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Autofire rolling multiple times


Tryskhell

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9 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Absolutely right.  But if you have the skill levels to hit on a 24 or less and roll a 3....

I was going to say that if you've got a 10 OCV, and your target has a 0 DCV, then you need a 21- to hit, so on a 3, you could hit with all 10 shots.  But what kind of sadistic bastard are you, shooting a machine gun at a guy with 0 DCV?

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Okay, 4e.  This time from the very first HERO System Rules book.  This time we find it, for the first time ever, listed with the other power advantages:

 

Automatic weapons and Powers bought with the Power Advantage Autofire can fire a stream of attacks with a single attack roll. Thus, they can hit one target several times, or several targets with one attack. A character making an Autofire attack chooses how many "shots" he would like to use, up to his maximum (see the Power Advantage Autofire). The attacker then makes a normal AttackRoll. For every 2 points the Attack Roll is made by, the attacker hits the target one time. A single target can never be hit more times than "shots" were used.

 

 

Okay.  Longest definition thus far.  Let's see how to use it:

 

T o use a Power with Autofire, the character chooses how many times he would like to fire the Power, up to a maximum of 5 shots. He makes a normal Attack Roll. If successful, the character hits the target; in addition, for every 2 points the Attack Roll was made by, the character hits the target an additional time. If a character needed a 13- to hit his target, and rolled a 9, he would hit his target 3 times, once for 13, once for 11 , and once for 9.

 

 

 

The price has gone up, and Autofire has been re-defined to be five shots, with the ability to double that ad infinitum by increasing the value of the Limitation (every +1/2 doubles the max number of shots.

 

 

There has been a creep-in of even more special rules, mostly in how to add Reduced END to your auto fire.  I suppose that's to be expected, since both END cost _Reduced END has been changed for this edition, so we can possibly chalk that bit up to "making it work properly with the new changes."  Possibly.

 

 

Something else is different here.  Let's check the combat section:

 

A character may spray a Autofire attack at several targets. When doing this, there is a -1 OCV penalty for each hex fired into. Each target can only get hit once. The attacker declares the targets and counts the number of continuous target hexes. He must fire a minimum of one shot into each hex, even if there is no target there (so a character with a 5 shot maximum could affect a maximum of 5 hexes).

 

 

Still not seeing it.  But wait!

 

There's a chart on p148!  And it says something that might explain why I'm not seeing it.  The chart states that Autofire, being used with more than one shot, has an OCV bonus of +0 and a DCV bonus of +0.

 

 

So we have to wait until 4e-- the edition that "tied everything from the previous material together"--- to see a change in Autofire.  Yes, we saw some changed verbiage in nearly every edition, but all of those seemed to be clarification more than change.  The changes here -- notice that's plural-- are quite significant.  Right off the bat, auto fire is more expensive than ever before.  Also, there is no longer a need to buy "selective:" the new rules say you decide before hand just how many shots you want to fire.  Pretty need trick if you're using a UZI and state "I'd like to five exactly seven shots."  That would take some serious practice.  :lol:  

 

It's _possible_ that the new cost reflects that fact that "selective" is now just part of the deal, but that only works with one level of Autofire.  You shouldn't have to pay for selective more than once, but if it's built into the cost of the advantage, you're paying for it _again_ every time.  So it's more likely that the cost has just _change_, period, and that selective is just part of the definition of auto fire now.

 

 

But where is my +2 OCV for a 5-shot burst (the new default) against a single target?  Where is my +4 for a 10 shot burst?

 

They are just _gone_!  Sure, it's likely that this was decided on because of the new "you can double it many, many times" options would add an additional +2 OCV with every doubling (and really, why shouldn't it? ;)  ), but we'd just be guessing at this point.  I mean, it makes sense, but it could get really, really obnoxious in the wrong hands (like the people that put Zero END, Autofire (automatic reset) and Trigger on Damage Shields.  )

 

 

Yeah, we can find ways to justify all of the new changes as coping with the other bits that were changed, but that doesn't alter the fact that 4e was where Autofire first changed toward what we know of it today.

