we need both a Darkness and a Flash Power.  For starters, both of those Powers have the same base cost for the initial Sense Group (5 for targeting, 3 for nontargeting), and the same additional cost to add one Sense or Sense Group (targeting: +10 per group / +5 per sense; nontargeting +5 per group / +3 per sense).  

 

If you were to take No Area (-1/4) and Usable As Attack on Darkness, you would effectively have something like a Flash that lasts as long as it is maintained for.  In fact, Usable As Attack specifically calls out Darkness as its use case.  

 

So... why not combine them into a single Power?  My tentative name for it is Obscure.  Ranged, Single Target, Constant.  Senses and sense groups are as per the current common cost for Darkness and Flash.   The character can buy up the power level -- duration?  Intensity?  I'm not sure what.  Maybe both?  5 points per +1 to either.  Costs END to maintain; when the user stops spending END (which could be immediately), Obscure stops affecting the target at the end of that Segment, +1 Segment per +1 to power level.  An Obscure bought to 0 END Cost would require some way for the target to stop being affected, as per normal for these kinds of Powers.

 

Flash Defense would be renamed to Sensory Protection, and would protect against Obscure.  If a character has enough Sensory Protection to reduce the Intensity to 0, then instead of being completely blinded (or whatever), they instead take a PER penalty equal to half the Intensity (the penalty reduced by 1 per additional point of SP), and those penalties go away completely when the Obscure drops.  If the target has some Sensory Protection, but not enough to reduce it to 0, then each point reduces the number of Segments they're affected. 

 

Example: a target with 10 points of Sight Group Sensory Protection is hit with an intensity 12 Sight Group Obscure; when the attacker stops maintaining it, they're still blinded for an additional 2 Segments.  Another target with 15 points of Sight Group SP would instead take a (Intensity 12 / 2 = 6; SP 15 - Intensity 12 = 3; 6 - 3 = 3)  -3 penalty to Sight PER while the Obscure is maintained, and none at all when it drops.  

 

Comments?  Thoughts?  

[Duke Bushido]

Works for me.

 

Honestly, after Change Environment came along, I always felt that Darkness should have been folded into that.  However, earlier editions weren't fully-priviledged to do more than tinker with SFX and various environmental vulnerabilities.  With the newer editions allowing CE to have mechanical effects against characters, I find Darkness even more suited to be just another CE build.  

 

However, there's no reason that, given the ability to buy up the duration, it wouldn't work just as well as a "kind of long-lasting Flash."

 

 

[Chris Goodwin]

26 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

However, there's no reason that, given the ability to buy up the duration, it wouldn't work just as well as a "kind of long-lasting Flash."

 

The house rule I was looking at was noting that some Powers (primarily the Mental Powers) are Instant, but the user can spend END to keep them active at the same level, so they're more like a Constant Power.  Some other Instant Powers have the option to cost END to maintain, and at least a couple (Aid and Drain in particular) have an either/or kind of thing between that and their normal fade rate. 

 

My thought, and the house rule, was what if we broke that out as a separate duration type.  The general notion is that it applies to the Mental Powers, Aid, and Drain, and then I thought, what about Flash?  And the instant realization that if you do that, you almost have Darkness, and you can make Darkness into a sort-of Flash by making it Usable As Attack.  Then I checked the costs of Darkness and Flash... and here we are. 

 

[Chris Goodwin]

Oh, hey.  We have Entangle with the option to block senses as well.  Instead of that, you'd link Obscure to it if that's what you wanted.  If you made your Entangle Costs END to Maintain, then the Obscure would automatically act as above.  If you didn't, then the Obscure would completely drop when the Entangle is broken.  

 

And you could apply the Instant Limitation to Obscure to essentially make it into almost-Flash.  (Side note: why is Flash still a diced effect, count the BODY?)

[Duke Bushido]

9 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

Oh, hey.  We have Entangle with the option to block senses as well.  Instead of that, you'd link Obscure to it if that's what you wanted.  If you made your Entangle Costs END to Maintain, then the Obscure would automatically act as above.  If you didn't, then the Obscure would completely drop when the Entangle is broken.  

 

And you could apply the Instant Limitation to Obscure to essentially make it into almost-Flash.

 

I really like _all_ of this!  

