Narosia Sea of Tears Errata?

[Tywyll]

So I picked up a copy of Narosia last night and its really cool. However, I was wondering if there was errata for it as I noticed some issues (specifically the point costs of the Heroic Talents which almost always seemed to be 6 no matter what the AP or limitations actually were)?

 

@Legendsmiths

[Legendsmiths]

Thank you. I’m glad you liked it. 
 

They reach those costs by design but not by fiat. You can see all the glorious details in the HeroDesigner files. 
 

As for errata, I’ve got a couple of notes but other than the guild status perk table I don’t recall reports of anything significant. 
 

One of my objectives with Narosia was to simplify the presentation of Fantasy Hero by reducing a lot of repetitive power modifiers and such. I had to balance that with clarity with respect to how Hero is communicated. That’s why it might appear different than other Hero books but hopefully it’s not too off-putting or confusing, especially since that’s the opposite of my intent. 

[Tywyll]

7 hours ago, Legendsmiths said:

Thank you. I’m glad you liked it. 
 

They reach those costs by design but not by fiat. You can see all the glorious details in the HeroDesigner files. 

 

Sadly those weren't included with the Amazon book I purchased.

 

But are you saying that powers like:

Champion of the Sun, 94 AP with -2 total limitations, 6 Real Points

Reveal the Past, 85 AP, -4 total limitations, 3 real points

Eyes of Aelos, 32 AP, no limitations, 6 real points

 

Are intentional? If so, how are these real costs figured? 

 

 

7 hours ago, Legendsmiths said:

 

As for errata, I’ve got a couple of notes but other than the guild status perk table I don’t recall reports of anything significant. 
 

One of my objectives with Narosia was to simplify the presentation of Fantasy Hero by reducing a lot of repetitive power modifiers and such. I had to balance that with clarity with respect to how Hero is communicated. That’s why it might appear different than other Hero hopefully it’s not too off-putting or confusing, especially since that’s the opposite of my intent. 

 

No, for the most part, it's pretty clear and straight forward, and I dig it. It's just a few things are confusing like how the costs of the Heroic Abilities are figured is leaving me scratching my head. 

[Legendsmiths]

1 hour ago, Tywyll said:

Champion of the Sun, 94 AP with -2 total limitations, 6 Real Points

Reveal the Past, 85 AP, -4 total limitations, 3 real points

Eyes of Aelos, 32 AP, no limitations, 6 real points

 

With respect to Heroic Abilities, sidebar at the start of that section (p. 134):

Quote

Hierophant Heroic Abilities are built as powers with a Real Point Cost Divisor of 5, with the exception of Defense powers. Players may not design additional powers in this manner. These are gifts of the Enaros and do not conform to the rules of man.

 

So they are built properly, we just apply a cost divisor to give it a sensible cost for heroic level games. You have to be a Hierophant to get these abilities in the first place, which is already a significant cost.

 

This cost multiplier optional rule (which is a Hero invention, not mine) is used extensively where appropriate to keep things at a manageable point level for heroic level characters. Magic items, signature items, and more.

 

The only major errata I'm aware of is the Starting Wealth table on p.193 and you'd only run into it if you started as a Guild Member. There is a column missing. It should be:

LEVEL      MONEY      SOCIAL       GUILD

1                +75s             +100s             +50s

2                +150s           +200s             +100s

3                +300s           +300s             +150s

4                +600s           +400s             +200s

5                +1,250s        +500s             +250s

6                +2,500s        +1,000s          +500s

7                +5,000s        +2,000s          --

8                +7,500s        +3,000s          --

9                +10,000s      +4,000s          --

10              +12,500s      +5,000s          --

 

You can pick up the HeroDesigner files here in the Hero Store. Every power, equipment, spell, orison and so on is included.

[Tywyll]

9 hours ago, Legendsmiths said:

 

With respect to Heroic Abilities, sidebar at the start of that section (p. 134):

 

Ah, I totally missed the side bar, and I see it only applies to the Hierophant abilities, which clarifies my next bit of confusion. Okay, I'm with you now. Is the justification for the discount on those abilities that they have big prerequisites before purchase?