 

There is now an auto fire specific maneuver / skill : suppression fire.  Sure, at the time we thought "well this is a totally  good and understandable thing and we're happy for it.   If we'd realized the slippery slope we'd just greased with that-- i.e., what cheesiness 5e would do with auto fire "skills," we might not have appreciated it so much.  Or maybe we would.  Maybe it makes sense to you that you can fire at such an insane rate of speed and _not_ waste a single shot into an empty hex.  Go, you.

 

 

4e brings autfire-specific weapon failures with "runaway fire."  That's new.  I can't remember if it stayed in later editions; someone more willing to plod back through them will have to confirm or deny that.

 

Now when you get to the chart on 200, it seems to suggest that "certain" auto fire weapons still get a CV bonus, but whether it's OCV or DCV seems to have been decided with a coin toss.

 

 

I'm not doing Champions 4e because I'm going to bed now.  You folks enjoy yourselves.

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And somewhere (4th ed?  And probably also in 5th ed.  And I would assume it's been included in 6th as well somewhere), there were "Autofire Skills" that could be purchased, such as "Concentrated Sprayfire" that let you hit multiple targets more than once each (up to the total number of shots fired, of course), so if three targets are in a close group, you can try to hit one of them three times, and the other two once each; or two of them twice each, and the other one once.  And there was also "Skipover Sprayfire" which allowed you to shoot at multiple targets that were spread out, without having to waste shots on empty hexes - though your to-hit penalty was still based on the total number of hexes you had to track across.  And there might have been another one called "Accurate Sprayfire" which reduced the OCV penalty to a flat -2 IIRC, regardless of how many hexes you tracked across.  And there may have been other Autfire Skills, as well.  IDHMBIFOM, and I don't remember what they cost.  I'm going to go see if I can find those rules.

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16 minutes ago, PhilFleischmann said:

And somewhere (4th ed?  And probably also in 5th ed.  And I would assume it's been included in 6th as well somewhere), there were "Autofire Skills" that could be purchased, such as "Concentrated Sprayfire" that let you hit multiple targets more than once each (up to the total number of shots fired, of course), so if three targets are in a close group, you can try to hit one of them three times, and the other two once each; or two of them twice each, and the other one once.  And there was also "Skipover Sprayfire" which allowed you to shoot at multiple targets that were spread out, without having to waste shots on empty hexes - though your to-hit penalty was still based on the total number of hexes you had to track across.  And there might have been another one called "Accurate Sprayfire" which reduced the OCV penalty to a flat -2 IIRC, regardless of how many hexes you tracked across.  And there may have been other Autfire Skills, as well.  IDHMBIFOM, and I don't remember what they cost.  I'm going to go see if I can find those rules.

 

 

Yep.  5e.

 

I mentioned them:

37 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

There is now an auto fire specific maneuver / skill : suppression fire.  Sure, at the time we thought "well this is a totally  good and understandable thing and we're happy for it.   If we'd realized the slippery slope we'd just greased with that-- i.e., what cheesiness 5e would do with auto fire "skills," we might not have appreciated it so much.  Or maybe we would.  Maybe it makes sense to you that you can fire at such an insane rate of speed and _not_ waste a single shot into an empty hex.  Go, you.

 

 

 

:lol:

 

 

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14 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

There is now an auto fire specific maneuver / skill : suppression fire.  Sure, at the time we thought "well this is a totally  good and understandable thing and we're happy for it.   If we'd realized the slippery slope we'd just greased with that-- i.e., what cheesiness 5e would do with auto fire "skills," we might not have appreciated it so much.  Or maybe we would.  Maybe it makes sense to you that you can fire at such an insane rate of speed and _not_ waste a single shot into an empty hex.  Go, you.

Are you talking about realism?  The system isn't based on realism.  It's based on a balanced cost for utility.  Skipover Sprayfire makes at least as much sense as Teleportation or Telekinesis or Clairsentience.

