Building a Power to find someone at a distance

[Tywyll]

I'm converting a character from another system who has a power that allows them to remotely locate a target up to 15 miles away by seeing through the mirror closest to the target. This doesn't guarantee you'll see the target or get some useful information from the mirror, but you might (and if you keep looking long enough they might get in front of the mirror).

 

So clairsentience is out because you have to know where you are wanting to look. Is it Detect?  

 

I'm trying it like this: 

Mirror Search:  Detect Sought after target 15- (Sight Group), Increased Arc Of Perception (360 Degrees), Telescopic:  +11 (20 Active Points); Limited Power Only see the target through the nearest mirror (-1). 

 

Is that how I should build this power? Does it need to be 'penetrative'? 

[BoloOfEarth]

I think Penetrative would be needed.

 

Does the power give the character knowledge of the actual location of the targeted person?  For example, if the target is locked in a cell in a VIPER Nest (with a mirror in the cell), does the character using the power know where the Nest is if he succeeds in his PER roll?  Or does he just see the guy sitting forlorn in a cell, and not know where it is?  And if there wasn't a mirror in the cell, would the character get a view from the closest mirror (e.g. the mirror in the bathroom down the hall from the cell block)?

 

 

[PhilFleischmann]

My first thought is some sort of Mind Scan combined with Clairsentience.

 

But then another thought occurred to me, and I don't know how much this should cost:  Something like Fixed Locations for Teleporting, you could have Fixed Locations for Clairsentience.  And they could be either regular Fixed Locations, like your best buddy, or Floating Fixed Locations, that you have to spend some time "studying" to change.  Seems like a rather obvious adder for Clairsentience that should have been available already, now that I think of it.

[Chris Goodwin]

27 minutes ago, PhilFleischmann said:

But then another thought occurred to me, and I don't know how much this should cost:  Something like Fixed Locations for Teleporting, you could have Fixed Locations for Clairsentience.  And they could be either regular Fixed Locations, like your best buddy, or Floating Fixed Locations, that you have to spend some time "studying" to change.  Seems like a rather obvious adder for Clairsentience that should have been available already, now that I think of it.

 

This is a thing I've thought about doing.  Generalized Fixed and Floating Locations to Fixed and Floating... things?  I was never sure what to call them.  Slots?  

 

5 points for Cramming is effectively a "Floating Skill Familiarity Slot:".  Which makes 1 point a Fixed Skill Familiarity Slot, which gives you a Skill Roll at 8-.  Coincidence?  

 

Some other uses could be dimensions for Extradimensional Movement, or slots for a Variable Power Pool in a game in which VPP has to take "only from known list" or somesuch.  Shapeshift shapes.  Configurations of Variable Advantage and/or Limitation.

 

Anything else that this could be generalized to?

[Duke Bushido]

I'm pretty much in line with Phi:

 

I am thinking Mind Scan with limitations like "target must be within eyeshot of a mirrror;" caster must be looking into a mirror. "

 

Call it done. 

 

Want more details?  You can use mind scan to target someone with a mental power (one you have their location).  So you can use that to nail the mirror you are seeing them through as a location to pin your clairsentience.  Add" only through mirrors" to keep with your shtick and you're done. 

 

There's no reason, I don't believe, to really over think this, since there are out-of-the-book constructs for doing precisely what you want.  

[PhilFleischmann]

4 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

This is a thing I've thought about doing.  Generalized Fixed and Floating Locations to Fixed and Floating... things?  I was never sure what to call them.  Slots?  

 

5 points for Cramming is effectively a "Floating Skill Familiarity Slot:".  Which makes 1 point a Fixed Skill Familiarity Slot, which gives you a Skill Roll at 8-.  Coincidence?  

 

Some other uses could be dimensions for Extradimensional Movement, or slots for a Variable Power Pool in a game in which VPP has to take "only from known list" or somesuch.  Shapeshift shapes.  Configurations of Variable Advantage and/or Limitation.

 

Anything else that this could be generalized to?

It could definitely apply to EDM,   Maybe even Swinging - if there's a swing rope permanently fixed somewhere that you know about.  Or even to implement parkour-type moves - when you know in advance where there are things you can jump/climb over/bounce off of/etc.  And thus it might apply to Climbing as well, somehow. 