 

 

9 hours ago, Legendsmiths said:

 

This cost multiplier optional rule (which is a Hero invention, not mine) is used extensively where appropriate to keep things at a manageable point level for heroic level characters. Magic items, signature items, and more.

 

Got it. 

 

I was unclear on normal magic items...are they supposed to cost CP? I know that signature items do. If a signature item is lost, you can unlink from it, do you get your CP back?

 

9 hours ago, Legendsmiths said:

The only major errata I'm aware of is the Starting Wealth table on p.193 and you'd only run into it if you started as a Guild Member. There is a column missing. It should be:

LEVEL      MONEY      SOCIAL       GUILD

1                +75s             +100s             +50s

2                +150s           +200s             +100s

3                +300s           +300s             +150s

4                +600s           +400s             +200s

5                +1,250s        +500s             +250s

6                +2,500s        +1,000s          +500s

7                +5,000s        +2,000s          --

8                +7,500s        +3,000s          --

9                +10,000s      +4,000s          --

10              +12,500s      +5,000s          --

 

You can pick up the HeroDesigner files here in the Hero Store. Every power, equipment, spell, orison and so on is included.

 

Thanks for the clarifications!

 

[Tywyll]

Can I ask another question about Attunement?

 

If a magic item were built 'normally' that didn't conform to the Narosia build rules, is there a rough guide for the amount of Attunement it should cost? Say an item that granted X points of skills or something? Or Enhanced Perception? I know there is the CP column in the magic item table, but that's adding to abilities you already have, not like a Magic Lockpick that grants secutiry +3, for example. How would I 'price' that?

 

Apologies if this explained and I've just missed it. 

[Legendsmiths]

Answering above questions:

 

1. yes, the cost of prerequisites to be a Hierophant are the justification for reduced cost (relative to normal Hero rules). 
 

2. Regular magic items have an attunement cost of 1-4 CP based o. The energy of the item (p 359)

 

3. You can unattune to a signature item. 
 

4. Skill bonus: basically a +1 to skill is 1 Energy (see blade of the acrobat p 362). I tried to make common effects like that line up smartly with the way Energy is calculated (and EFF and MAG). 
 

Skill bonus is facilitated by Aid with the Enchantment +2 advantage. Which basically works out to 1 energy per +1 skill

[Tywyll]

17 hours ago, Legendsmiths said:

Answering above questions:

 

1. yes, the cost of prerequisites to be a Hierophant are the justification for reduced cost (relative to normal Hero rules). 

 

Cool, cool.

 

17 hours ago, Legendsmiths said:

2. Regular magic items have an attunement cost of 1-4 CP based o. The energy of the item (p 359)

 

Is that 1 per 4 CP of the item? 

 

I guess I wasn't clear. Say I built an item as GM that was 60 Active Points, 30 Real Cost whose effect didn't neatly line up with an existing spell or the table in the magic item section...how many attunement should a PC pay to attune?

 

17 hours ago, Legendsmiths said:

3. You can unattune to a signature item. 

 

 

But if you do, do you regain the CP you spent on the item, or are they lost (like the old Independent Limitation)?

 

17 hours ago, Legendsmiths said:

 

4. Skill bonus: basically a +1 to skill is 1 Energy (see blade of the acrobat p 362). I tried to make common effects like that line up smartly with the way Energy is calculated (and EFF and MAG). 
 

Skill bonus is facilitated by Aid with the Enchantment +2 advantage. Which basically works out to 1 energy per +1 skill

 

Does granting the skill at base roll count as +1 to the skill, or can items only exist that boost skills you already possess (no Saddles that allow you to ride a horse, or ropes that grant climbing, for example)?

[Duke Bushido]

Pardon the interruption, but if I may ask a question of Legendsmiths:

 

I just got my paper copy (I prefer paper) a few days ago and hope to sit down and read it all at once over the July break from work.  Forgive me if this is answered in the book:  are the cards necessary to play the game? 

 

Thank you for your patience with the interruption. 

 

 

 

[Legendsmiths]

4 hours ago, Tywyll said:

Is that 1 per 4 CP of the item? 

 

I guess I wasn't clear. Say I built an item as GM that was 60 Active Points, 30 Real Cost whose effect didn't neatly line up with an existing spell or the table in the magic item section...how many attunement should a PC pay to attune?

 

1 per 3.