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I do find autofire without a bonus to hit to be completely counter-intuitive.

 

If I point a machine gun at you and hold the trigger down I expect my chance to hit you at least once to be higher than if I fired a single bullet.

 

More of a tangent, but my Danger International group didn't like the way autofire and hit location interacted.  I hit him in the foot, the head, the ankle, the shoulder!

 

So we came up with a house rule for hit locations in an autofire situation.  Roll 3 dice and arrange them horizontally in the order they landed.  If you hit a second time remove the die on the left and roll a single die adding it to the right side.  Repeat as necessary.

 

This resulted in shots tending to cluster which at least *felt* more realistic.

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1 hour ago, ScottishFox said:

I do find autofire without a bonus to hit to be completely counter-intuitive.

 

If I point a machine gun at you and hold the trigger down I expect my chance to hit you at least once to be higher than if I fired a single bullet.

 

Unlike, say, being Immune to Heat and Cold providing no defense against heat and cold attacks?  If you think your Autofire attack should be more likely to hit, buy some OCV bonuses for it.  Maybe buy +5 OCV to Autofire, declines by +1 for each shot (and you now hit once for every three instead of every two your roll succeeds by).

1 hour ago, ScottishFox said:

More of a tangent, but my Danger International group didn't like the way autofire and hit location interacted.  I hit him in the foot, the head, the ankle, the shoulder!

 

So we came up with a house rule for hit locations in an autofire situation.  Roll 3 dice and arrange them horizontally in the order they landed.  If you hit a second time remove the die on the left and roll a single die adding it to the right side.  Repeat as necessary.

 

This resulted in shots tending to cluster which at least *felt* more realistic.

 

Sounds like the bullets sprayed down from his foot up to his head.  You need to hold that weapon more firmly so the kickback doesn't cause that lift as you fire!

 

Your approach works.  Another would be to roll for a smaller region after each hit.  Maybe hitting the foot means you roll a Low Shot location for the next hit instead of a standard roll.  That makes a wide spray less likely, but still possible.

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4 hours ago, ScottishFox said:

I do find autofire without a bonus to hit to be completely counter-intuitive.

 

If I point a machine gun at you and hold the trigger down I expect my chance to hit you at least once to be higher than if I fired a single bullet.

 

More of a tangent, but my Danger International group didn't like the way autofire and hit location interacted.  I hit him in the foot, the head, the ankle, the shoulder! 

 

 

I am not and have never been in the military; I couldnt afford the ammo when these were lquasi-egal, and can't afford the fines and jail time now that they aren't, but for a brief period, years ago, I owned a full-auto AK, and if my small handful of experiences with that are anything to go by, that's a hell of a lot more realistic than you might think for just holding it down and spraying.  :lol:

 

 

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Did anyone mention the Autofire Skills that do what everyone is talking about or did I miss that?

 

Not sure if they're "Standard" Hero now or if they were moved to the APGs with the advent of 6th . . . 

 

Anyway, from what I recall they do everything people are talking about.  Make it easier to hit, more damage, allow more rounds to hit etc . . 

 

Of course, you have to pay for the abilities, which i think you should.  Of course, as the GM, they could be considered "Free" and just optional autofire maneuvers. But I, personally, wouldn't go that route.

 

Edit:  Core Autofire Skills - 6th Ed V1 pg 65

          Advanced Player's Guide v1 - pg 35

          6th Ed version of Ultimate Skill - pg 85 (probably just a reprint of what was in 6th ed v1 but not sure)

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16 hours ago, Vanguard said:

Did anyone mention the Autofire Skills that do what everyone is talking about or did I miss that?

Yes.  You're the third person to mention them, I think.

 

Some complain that they are unrealistic, but that really doesn't matter.  There are lots of unrealistic things in HERO, like Teleportation and Telekinesis.  If you can imagine it, you should be able to build it in HERO.  It doesn't matter how realistic it is, what matters is how useful it is, and that it should have a cost commensurate with its utility.