 

I'm not sure Shapeshift would apply here, since that's not the way you buy Shapeshift - you just go ahead and buy the shape or category of shapes you want to shift into.

 

Mind Link also sorta-kinda works this way.

 

4 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

I am thinking Mind Scan with limitations like "target must be within eyeshot of a mirrror;" caster must be looking into a mirror. "

Based on the way the OP described the power, I think it would be Mind Scan with the limitation "Locks on to the nearest mirror, rather than the target's mind" combined with "Cannot use Mental Powers on the target".  And then a Linked Clairsentience from the point of view of that mirror.  (Depending on the specific details of how the power is supposed to work.)

[Duke Bushido]

17 minutes ago, PhilFleischmann said:

Based on the way the OP described the power, I think it would be Mind Scan with the limitation "Locks on to the nearest mirror, rather than the target's mind" combined with "Cannot use Mental Powers on the target".  And then a Linked Clairsentience from the point of view of that mirror.  (Depending on the specific details of how the power is supposed to work.)

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think you're reading more into it than he actually said.  He didn't really say that he can't use mental powers through it.  Perhaps that is something he had in mind, but he didn't actually say it.

 

As far as the rest of it--

 

I'm quite possibly biased: I did this identical thing umpteen years ago as a spell in a Fantasy HERO game ("Looking Glass"), which I did very much limit to the caster and the target both having their reflection in a mirror when the spell was cast.  I gave it a -2  (Seriously: it was a primarily outdoors, travel, type game: that, and the scarcity of mirrors in the setting itself, made it worth a -2).  At some point, the party settled in a large city and began an adventurer's guild.  At that point, it was a -1 (mirrors were _somewhat_ more common, but still not something you just ran across).  In a modern setting, what with three on every car, I don't know if I'd even call it a Limitation more than just a Special Effect.

 

I did a similar spell (Pool of Searching) with a slightly different cant: any bit of water in which the caster's reflection can be seen; any surface in which the target's reflection can be seen.   However, I did not put a limitation on that one: there was always _something_ that a reflection or shadow or some signature of the target could be seen.  I still gave it a small limitation because the caster may have to pour water into a vessel and wait for it to settle, etc.  But I digress....

 

"Works with mirrors" doesn't have to be a limitation.  One version I did as a spell, I did not take it as a Limitation.  Limitations are never mandatory, but they can be fun both for flavor and as a challenge to work around.  With the Limitation "only through mirrors," then no mirror, no effect.  _Without_ the Limitation, the power works exactly the same way, save that there will be a convenient reflecting surface that fits the bill _somewhere_.  The "mirror" becomes a special effect rather than a Limitation.  I offer this only because the OP doesn't really state if he wants the ability to be limited, or to "just work that way."  Not Limiting it is perfectly acceptable.

 

As far as "locking onto the nearest mirror," well that's not inherently a Limitation, either.  If we look at the effects table of Mind Scan, we see results that read thusly:

 

General position of Target is known.

Target's exact position is known.

Her can use any other Mental Powers on the target with the usual attack roll

 

That sort of thing.  The special effect of looking at him from a mirror down the hall doesn't really effect any of those, simply because you can know his general location (I saw him walk by!), his exact position (He is just standing there, picking something out of his teeth!), and of course, you can "see" him by the SFX, and Line of Sight works for any mental power.  No; more specifically, "able to attack with the usual attack roll" doesn't counteract "Line of Sight," and "Line of Sight" not only doesn't counteract "Target's position is known--" Quite the opposite:  "I can see him" rather implies that the target's position is known (at least, known by you, relative to you).  There is absolutely no way I could object to someone deciding to whip out the ol' Scroll of Brain Busting or some other Mental Power.  

 

The mirror, at it's basest definition, is just SFX.  If the OP wants to make it a hindrance, then by all means, make it one, and give it a game-appropriate Limitation.

 

The Clairsentience doesn't have to be linked, either.  It's a mental power (or at least, it can be defined as one) and therefore targetable by knowing the target's location (which you have done via the mirror).  It _can_ be linked, certainly, so that it all goes off at once.  If it's not, you get some pretty cool sfx, though:  you are looking into a mirror, and you see the target.  He is _all_ you see; everything else is black!  He is moving, but he seems to be walking in place, head turned as if speaking to someone-- or is he merely admiring the foliage? You can't tell.....   Then you fire off the Clairsentience, and you can see the entire view from the mirror, as it were.  Either way is fine, really.  I'm simply stating that there is a lot being read into the OPs post that he doesn't actually say, and a lot of over-thinking to get the results that he does specify.

