6E Sell/unsell on no double damage cap

[Grailknight]

 

1 hour ago, Vanguard said:

 

Never.

 

But that's probably because we never had a 60 STR character in a Heroic level game so it was never an issue.

 

And the 60 STR character's we had in a superheroic games, never used penknives and also never used "real weapons" so the doubling rule never came into effect.

 

Am also not really sure why you thought I agree with the whole penknife thing to begin with as we seem to be on the same page here . . . 

 

Sorry, those last parts weren't pertaining to you

[Hugh Neilson]

15 hours ago, Grailknight said:

I'm glad you can see this. At some point a weapon just can't do more damage and still be considered a small HKA.  Sinking battleships with pocket knives just is within the scope of the game  but you should have to pay more than 5 points for the KA. Put the common sense back into the rules.

 

How do you inflict that damage with a 5 point HKA?  You don't.  You need to add STR, or skill levels, or martial arts, or Deadly Blow, or Weaponmaster.  You have to use something else which cost points in order to do the kind of damage needed to sink the battleship.

 

Since I do  not see a battleship on 6e v2 p 171, let's sub in a medium spaceship.  10 defenses, and 20 - 40 BOD.  Let's up the defenses to 16 (Tank Armor, other than the front) and go with 35 BOD.  And we'll only add STR, since the example is always "Hulk with a penknife".  To reliably do damage with a KA, he needs to average at least 18 BOD, so we'll set that at 5d6+1 HKA, average 18.5 BOD.  He'll average 2.5 BOD per hit, so it will take 14 phases to sink the battleship (which we will define as "reduce to 0 BOD"). 

 

That is too long, though.  We want him to sink it in a single hit, or maybe three hits.  For 3 hits, he will need to get 12+ BOD through on each hit, so he needs to average 28 BOD.  We need an 8d6+1 KA, so he needs STR 120.  29 BOD on average punches through 13 BOD.  To sink it in one shot, he needs to do 50 BOD.  A 14d6+1 HKA will average 50 on the nose, so he will often need only a single hit, provided he has a 210 STR.

 

But if he has a 120 STR, he can average 24 BOD with a normal attack, passing 8 BOD through per hit and sinking the battleship in 5 mighty blows, instead of 3.  If he has STR 210, he does 42d6, and 2 hits will still reliably sink the battleship, although he needs a really good hit to manage it in one mighty blow.

 

So how much extra utility did that 5 point penknife actually add?

 

15 hours ago, Grailknight said:

I am going to agree to disagree and leave it here rather than rehash old arguments. It won't affect either of our games. But I'll leave with one question. How many times between 1st and 6th editions did you ever complain about not being able to have 60 STR penknife man be a thing?

 

How often did Brick players get ticked off that BlasterMan has a swiss army Multipower with an attack for every occasion, while he has to close and use normal damage STR every time?  More than once, to put it mildly.  BlasterMan goes from "only normal damage" to "select normal or KA" at a cost of 20% of his Blast cost.  Why does Brick have to spend 50% of his STR cost?

 

How many times did you ever see a Super with a 3d6 KA and a 15 STR in a 12DC game?  No, they all had a 2d6 KA and 30 STR, because that was WAY more efficient pre-6e thanks to Figured Characteristics, and is still more efficient in 6e, though not by the same margin.

 

Note also that, in 1e, there was no doubling rule.  It was added in 2e.

 

There is certainly a balance to be struck.  Look at Enemies 1 and 2, and you will see many Bricks with a 1d6 KA.  Why?  Because they were drafted under 1e rules, and rewritten under 2e rules, without considering the impact of the Doubling Rule.  This was especially obvious for the Monster, whose KA went from something to be feared to something laughable.  But matching the HKA AP precisely to STR is not "clearly superior", at least not IMO.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

Question for the historians around here: 
I seem to only see this argument come up in the context of HKAs.  Is there a particular reason it doesn't come up in the context of Hand Attack?  I have my guesses, but I'd much prefer first-hand answers. 

[Hugh Neilson]

2 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Question for the historians around here: 
I seem to only see this argument come up in the context of HKAs.  Is there a particular reason it doesn't come up in the context of Hand Attack?  I have my guesses, but I'd much prefer first-hand answers. 