 

 

9 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 (Side note: why is Flash still a diced effect, count the BODY?)

 

Habit?  

 

The old ones die hard, I hear....

 

We could argue that it keeping it thus was an intentional decision to make it a distinct and separate thing from Darkness.  More likely it's a case of "if it ain't broke...."

 

Over the years I have toyed-- off and on-- with the idea of making the results of Flash a straight-up negative modifier to your PER roll that dropped by one per Phase (and sometimes Segment).  Made for some interesting results, and I was pleased with the random successes and equally-random way that people recovered (and gave those who bought up a PER roll via skill levels or what-have-you a chance to strut their spent points  )    But Flash doesn't come up often enough as a PC ability in our games to make really setting down and toying with it a worthwhile pastime, I'm afraid...  

 

 

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

My first concern would be viability of characters with no Sensory Protection or exotic senses.  Take the example of Obscure Sight 1 (5 AP).  If I hit somebody with no Sensory Protection and pay 1 END a phase, they stay blind for the rest of the fight.  There's nothing they can do but pray somebody else Stunned or KOs me.  That's frankly absurd for 5 AP. 

Related to this is END scaling.  If I'd instead bought Obscure Sight 12 (60 AP), I'd be paying 6 END a phase and the benefit of the added cost wouldn't apply until I stopped spending END.  Which is a little strange. 

 

My next concern would be verisimilitude.  I buy Sight Sensory Protection 12, defined as sunglasses.  My friend doesn't buy Sensory Protection.  An evil wizard puts us in an Obscure Sight 8 AOE defined as magical darkness.  I, the person with sunglasses, see better in the dark than my friend who is not wearing sunglasses. 

In general, common Flash Defense SFX don't make much sense as defenses against common Darkness SFX.  By merging Flash and Darkness, you get a lot of oddball behavior. 

 

 

I do agree with the sentiment though.  I think I'd personally work the opposite direction you did though. 

Ditch Darkness.  Tell people to build it as Flash, AOE, Constant, NND.  Or prebuild it as, say, 12 points per Targeting Sense, 7 per Non-Targeting Sense, definition of uncommon but existent defense (as per +1 NND/AVAD) and purchase of AoE mandatory. 

[Cassandra]

5 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

I've been working on some house rules, and one in particular has led me down a path, to wonder why we need both a Darkness and a Flash Power.  For starters, both of those Powers have the same base cost for the initial Sense Group (5 for targeting, 3 for nontargeting), and the same additional cost to add one Sense or Sense Group (targeting: +10 per group / +5 per sense; nontargeting +5 per group / +3 per sense).  

 

If you were to take No Area (-1/4) and Usable As Attack on Darkness, you would effectively have something like a Flash that lasts as long as it is maintained for.  In fact, Usable As Attack specifically calls out Darkness as its use case.  

 

So... why not combine them into a single Power?  My tentative name for it is Obscure.  Ranged, Single Target, Constant.  Senses and sense groups are as per the current common cost for Darkness and Flash.   The character can buy up the power level -- duration?  Intensity?  I'm not sure what.  Maybe both?  5 points per +1 to either.  Costs END to maintain; when the user stops spending END (which could be immediately), Obscure stops affecting the target at the end of that Segment, +1 Segment per +1 to power level.  An Obscure bought to 0 END Cost would require some way for the target to stop being affected, as per normal for these kinds of Powers.

 

Flash Defense would be renamed to Sensory Protection, and would protect against Obscure.  If a character has enough Sensory Protection to reduce the Intensity to 0, then instead of being completely blinded (or whatever), they instead take a PER penalty equal to half the Intensity (the penalty reduced by 1 per additional point of SP), and those penalties go away completely when the Obscure drops.  If the target has some Sensory Protection, but not enough to reduce it to 0, then each point reduces the number of Segments they're affected. 

 

Example: a target with 10 points of Sight Group Sensory Protection is hit with an intensity 12 Sight Group Obscure; when the attacker stops maintaining it, they're still blinded for an additional 2 Segments.  Another target with 15 points of Sight Group SP would instead take a (Intensity 12 / 2 = 6; SP 15 - Intensity 12 = 3; 6 - 3 = 3)  -3 penalty to Sight PER while the Obscure is maintained, and none at all when it drops.  