 

These are the sort of conversations that make me understand why new people say that it's too complicated, or that they can't figure out how to get what they want.  No one is wrong-- I want to stress that-- but there's a lot being thrown out that the request doesn't really justify.

 

 

[dmjalund]

how do you determine how many people are looking in a mirror in a particular area at any given time?

[Doc Democracy]

1 hour ago, dmjalund said:

how do you determine how many people are looking in a mirror in a particular area at any given time?

 

Well, you make a decision like Duke talked about above on how common mirrors are (including mirrored surfaces).  The GM is being invited to make a call here.  You might decide that a -1 limitation on your power means maybe an 11 or less chance someone you are interested in is looking at a mirror at that moment.  Each 1 you fail by steps up the time you would have to wait for a definitive answer.

 

Those numbers are off the top of my head but they provide a mechanic for a GM.  Works best with a secret roll, the user of the power gets a no response but would not know how long the wait might be.  At -1 it is likely, under normal circumstances, that someone will look in a mirrored surface pretty often.

 

Doc

[massey]

Detect Target, Ranged, N-Ray, 360 Degrees, Discriminatory, Targeting, Megascale (or just a bunch of range bonuses)

--only provides info that can be seen out of nearest mirror (-1)

 

Easy as can be.  Don't overthink it.  Isn't this a power from Palladium's Nightbane?  Anyway, the reason the limitation is worth a -1 is because the power is used to track somebody down at a far distance.  Without the limitation, you could just pinpoint exactly where the guy was.  You'd know direction, distance, what he was wearing, etc.  "He's 5 miles away, on the corner of 74th and Pennsylvania."  But with the limitation, you know only what can be seen through the mirror.  If he's in a bathroom popping a zit, then you can see him, but you don't know where he is or which bathroom.  You have to keep using the power and wait for him to pass in front of something identifiable. 

[PhilFleischmann]

10 hours ago, dmjalund said:

how do you determine how many people are looking in a mirror in a particular area at any given time?

You buy the Clairsentience "Only from the point of view of a mirror", and then you count the number of people you see.

 

4 hours ago, massey said:

Detect Target, Ranged, N-Ray, 360 Degrees, Discriminatory, Targeting, Megascale (or just a bunch of range bonuses)

--only provides info that can be seen out of nearest mirror (-1)

 

Easy as can be.  Don't overthink it.  Isn't this a power from Palladium's Nightbane?  Anyway, the reason the limitation is worth a -1 is because the power is used to track somebody down at a far distance.  Without the limitation, you could just pinpoint exactly where the guy was.  You'd know direction, distance, what he was wearing, etc.  "He's 5 miles away, on the corner of 74th and Pennsylvania."  But with the limitation, you know only what can be seen through the mirror.  If he's in a bathroom popping a zit, then you can see him, but you don't know where he is or which bathroom.  You have to keep using the power and wait for him to pass in front of something identifiable. 

This doesn't work, because it doesn't let you see anything other than the "Target".  If there's a street sign reflected in the mirror behind the person, this power will not see the sign.  I don't think I would allow "Target" as a thing to Detect in the first place, unless it was specifically defined when the power is bought.  "Detect Fred Farnsworth".  If it's just "Detect People" then it will detect all people, and won't let you pick one just one to detect.

 

If you want to *see* whatever is reflected in the mirror, then Detect is not the power you want, but rather Sight - in this case, Clairsentience for Sight.

 

Another consideration is the definition of a mirror.  Is it just actual mirrors, built and intended to be mirrors, or will any reflective surface that could be used as a mirror count?  How about a hand-held mirror, or a compact mirror in a woman's purse?  If that compact mirror is the closest mirror to the person, all you'll see is the darkness of the closed compact inside a closed purse.  Does it have to be a silvered glass mirror, or could it be a polished metal mirror?  How about a car's rear view mirror?  If that's the closest mirror to the target (and the target isn't in the car), your view might be moving too fast for you to catch a glimpse of the person you're looking for.