 

As for other powers, of course it's buried in a sidebar

"HERODESIGNER Building a Spell or Orison in HERODesigner requires a Cost Multiplier of 0.2 to calculate the ESS or MAG correctly. The only exception is the Power Dispel; it has a Cost Multiplier of 0.33 since Narosia uses the BODY value on the dice instead of the total value." So, that 30 real cost would result in an "energy" of 6. With an energy of 6, the cost of attunement would then be 2. The reason the energy cost is needed is if you were to try and dispel that object, then you would need to generate 6 BODY when you rolled your Dispel dice.

 

I spent a lot of time trying to build the system to assume the common abuses that can be made around character enhancements, especially with respect to Characteristic or Skill bumps. Be very mindful of that. The stock Hero rules end up making that way too cheap for the impact in a heroic game. For example, +4 SPD is only 40 active points and even with no limitations would be 8 energy (or EFF or MAG as a spell or orison). But, built with Aid, and Enchantment +2, that would cost 126 active points, and have a ESS of (using .2 mult) of 25 which is way beyond what wizards are capable of. Further, as an item (Boots of Speed let's say), this would also go beyond the maximum energy since 26 character points tops off the chart at 13 energy (meaning you could have boots that give +2 Speed, and that would be powerful--at the heroic level it certainly is).

 

To say it another way, break the rules with care. For most of the common effects there is a spell or orison that replicates it or it's an Item Enhancement.

 

Attunement Points

Points allocated to one item can be used to attune to a different item later, but once points are committed to item Attunement they cannot be used for any
other purpose. (p. 359)

 

Of course, it's your game. We just found during our campaigns that this made sense and made players think about whether they wanted to attune to an item in the first place.

 

Granting Skills

p. 266. You assume a characteristic of 0, so 3 points gets you a 9- roll. Build it up from there. When building items, it's an Item Enhancement, so getting Riding 12- for a magical saddle is 3 points for base skill of 9-, 6 points for +3 = 12- at a total of 9 character points. On the Item Enhancement table that's 5 energy.

 

Do I Need The Cards (Duke Bushido)

Of course you do The good news is you can print, cut, and put them in sleeves for pretty cheap. https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/140179/Narosia-Divine-Intervention-Cards

 

Seriously though, no you don't. The intent of the cards is to get the gods involved in your game. The gods are a big deal in Narosia and that's one of the things that sets the setting apart from other settings is HOW we get the gods involved in play. You could do it just using tokens. If you spend a token, you get a 1 pip effect. If you tell a story of why a god is helping you in this situation and which of their aspects comes  into play, you get 2 pips. Have a bag of about 50 tokens and use an additional 12 different colored tokens to represent Divine Favor. When someone draws that token treat it as a 3 pip token. Track Celestial Favor as a stat and when someone pulls a Divine Favor have them roll 1d6 plus 1d6 for each 3 full points of Celestial Favor: if any of these come up as 6s, they actually have a 4-pip Celestial Favor instead of a 3 pip. That should get about the same involvement (but you lose out on the card aspect of Enaros growing tired of watching one character and changing their focus).

 

You can also just play it straight old school, with no fate mechanic. It's your game

[Duke Bushido]

Thank you. 

[Tywyll]

15 hours ago, Legendsmiths said:

 

Attunement Points

Points allocated to one item can be used to attune to a different item later, but once points are committed to item Attunement they cannot be used for any
other purpose. (p. 359)

 

Of course, it's your game. We just found during our campaigns that this made sense and made players think about whether they wanted to attune to an item in the first place.

 

Sorry, I guess I'm still not being clear. I'm not talking about getting the points you spend on Attunement back, I get that becomes a permanent 'pool' of points. 

 

What I mean is the CP you spend to buy a signature item (which you do not have to attune). If the signature item is lost, do you lose the CP? At least it is my understanding that signature items are paid for with CP directly.

 

15 hours ago, Legendsmiths said:

Granting Skills

p. 266. You assume a characteristic of 0, so 3 points gets you a 9- roll. Build it up from there. When building items, it's an Item Enhancement, so getting Riding 12- for a magical saddle is 3 points for base skill of 9-, 6 points for +3 = 12- at a total of 9 character points. On the Item Enhancement table that's 5 energy.