 

Comments?  Thoughts?  

 

 

Some people have Flash Defense, and some have UV/IR Sight, but not many have both.

[Tjack]

23 minutes ago, Cassandra said:

 

 

Some people have Flash Defense, and some have UV/IR Sight, but not many have both.

If you’re a GM who likes to play out the more real world byproducts of certain powers. (Without worrying about strict point values)  Flash attacks are also very noticeable at distance triggering possible Perception rolls. (I had a player use one as a distress flare once) and can have a lingering after effect on the victim such as seeing spots for a time. Darkness would do neither of these effects. For me it’s all about the special effect.

 

     P.S.   Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night!

[Greywind]

35 minutes ago, Tjack said:

If you’re a GM who likes to play out the more real world byproducts of certain powers. (Without worrying about strict point values)  Flash attacks are also very noticeable at distance triggering possible Perception rolls. (I had a player use one as a distress flare once) and can have a lingering after effect on the victim such as seeing spots for a time. Darkness would do neither of these effects. For me it’s all about the special effect.

 

     P.S.   Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night!

 

And it would totally depend upon how the power is defined.

[PhilFleischmann]

I think the distinction is the actual effect.  Flash affects the sensory organs of the target, whereas Darkness affects the environment.  If I've got sunglasses to protect me from bright lights being shines in my eyes, that's not going to help me see through thick fog and smoke.  If I can smell with the accuracy of a bloodhound, I'm going to be affected differently by having raw garlic shoved up my nose as opposed to having a strong wind blow away all traces of scent.

 

Flash and Darkness do different things.  I think they need to remain different powers.

 

However!  You could certainly make the case for folding Darkness into Change Environment, as Duke Bushido mentions.  In essence, that's what Darkness is - a change to the environment.

[IndianaJoe3]

6 hours ago, Cassandra said:

Some people have Flash Defense, and some have UV/IR Sight, but not many have both.

 

Depends on the player and the group. "Photoreactive visor" (Flash Defense) and, "Thermal Imaging" (IR Vision) are both part of my standard, "Combat Helmet" powers.

[Scott Ruggels]

10 hours ago, Cassandra said:

 

 

Some people have Flash Defense, and some have UV/IR Sight, but not many have both.

I had a character with both. Military power suit. 

[zslane]

I’d like to see someone take this to its logical conclusion and deconstruct all the powers into their indivisible atomic elements, e.g., Damage, Move, Protect, Obscure, Sense, Change, etc., and write a new Champions rule book in those terms. So, for instance, there wouldn’t be a Flight power; instead you would put “Move, No Contact With a Surface Required, Has Turn Mode, etc.” on your character sheet.

 

I think it would be highly instructive to see how well such a game would sell, especially to newcomers.

[Chris Goodwin]

Admittedly it needs more work.  Some details are left to work out.  Like the intensity value relating to duration, for instance; maybe it should have a separate duration value different from the intensity.  

 

It also suffers slightly from the "powers into other powers" issue that I complained about in the "What Happened to Hero?" thread.  

 

[Grailknight]

12 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

Admittedly it needs more work.  Some details are left to work out.  Like the intensity value relating to duration, for instance; maybe it should have a separate duration value different from the intensity.  

 

It also suffers slightly from the "powers into other powers" issue that I complained about in the "What Happened to Hero?" thread.  

 

 

Was wondering when you'd notice that.

[Chris Goodwin]

It looks like Costs END To Maintain does more or less exactly what I wanted, with the possible exception that when you stop spending END it falls completely rather than reverting to whatever its original fade conditions were.  Applying it to an area effect Flash seems like it would exactly match Darkness, with the exception that enough Flash Defense would stop it completely regardless of how long it's maintained for. 

 

[BNakagawa]

One issue I find is that it will make life harder for GMs.

 

Currently, if you look at a PCs character sheet and see flash, you have a pretty good idea of what it's going to be used for. If you see Darkness, you have a pretty good idea of what it's going to be used for.

 

If you unify them, then you have to squint and parse all the conditional limitations and adders and figure out where the player is going with it. I'm not saying that you can't stack modifiers and weird advantages on Flash or Darkness, but they become a little more obvious when you're trying to squeeze some cheese by the GM. With this approach, every usage of the power needs to be scrutinized...