[massey]

1 hour ago, PhilFleischmann said:

 

This doesn't work, because it doesn't let you see anything other than the "Target".  If there's a street sign reflected in the mirror behind the person, this power will not see the sign.  I don't think I would allow "Target" as a thing to Detect in the first place, unless it was specifically defined when the power is bought.  "Detect Fred Farnsworth".  If it's just "Detect People" then it will detect all people, and won't let you pick one just one to detect.

 

 

 

It does work, because you can define what you're detecting however you want.  If you don't like my definition of "target", I'm not going to argue with you over it.  Whether you'd allow it or not doesn't matter either.

 

But if the original poster is trying to do what I think he's trying to do, Detect Target is what he wants.  Seeing a street sign isn't the point -- nobody cares about the street sign.  The purpose is to locate the target.  The rest is just special effect.

[Duke Bushido]

14 hours ago, dmjalund said:

how do you determine how many people are looking in a mirror in a particular area at any given time?

 

 

I'm going to run out of Rep on just this one thread. 

 

Damn you people and your reasonable discussions! 

 

 

 

[Tywyll]

On 2/4/2020 at 3:35 PM, BoloOfEarth said:

I think Penetrative would be needed.

 

Does the power give the character knowledge of the actual location of the targeted person?  For example, if the target is locked in a cell in a VIPER Nest (with a mirror in the cell), does the character using the power know where the Nest is if he succeeds in his PER roll?  Or does he just see the guy sitting forlorn in a cell, and not know where it is?  And if there wasn't a mirror in the cell, would the character get a view from the closest mirror (e.g. the mirror in the bathroom down the hall from the cell block)?

 

 

 

He doesn't know where the mirror is located and if the closest mirror is the Viper toilet, then that is what he would see out of (meaning the target may never be in front of the  mirror). But if he sees goons using the facilities, he might get a hint about where to start looking. 

[Tywyll]

On 2/4/2020 at 7:06 PM, Duke Bushido said:

I'm pretty much in line with Phi:

 

I am thinking Mind Scan with limitations like "target must be within eyeshot of a mirrror;" caster must be looking into a mirror. "

 

Call it done. 

 

Want more details?  You can use mind scan to target someone with a mental power (one you have their location).  So you can use that to nail the mirror you are seeing them through as a location to pin your clairsentience.  Add" only through mirrors" to keep with your shtick and you're done. 

 

There's no reason, I don't believe, to really over think this, since there are out-of-the-book constructs for doing precisely what you want.  

 

I'm not sure that would work. Mindscan has A LOT of baggage with it that doesn't fit the power. You need an effect roll, the target knows you are scanning them, it has potentially unlimited range, if you don't roll high enough you can only sense direction, if you roll too high you know exact location... None of that really fits. Just having the effect not work both ways is a +1 modifier (in 6E anyway). The AP's would be off the chart...

[Tywyll]

9 hours ago, massey said:

Detect Target, Ranged, N-Ray, 360 Degrees, Discriminatory, Targeting, Megascale (or just a bunch of range bonuses)

--only provides info that can be seen out of nearest mirror (-1)

 

Easy as can be.  Don't overthink it.  Isn't this a power from Palladium's Nightbane? 

 

Nailed it...

 

9 hours ago, massey said:

 

Anyway, the reason the limitation is worth a -1 is because the power is used to track somebody down at a far distance.  Without the limitation, you could just pinpoint exactly where the guy was.  You'd know direction, distance, what he was wearing, etc.  "He's 5 miles away, on the corner of 74th and Pennsylvania."  But with the limitation, you know only what can be seen through the mirror.  If he's in a bathroom popping a zit, then you can see him, but you don't know where he is or which bathroom.  You have to keep using the power and wait for him to pass in front of something identifiable. 

 

Yeah, that seems good. Is N-Ray the same as penetrative in 6e?

[Duke Bushido]

Thank you.

 

All that being the case, then even though you stated it won't work, I'm inclined to think you would want to build your power on the base of Clairsentience.  I mean, given the things you've put forward thus far: being able to see the Viper men's room (and anyone in there), etc-- this is much more than just knowing where someone is-- wait.  Scratch that.  It's not exactly _more_, so much as it is _different_.