 

 

 

Cool, thank you for that!

 

Along with the Card question...

 

Are players just supposed to use the text on the cards to encourage them to tell a story?

 

Also, do villains ever benefit from the card mechanic?

 

(I'll admit I've only briefly skimmed it)

[Legendsmiths]

You can unattune to Signature Items and then those points go back into your attunement pool. p363

 

the cp cost for sig items is just to differentiate them from regular magic items. 
 

The text on the cards is meant to inspire how to use a particular aspect of that god. You should not use the text directly in your narrative of why the Enaros wants to help you. 
 

The villains do not benefit directly. I have played sessions where the GM gets cards (1 per player works) for the adventure. It changes the dynamic—it does reinforce the Enaros as not always being on the players’ side, but it can create conflict between players and GM as well as diminish the value of their cards. It certainly works and I considered including that guidance in the game but the approach and mechanic was already a lot for many players that hadn’t played with a fate mechanic, let alone one where they had to role play a god to justify the fate intrusion. 

[Tywyll]

On 1/24/2020 at 2:43 PM, Legendsmiths said:

You can unattune to Signature Items and then those points go back into your attunement pool. p363

 

the cp cost for sig items is just to differentiate them from regular magic items. 

 

Yes, but if the item is lost/destroyed do you get your CP back or are they lost as well? Is this the old Independent limitation, or do the players get their points back? You haven't spent any points on Attunement because Signature items don't require attunement, but they do require CP (with a /5 modifier). Do you get those CP back?

 

Quote

The text on the cards is meant to inspire how to use a particular aspect of that god. You should not use the text directly in your narrative of why the Enaros wants to help you. 
 

The villains do not benefit directly. I have played sessions where the GM gets cards (1 per player works) for the adventure. It changes the dynamic—it does reinforce the Enaros as not always being on the players’ side, but it can create conflict between players and GM as well as diminish the value of their cards. It certainly works and I considered including that guidance in the game but the approach and mechanic was already a lot for many players that hadn’t played with a fate mechanic, let alone one where they had to role play a god to justify the fate intrusion. 

 

How long does it take up usually? I mean, HERO combat is pretty slow as is...it seems like playing cards and telling unrelated stories would slow down play dramatically?

[Legendsmiths]

Signature items are not independent. You get the points back into your attunement pool, even if the item is lost or destroyed. 
 

as for the time it takes to play cards, well that varies. Usually it’s a failed roll followed by a pause as the player looks at their cards, thinks, and then shares a sentence or two to justify the card play. 1-2 minutes. But that’s also not just during combat. Ideally it’s not some extraneous anecdote as well. Playing a card should be tied to the current storyline/adventure. 

 

I’ve run a lot of Narosia, including for people who’ve never played Hero before. The Ruins of Baradahm adventure in the book is a good example. There are 3 fights in there (possibly 4, but I always skip that one in convention play) and I can intro the world, the characters, the cards, and complete that adventure in 4 hours. I’ve run that adventure in DCC, Fate, and 3.5 D&D and it still takes 4 hours. 

 

While Hero combat is detailed I don’t consider it slow. Enhancing the combat with divine intrusion is fun and makes better stories. If your Hero combats are taking long, make sure they are interesting. Players don’t care as much if the combat is exciting and filled with fun choices. 
 

Card play is a storytelling mechanic that does enhance the story. If you eliminated the storytelling element and just made it a mechanical choice, it loses its purpose. Fate mechanics that have no usage requirements become just another mechanic in the game for players to tweak or min/max. By giving the fate points a narrative requirement players won’t always be able to spend a fate point. 
 

If you wanted to play without the narrative, I would suggest that you just ply with tokens and allow people to spend more than one if they want (still using the Divine Effects Table). 

[Tywyll]

20 hours ago, Legendsmiths said:

Signature items are not independent. You get the points back into your attunement pool, even if the item is lost or destroyed.

 

Rereading the section on Signature Items I think I see why we seem to be talking at cross purposes. In the creation of signature items it meantions spending CP for the items several times, including the fact that Sig Items get a cost divisor. It also says that they don't count against the magic items you are normally allowed to possess. 