 

In part, I suspect, because any source of added damage to HKAs was always prohibited from more than doubling it, where no similar restriction was applied across the board to Hand Attacks. 

 

In part, I think, because we are used to many more items adding to STR (like Martial Arts, say) so Hand Attack seemed like less of a big deal.

 

In part, I'd wager, because adding HA to STR does not change the type of damage (although there have been various different rules over the editions for advantaged HAs).

[dsatow]

Actually the rules for HA before 6th was the same as HA.  It was just no one ever bothered applying the rule and it didn't cause a problem in many games.

[Hugh Neilson]

2 hours ago, dsatow said:

Actually the rules for HA before 6th was the same as HA.  It was just no one ever bothered applying the rule and it didn't cause a problem in many games.

 

I think the rule was applied to normal damage weapons.  It was not applied to HA by default - many characters had a small HA which added to much higher regular STR damage.

[ScottishFox]

On 1/16/2020 at 12:22 PM, Grailknight said:

60 STR, 1d6 KA  Man can do 5d6 KA and 12d6 normal damage.

15 STR, 4d6 KA Man can do  5d6 KA and 3d6 normal damage.

 

Both cost the same but one of these  has better options available.

 

Succinctly and elegantly demonstrated.  Well done, sir.

 

I also find that immersion takes a terrible hit if Throg the Mauler can do 3d6+1 KA with a salad fork because he's strong.

[ScottishFox]

On 1/19/2020 at 1:52 PM, Hugh Neilson said:

 

In part, I suspect, because any source of added damage to HKAs was always prohibited from more than doubling it, where no similar restriction was applied across the board to Hand Attacks. 

 

In part, I think, because we are used to many more items adding to STR (like Martial Arts, say) so Hand Attack seemed like less of a big deal.

 

In part, I'd wager, because adding HA to STR does not change the type of damage (although there have been various different rules over the editions for advantaged HAs).

 

In my Fantasy HERO campaigns the double-damage limit applies to normal damage weapons as well.

 

Tiamat can not pick up a tiny human club and proceed to whack someone for 17d6 normal damage with it.  She can do 6d6 blunt with it or forego the useless thing and just go back to stepping on people.

[Hugh Neilson]

7 hours ago, ScottishFox said:

 

In my Fantasy HERO campaigns the double-damage limit applies to normal damage weapons as well.

 

Two words:

 

Brass knuckles.

 

You feel it is more immersive if Throg stops to removes his brass knuckles, or iron gauntlets, because he's strong, so his bare fists will do more damage?

[ScottishFox]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Two words:

 

Brass knuckles.

 

You feel it is more immersive if Throg stops to removes his brass knuckles, or iron gauntlets, because he's strong, so his bare fists will do more damage?

 

Brass knuckles are going to be around 6 DEF - guestimating from other the DEF chart in book 2.

 

So if they are a 3d6 HA weapon with a low str min (7 ish) then he's going to max them out at 22 STR.  If he's substantially stronger than that he won't have to take them off he'll just destroy them after a couple of swings.

 

I've allowed players to exceed the cap at the cost of damaging or destroying their weapon (The Hulk hitting Hulk Hogan with a folding chair for example).  That chair isn't going to be available for a second swing.

[Lord Liaden]

For supers games, I'm liking getting rid of the cap on double damage for HKA. It equalizes the Active Points devoted to a particular attack. Whether you have a 4D6 HKA without any STR adds, or 1D6 HKA backed by 45 STR, you're still spending 60 AP to get the same damage. For that 60 AP you can buy 4D6 RKA and the benefit of Range... but without all the other uses for STR. Overall I find it pretty balanced.

[Hugh Neilson]

54 minutes ago, ScottishFox said:

 

Brass knuckles are going to be around 6 DEF - guestimating from other the DEF chart in book 2.

 

So if they are a 3d6 HA weapon with a low str min (7 ish) then he's going to max them out at 22 STR.  If he's substantially stronger than that he won't have to take them off he'll just destroy them after a couple of swings.