 

But reviewing what you're wanting:

 

You want to be able to see through mirrors from up to fifteen miles away.  I understand that the hope is to find a particular target, but you also admit that you may not find him if he is not in view of the mirror.  (Weird fact about a mirror: no matter how big or small the mirror or the room, you can see the entire room from within the mirror.  It's like somehow _more_ than a window....  Kinda creeped me out when I was a kid  ).   That suggests that what you want to be able to do is put your sensory point of view at a location that allows you to perceive things up to fifteen miles away with the _hopes_ of seeing the target, not so much as actually locating the target every time.

 

Seeing through mirrors is, in this case, a handicap, as you have explained that you can still perceive what's in front of the mirror, it just may not be what you had wanted to see (that being the target).

 

So Mind Scan is out because 1) you don't want the target to know he's being scanned (For what it's worth, I've always allowed "Invisible Power Effects" bought for the purpose of masking the detect from the target- that is, a _separate_ Invisible Power Effects from the one you might buy to make your power undetectable to anyone observing you.  May or may not be an answer to your problem).

 

Detect is also out, as with a Detect, you are only going to be able to see the target.  Appropriate modifiers would allow you to get his location, etc, but based on what you put up, even if he sees the target, he won't know where the target is, so you won't need any stretching of Discriminatory, etc.  _However_, with detect, much like Mind Scan, you will _only_ see the target (provided he is in front of a mirror).  You won't see the men's room or Viper goons, etc.  So that may not be the way to go.

 

The only power that lets you see an environment other than the one you're in is Clairsentience.  (well, I suppose you could put "Extradimensional" on your Sight or something, but honestly: Clairsentience is a thing that already exists, and is tailor-made for the job you want done.)

 

 

So, before wading in and tossing out other things, what is is about Clairsentience that has you thinking it won't work?  The fact that you have to know where to put it?  That brings us to a combined power or sorts:  A Detect (with modifiers to give you a location) combined with Clairsentience; a Mind Scan (with modifiers to make you invisible to the person you are scanning) combined with Clairsentience.   

 

Or-- and you'll have to suss this out for yourself, unless you're not the GM, in which case you can slop it around with him a bit:  find an appropriate modifier or set of modifiers (probably custom) to make Clairsentience do just what you want.  Frankly, just tossing this out without too much research, I like "Uncontrolled" at the moment, and "Extra Time."  Combined, they can represent the user having to thumb through numerous mirrors within his range, and the time that would take.  But again, that's just a knee-jerk reaction.  I'm sure you can come up with something more appropriate.

 

However, as long as we're all playing nicely, let's here, if you don't mind, why you don't think Clairsentience is the tool for the job.

 

 

[Grailknight]

You really need two powers to do this. Use a Multipower because you only need one at a time.

 

You need Mind Scan to find out where to look with Clairsentience because Clairsentience(or Detect) alone will mean you have to search for your target by shifting through every mirror  in the area, one at a time with no idea where to start.

 

Builds the Mind Scan with Invisible Power Effects and limit it so it only finds things in LOS of a mirror. Now you have an idea of where to direct your Clairsentience.

 

Now make a Clairsentience that uses the located mirror as your sensor point. You can see the target but if  they cover the mirror or leave the room you're SOL. 

[PhilFleischmann]

6 hours ago, massey said:

It does work, because you can define what you're detecting however you want.  If you don't like my definition of "target", I'm not going to argue with you over it.  Whether you'd allow it or not doesn't matter either.

OK, so how much do you think "Detect Any One Specific Person, Chosen Each Time the Power is Used" is worth - before adding all the other modifiers like Range, N-Ray, Mega-Range, etc.

 

Just ike "Detect Gold" allows you to detect the presence of gold, but it doesn't locate the specific gold coin that you gave to the travelling merchant that you met a week ago on the road to Phaneinopolis.

 

"Detect People" (Large Class, Very Common = 10 points) will not find one specific person you're looking for.  It will find all people.  You can add "Discriminatory" so you can check each person you detect, one at a time, to determine if that's the one you were looking for, but that could take a while.

"Detect Fred Farnsworth" (Single Thing = 3 points) will find the one specific person named Fred Farnsworth, but it won't detect anyone else.