 

This is (or at least seems) totally different from the Attunement Perk/mechanic. I interpret that Signature items are purchased seperately, as you might in a Superheroic game, only with a cost divisor. These CP have NOTHING to do with Attunement points/rules which are a seperate issue. The items do, apparently, also have to be attuned, but that is a seperate cost paid in addition to the CP spent on owning a unique magic item. 

 

If the cost in CPs that Signature items require you to pay is actually it's ATTUNEMENT cost, why is it figured differently from normal attunement (normal real cost/5 instead of the attunement rules)?

 

20 hours ago, Legendsmiths said:

as for the time it takes to play cards, well that varies. Usually it’s a failed roll followed by a pause as the player looks at their cards, thinks, and then shares a sentence or two to justify the card play. 1-2 minutes. But that’s also not just during combat. Ideally it’s not some extraneous anecdote as well. Playing a card should be tied to the current storyline/adventure. 

 

 

I'd be interested in trying the cards, though being in the UK there is no easy and affordable way to get them. I could print them off myself and I suppose put them in card sleeves but that's not particularly attractive (plus we don't really have kinkos here in Edinburgh and have to go to proper print shops for work like that, so it's a hassle). I'll see if my players are interested and if so I might try the home printer/card sleeve option.

 

Of course the other issue is that we aren't actually playing in the Narosia setting, so I'd need to modify the god cards to reflect the divinities of my setting. Probably not too big of a hassle, but another step you know?

[Legendsmiths]

5 hours ago, Tywyll said:

This is (or at least seems) totally different from the Attunement Perk/mechanic. I interpret that Signature items are purchased seperately, as you might in a Superheroic game, only with a cost divisor. These CP have NOTHING to do with Attunement points/rules which are a seperate issue. The items do, apparently, also have to be attuned, but that is a seperate cost paid in addition to the CP spent on owning a unique magic item. 

 

If the cost in CPs that Signature items require you to pay is actually it's ATTUNEMENT cost, why is it figured differently from normal attunement (normal real cost/5 instead of the attunement rules)?

 

It's more an issue that I didn't explain it very well. The CPs spent on signture items are a special form of attunement points. Once you invest CPs in signature items you never get them back, but if you unattune or lose the item those CPs become just part of your attunement pool. You can also use points you have used to attune to other items to unattune to them and create/attune to a signature item.

 

The net net of this is: a) I don't like the Independent modifier; b) normal magic items are a part of fantasy, but paying full cost is unbalancing in heroic level Hero.

 

Signature Items are something that comes out during play. So, if I have a 150 point character and have an opportunity to create signature item (like a dragon slaying sword), if I paid standard Hero costs for an 8 DC sword with +3 DC vs dragons (a very basic effect) with maybe Damage Reduction vs. Fire (50% rED) the cost of that would be (with only OAF basically): 20 for 8DC, 5 vs dragons (-1), 12 for DR (-1/2 for only vs fire) = 37character points. How is a normal adventuring hero supposed to come up with that many points? If we did Independent, the costs end up being: 10, 3, 7 = still 20 points and we now have the baggage of Independent. My reasoning was, you can only create a Siganture Item if you have an Enaros or Celestial Favor card (rare) + you have to have an item that you can use in a scene and play the card on it. That's a pretty big prereq, and rather than muddle the calculations up with some other limitation, I basically treat all magic items (conceptually) as a flexible multipower with a reserve that the universe pays for. You just buy the slots. So now when I build that sword (with the -1/4 unified power lim) I get 18, 5, 11 = 34 / 5 = 7 points. That's 2-3 sessions of XP and that is far more manageable, but it's still expensive. That's 7 spells or +1 OCV or whatever. It's signficant yet manageable, and something like a signature item should be.

 

I hope that logic helps. It's the culmination how I solved my frustrations of fantasy RPG tropes in Hero at the heroic level (the other answer is just play fantasy Champions).

 

5 hours ago, Tywyll said:

I'd be interested in trying the cards, though being in the UK there is no easy and affordable way to get them. I could print them off myself and I suppose put them in card sleeves but that's not particularly attractive (plus we don't really have kinkos here in Edinburgh and have to go to proper print shops for work like that, so it's a hassle). I'll see if my players are interested and if so I might try the home printer/card sleeve option.