 

I've allowed players to exceed the cap at the cost of damaging or destroying their weapon (The Hulk hitting Hulk Hogan with a folding chair for example).  That chair isn't going to be available for a second swing.

 

Yes, brass knuckles that buckle after one or two hard punches are much more immersive, realistic and consistent with cinematic reality...🙄

[Ninja-Bear]

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

For supers games, I'm liking getting rid of the cap on double damage for HKA. It equalizes the Active Points devoted to a particular attack. Whether you have a 4D6 HKA without any STR adds, or 1D6 HKA backed by 45 STR, you're still spending 60 CP to get the same damage. For that 60 CP you can buy 4D6 RKA and the benefit of Range... but without all the other uses for STR. Overall I find it pretty balanced.

Good point LL.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

For supers games, I'm liking getting rid of the cap on double damage for HKA. It equalizes the Active Points devoted to a particular attack. Whether you have a 4D6 HKA without any STR adds, or 1D6 HKA backed by 45 STR, you're still spending 60 CP to get the same damage. For that 60 CP you can buy 4D6 RKA and the benefit of Range... but without all the other uses for STR. Overall I find it pretty balanced.

50CP to get 4d6 HKA, since everyone starts with 10CP of STR. 

 

My sticking point is the bizarre relationship between HA and HKA compared to EB and RKA.  EB and RKA get range, STR doesn't add, there's no inherent Limitation.  HA gets no range, STR adds, and it has a built in -1/2 (or -1/4).  HKA gets no range, STR adds, and it has no inherent Limitation (WHY?). 

If HKA got the same Lim that HA does, it'd immediately open up the concept space again.  STR 45 HKA 1d6 Man would pay more than STR 15 HKA 3d6 Man, which is correct because STR 45 HKA 1d6 Man is getting more flexibility. 

[ScottishFox]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Yes, brass knuckles that buckle after one or two hard punches are much more immersive, realistic and consistent with cinematic reality...🙄

 

We'll just have to disagree on this one.  The guy in the example would have to be nearly as strong as an ogre to damage the brass knuckles.

 

I'm supposed to let these things take more damage than the larger more structurally sound weapons like maces or axes?  I've seen those larger weapons shatter on plate armor helms or pauldrons.

 

I would totally agree with you in a super setting, but in a Fantasy HERO campaign brass knuckles are a toy compared the weapons being used and giving it the same durability as a small mace, short sword, etc., is pretty generous as it is.

 

Your eyeroll hurts my soul.  I'm going to go watch supergirl now.  😐

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

50CP to get 4d6 HKA, since everyone starts with 10CP of STR.

 

Right, I meant Active Points. Apologies for the brain fart.

 

  

1 hour ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

My sticking point is the bizarre relationship between HA and HKA compared to EB and RKA.  EB and RKA get range, STR doesn't add, there's no inherent Limitation.  HA gets no range, STR adds, and it has a built in -1/2 (or -1/4).  HKA gets no range, STR adds, and it has no inherent Limitation (WHY?). 

If HKA got the same Lim that HA does, it'd immediately open up the concept space again.  STR 45 HKA 1d6 Man would pay more than STR 15 HKA 3d6 Man, which is correct because STR 45 HKA 1d6 Man is getting more flexibility. 

 

Conceptually, I think it's a matter of what you're comparing them to. HKA is being compared to RKA. HKA doesn't have range, but it does have the capacity to increase with a character's STR; these two factors can be considered to balance each other, hence they cost the same.

 

HA is being compared to STR, not EB. One could buy X AP of HA, or X AP of additional STR. Damage increase would be the same, but STR provides other benefits, so the Limitation is levied on HA.

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

7 hours ago, ScottishFox said:

We'll just have to disagree on this one.

 

Seems like it.

7 hours ago, ScottishFox said:

The guy in the example would have to be nearly as strong as an ogre to damage the brass knuckles.

 

I'm supposed to let these things take more damage than the larger more structurally sound weapons like maces or axes?  I've seen those larger weapons shatter on plate armor helms or pauldrons.

 

He'd have to be slightly into the legendary STR category (22 STR IIRC).  That's not out of line for most Fantasy games.