+5 points for each additional class of thing detected.  It seems to me that it's only fair that if the additional "class" is only a single thing, then it shouldn't cost more than +3 points.  So to detect any one specific person from a list of 50 people would cost 150 points - before adding in Range and N-Ray, and everything else.  If you want to detect any one specific person in the entire human race, that would cost approximately 3 x 7.6 billion points.  But I'm willing to be generous and only charge 1 point for each additional single thing detected, so it'll only cost you a flat 7.6 billion points.

 

If you're detecting all the people within a 15-mile radius, you could add Discriminatory and a few levels of Rapid Sense to check each person to see if they're the one you want in a reasonable amount of time.  How many people will be within a 15 mile radius?  Well, it depends on the setting, obviously.  In the modern word, there could easily be over a million.  So six levels of 10x Rapid Sensing would cost 18 points, to check a million people in the time it would have taken to check one.  If you happen to be in a big city with more than a million people in a 15 mile radius, it'll take longer, but probably still a reasonable amount of time.  And a mere 12 more points of Rapid would allow you to check everyone in the world in that time, to find the one person your looking for.

 

So, the bottom line is:

 

Detect People - 10 points

Range - +5

360 degrees - +5

Discriminatory - +5

Targeting - +10

N-Ray - +10 (Defined as "not through anything that isn't a mirror")

Rapid x6 (1000000x normal speed) - +18

= 63 points, then adding at least one level of Megascale Range for +1/4 = 79 points.

 

And that gives you a base PER roll, subject to (Mega) rMod, and other circumstantial modifiers, so you might want to add Telescopic or some Enhanced Perception, in case your target is near the edge of your range, or is hidden or concealed in some way.

[Duke Bushido]

1 minute ago, Grailknight said:

You really need two powers to do this. Use a Multipower because you only need one at a time.

 

You need Mind Scan to find out where to look with Clairsentience. 

 

Builds the Mind Scan with Invisible Power Effects and limit it so it only finds things in LOS of a mirror. Now you have an idea of where to direct your Clairdentience.

 

Now make a Clairsentience that uses the located mirror as your sensor point. You can see the target but if  they cover the mirror or leave the room you're SOL.

 

 

I rather like this, as it has the nice effect of "looking for a mirror close to the target" as opposed to looking for the target-- Mirror's don't care if they're being Mind Scanned or not.    However, I would understand if you wanted to put a custom advantage or limitation on it if your GM (or you, as GM) isn't interested in the tiny bit of handwaving required to make it all work out.

 

Yep.  I like this one a lot.  

 

 

[Amorkca]

2 hours ago, Grailknight said:

You really need two powers to do this. Use a Multipower because you only need one at a time.

 

You need Mind Scan to find out where to look with Clairsentience because Clairsentience(or Detect) alone will mean you have to search for your target by shifting through every mirror  in the area, one at a time with no idea where to start.

 

Builds the Mind Scan with Invisible Power Effects and limit it so it only finds things in LOS of a mirror. Now you have an idea of where to direct your Clairsentience.

 

Now make a Clairsentience that uses the located mirror as your sensor point. You can see the target but if  they cover the mirror or leave the room you're SOL. 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but if you use two slots MP and you drop the Mind Scan portion to activate the Clairsentience, you lose the lock and can't use the other power...

[Duke Bushido]

That would be correct, at least up through 4e.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

31 minutes ago, Amorkca said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but if you use two slots MP and you drop the Mind Scan portion to activate the Clairsentience, you lose the lock and can't use the other power...

Would you need the lock if you can just remember where the mirror was?  Clairsentience doesn't normally require LoS/LoE, just for you to define your sensory point. 

[Grailknight]

1 hour ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Would you need the lock if you can just remember where the mirror was?  Clairsentience doesn't normally require LoS/LoE, just for you to define your sensory point. 

 

This. Once you've got a location within your range you just view it.

[Chris Goodwin]

18 hours ago, Tywyll said:

He doesn't know where the mirror is located and if the closest mirror is the Viper toilet, then that is what he would see out of (meaning the target may never be in front of the  mirror). But if he sees goons using the facilities, he might get a hint about where to start looking. 

 

I was thinking of a "small pool of water", and then I saw this, and then my drink almost came out my nose.