 

Of course the other issue is that we aren't actually playing in the Narosia setting, so I'd need to modify the god cards to reflect the divinities of my setting. Probably not too big of a hassle, but another step you know?

 

For printing the cards, just print them at home. No need to put them on fancy paper or print the backs. The PDFs are formatted to print out (and should print on A4 okay (maybe). Otherwise, yes if you are using a different set of gods then I'd suggest the token system I came up with and to justify a signature item you have to have a blue token (or whatever signifies the rare tokens) and then explain how the magic of the world interacts with your action to create this new signature item (e.g., the sword, now drenched in the dragons blood fuses with the blade itself as my fury uses the essence around me to forge a new legacy).

[Tywyll]

On 1/28/2020 at 4:53 PM, Legendsmiths said:

 

It's more an issue that I didn't explain it very well. The CPs spent on signture items are a special form of attunement points. Once you invest CPs in signature items you never get them back, but if you unattune or lose the item those CPs become just part of your attunement pool. You can also use points you have used to attune to other items to unattune to them and create/attune to a signature item.<snip>

 

Thank you for that clarification!

 

Okay, I'm totally on board with you now. I also agree I'm not a fan of Independent or similar limitations. Cost divisors are a much better option, though I'm not a huge fan of even charging cp for magic items, but the attunement rules aren't too bad (and since my current campaign is converted from a system where characters couldn't use more than 5 magic items at once, it kind of fits). 

[Tywyll]

On 1/23/2020 at 8:17 PM, Legendsmiths said:

 

1 per 3.

 

As for other powers, of course it's buried in a sidebar

"HERODESIGNER Building a Spell or Orison in HERODesigner requires a Cost Multiplier of 0.2 to calculate the ESS or MAG correctly. The only exception is the Power Dispel; it has a Cost Multiplier of 0.33 since Narosia uses the BODY value on the dice instead of the total value." So, that 30 real cost would result in an "energy" of 6. With an energy of 6, the cost of attunement would then be 2. The reason the energy cost is needed is if you were to try and dispel that object, then you would need to generate 6 BODY when you rolled your Dispel dice.

 

 

 

Hey @Legendsmiths

 

I have had some more items show up and I'm wondering how to 'price' them for Attunement.

 

So I get that, roughly speaking, you should multiply Real Cost by x.07 did get its attunement cost (according to above). However, with weapons and armor this doesn't quite work since DC and OCV increases are already spell out. How do you figure out the cost for things like:

1) Weapons/Armor that have advantages (armor piercing, Penetrating, Hardened, etc)?

2) Weapons/Armor that are impervious to mundane problems (i.e. that lose the Real Weapon/Armor limitation or some other limitation used to build the weapon)?

3)  Charged items...do they require attunement if they have a limited number of charges (like a wand that has 10 nonrecovering charges since its basically the same as ten scrolls)?

 

[Legendsmiths]

1. p361. I don't recommend penetrating, but it would follow the same lines.

2. +1 Energy

3. Scrolls are consumable and do not require attunement. Rods, Staffs, and Wands do require attunement as they recharge.

 

[Tywyll]

43 minutes ago, Legendsmiths said:

1. p361. I don't recommend penetrating, but it would follow the same lines.

2. +1 Energy

3. Scrolls are consumable and do not require attunement. Rods, Staffs, and Wands do require attunement as they recharge.

 

Okay Thanks! I totally forgot that bit on p361. Really, you think Penetrating is worse then AP? Interesting. 

 

Where are the recharging rules? 

 

[Legendsmiths]

Nothing special to recharging. Charges recover at dawn, with the rising of Lensae.

 

Penetrating when added to a weapon, isn't too bad. Penetrating can be used to create effects that are possibly overpowered at the heroic level (e.g. 1 pip, continuous, penetrating damage). Other than that, no issue with it.

[Tywyll]

14 hours ago, Legendsmiths said:

Nothing special to recharging. Charges recover at dawn, with the rising of Lensae.

 

Penetrating when added to a weapon, isn't too bad. Penetrating can be used to create effects that are possibly overpowered at the heroic level (e.g. 1 pip, continuous, penetrating damage). Other than that, no issue with it.

 

Ah, got ya. Cheeky builds, yeah, those can be a problem for any setting.