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On 2/5/2020 at 1:12 PM, ScottishFox said:

I do find autofire without a bonus to hit to be completely counter-intuitive.

 

If I point a machine gun at you and hold the trigger down I expect my chance to hit you at least once to be higher than if I fired a single bullet.

 

There are two, contradictory things happening:

  1. The more rounds you put down range, the more likely you are to hit the target.
  2. A gun firing fully automatic is difficult to control, making it harder to keep it aimed at the target.

Autofire is trying to model both those things at once.

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On 2/5/2020 at 6:12 PM, ScottishFox said:

If I point a machine gun at you and hold the trigger down I expect my chance to hit you at least once to be higher than if I fired a single bullet.

And that is the balance between reality and game value.

 

With autofire, as is, you get the same chance to hit with at least one shot and chances to hit with multiple shots, no additional bureaucracy unless you do qualify for multiple hits. To me that is a game design decision rather than a modelling one.

 

It would be a trivial amount of points to buy levels with autofire on a single target.

 

You could decide to use the old rule, give up all your chances to get multiple hits by going full autofire simply for a better chance of one hit.  As GM, I never found providing +4 for loosing ten bullets (charges) unbalancing and would be fine if a player asked me for that.  +2 for five (maybe) anything for fewer shots (not at all).

 

Doc

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3 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

You could decide to use the old rule, give up all your chances to get multiple hits by going full autofire simply for a better chance of one hit.  As GM, I never found providing +4 for loosing ten bullets (charges) unbalancing and would be fine if a player asked me for that.  +2 for five (maybe) anything for fewer shots (not at all).

And if you like, you can even increase the granularity a little.  Say +1 for three shots, +3 for eight shots.

 

I love granularity!

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On February 8, 2020 at 10:30 AM, Doc Democracy said:

 

You could decide to use the old rule, give up all your chances to get multiple hits by going full autofire simply for a better chance of one hit.  As GM, I never found providing +4 for loosing ten bullets (charges) unbalancing and would be fine if a player asked me for that.  +2 for five (maybe) anything for fewer shots (not at all).

 

Doc

 

 

I'm forty-two feet in the air right now, so I can't really get to my books, but I'm not certain that--by the old rules-- you traded nine (or four) shots for a +4 (or +2).  As I recall, you got a +4 in exchange for _using_ all ten (or +2 for five), but you still got the. "extra" hits for each 2 you rolled below your target number (or above it, for you roll-high heathens. ;) .)  

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On 2/8/2020 at 8:42 PM, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

I'm forty-two feet in the air right now, so I can't really get to my books, but I'm not certain that--by the old rules-- you traded nine (or four) shots for a +4 (or +2).  As I recall, you got a +4 in exchange for _using_ all ten (or +2 for five), but you still got the. "extra" hits for each 2 you rolled below your target number (or above it, for you roll-high heathens. ;) .)  

 

Obviously I HAD to go and look.  Duke is, of course, right about this.  The big interesting thing that I dont remember using is the complexity of reduced END with Autofire.

 

If you have a 50 AP power (5 END) firing 10 shots, you spend 50 END for a burst.  In those days you reduced END by half until you got 1 END and the next level made it 0 END.

 

that 5 END power would need three levels of Reduced END to get to 0.  5 to 2 to 1 to 0. 

 

If you autofired that attack it would not be 0 END, it would be 50 to 25 to 12 to 6 END. 

 

So a power that was 0 END for a single shot would cost you 6 END for autofire, unless you bought an extra 3 levels of Reduced END.  I kind of like that....

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Absolutely right, which is why charges and such were so popular on it in the old editions.  4e streamlined END a bit: that was the first appearance of the modern "Reduced ENDx2" means zero END.   Made autofire a bit more popular, except that you still had to keep in mind the AP of your maximum attack (since you could, be default, declare it was up to ten shots).   

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