 

The axe and mace are larger.  Are they more structurally sound?  The brass knuckles are a lump of metal wrapped around the hand.  They're metal, so that's a decent defense.  How do they break?  An axe can be blunted, and typically has a wooden haft. The mace also has a haft thinner than the business end.

 

That HA could easily come from an armoured gauntlet.  I'm supposed to expect that will break if its wearer hits someone hard?  That's the quality of armour?  Or I am supposed to believe that being hit with that metal around the fist will hurt the same, or less, than being hit with the flesh and bone underneath?

 

 

[ScottishFox]

57 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

He'd have to be slightly into the legendary STR category (22 STR IIRC).  That's not out of line for most Fantasy games.

 

22 would just max out the knuckles.

 

It would take 27+ to consistently damage them and that is clearly in the super-human range.

[Hugh Neilson]

9 hours ago, ScottishFox said:

 

22 would just max out the knuckles.

 

It would take 27+ to consistently damage them and that is clearly in the super-human range.

 

Legendary caps out at 30, which falls short of super-human.

[ScottishFox]

14 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Legendary caps out at 30, which falls short of super-human.

 

I don't mean on a chart in the game.  I mean in the sense that a 27 STR would allow for a 2080 pound deadlift which is more than 2x the current world record super-human.

 

I would expect someone twice as strong as the current steroided out modern super-nutriented monster of a man to be able to mangle brass knuckles (if he could even get the puny things on his giant meaty fingers).

[Hugh Neilson]

The lift chart has always been a challenge, which is why many modify it for Heroic games. 

 

I would expect someone twice as strong as the current world record weightlifter to be quite Legendary, and to hit a lot harder than a typical person.  That does not mean I think he would crush brass knuckles if he hit someone, or that he would hit harder without them than with them.  If that "twice as strong" fellow was a baseball player, would you expect him to be a better hitter without a bat than with one?

[ScottishFox]

5 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

The lift chart has always been a challenge, which is why many modify it for Heroic games. 

 

I would expect someone twice as strong as the current world record weightlifter to be quite Legendary, and to hit a lot harder than a typical person.  That does not mean I think he would crush brass knuckles if he hit someone, or that he would hit harder without them than with them.  If that "twice as strong" fellow was a baseball player, would you expect him to be a better hitter without a bat than with one?

 

Is he willing to shatter his weapon as he exceeds the bounds of mere mortals?  Then I'm on-board and he can exceed the cap and say farewell to his baseball bat.

 

Granted a maxed out baseball bat swing (8d6?) would kill a normie in 2 hits.  Exceeding that could easily lead to the bat breaking.

[Hugh Neilson]

I'm pretty sure that a home run hitter major leaguer would stand a fair chance of taking my head off with one swing (of course, that is a head hit, so he gets extra damage).  A 10 STR normal can certainly beat someone to death with a baseball bat.

 

Is the current weightlifting champion (or the gold medal boxer) Legendary?  Probably not - I don't think we get a Legendary any more often than one per generation, and likely not even that, so not one per Olympics.  But a cinematic reality fantasy party could include several Legendary characters.

[ScottishFox]

On 1/23/2020 at 9:13 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

If that "twice as strong" fellow was a baseball player, would you expect him to be a better hitter without a bat than with one?

 

No, because a baseball bat is going to max out at like 8d6 or higher.  Nobody is walking around with a 40 strength.

 

How about Thor doing a haymaker on The Hulk (16d6 or more).  How much extra damage does a pair of soon-to-be-liquefied brass knuckles get him?

[Hugh Neilson]

On 1/28/2020 at 7:04 AM, ScottishFox said:

 

No, because a baseball bat is going to max out at like 8d6 or higher.  Nobody is walking around with a 40 strength.

 

How about Thor doing a haymaker on The Hulk (16d6 or more).  How much extra damage does a pair of soon-to-be-liquefied brass knuckles get him?

 

Why wouldn't a 20 STR (or 30 STR) character doing a haymaker do more damage with those brass knuckles than without them?

 

Doesn't Thor do more damage hitting with that hammer than without it?  Why would the brass knuckles be different? 

 

And would Thor do LESS damage with the brass knuckles than without them?  That is what happens if we enforce the doubling rule, isn't it?