What makes a complete game "complete"?

[Brian Stanfield]

4 minutes ago, zslane said:

 

I would agree that the 4e HSR expresses a complete set of game mechanics. But it isn't a complete game in and of itself because the reader still has to do all the work of creating a setting, creating a crisis or adventure hook, creating all the antagonists, creatures, people and places, etc. For those rare few left today with the time, experience, and talent for all that world-building, they only need the mechanics/toolkit. They don't need the HERO System to provide them with an actual game to play; they are essentially going to create that themselves. But most first-timers today aren't going to do that. The brand needs to recognize that fact and do a lot of that work for them, freeing the players up to merely tweak and adjust to taste and then get on with the business of playing out the quests/missions/etc.

 

Yup, and Hall of Champions just isn't going to cut it either. It's a great idea, but it really ought to include adventures as it's focus. And it is not going to allow for any new games coming out. My idea for Adventure HERO wouldn't be allowed, I don't believe. I think I'd need to find another publisher to do it, since DOJ just can't foster new games anymore. 

[Beast]

7 minutes ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

MHI is a good example of what I'm talking about: it's a complete game where all the decisions have been made, the setting has been written, and it is very clear to all involved what the game is about. I'm not exactly sure if you're offering it as a counterpoint because I'm not sure where you're getting 600 pages from. If you scroll back a bit you'll see my breakdown of the two books I just mentioned, and they are each well under 300 pages. Just about the same as MHI. 

 

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but you're being a bit vague. Champions is a genre book, and as DukeBushido pointed out on the first page of this thread, there are a dozen setting books. Again, I'm not sure which you're talking about. There are zero decisions made in Champions, except for the genre itself, but even that is wide open with no real decisions made. Each setting book makes some decisions, but not very many. Usually only a history is given and some backstory, but not much in terms of what is expected of the PCs. There's way too much for the GM to decide before session 0 even begins. 

 

Similarly, Fantasy HERO is extremely vague, without even a standard magic system offered. Fantasy HERO Complete is better, but it doesn't offer a setting, so there is still the need for the GM to make a whole lot of decisions and do a whole lot of work to even be able to play. The settings for 6e may be workable, but they tend to be information overload for anyone learning them. Go look at the Turakian Age thread for an example of what I mean.

 

Again, I agree that MHI is a better example of what I'm discussing in this thread. What you are bringing up probably fits better in a different discussion.

MHI is 1 book and no support

and at 60$ a bit steep as an entry level game
Hero system basic was 20$ when in print and can be used with any genre the GM just has to make a few easy choices
If I say the game is Heroic and you can use any of the 3 choices Stat based,skill based or powers based(all are 175 pts)
you are part of a group that hunts monsters for profit and have to keep it under raps as best you can
pretty much all equipment is in HSB
now to make zombies for the 1st encounter
30 body and x5 vulnerability to head shots
hand wave turning ,get bit you have to either cauterize the wound say 3 body with in 1 turn or chop off the limb in 2(min 1/2 current body ,a saw takes 2 phases and will do exactly what is needed , machete will need to roll, so you might kill or make a friend dying

[Duke Bushido]

24 minutes ago, zslane said:

 

I would agree that the 4e HSR expresses a complete set of game mechanics. But it isn't a complete game in and of itself because the reader still has to do all the work 

 

 

As it turned out, it wasn't even the complete 4e rules.     The genre books that followed did the same thing that all the HERO adventures and supplements had done before-- they added new "core rules" and options-- Skills, Talents, etc:  the very thing that 4e was supposed to solve in the first place by pulling everything from all that had gone before.

 

One of the things 5e did was-- well, just what 4e did:  pulled all that scattered stuff and put it into one place.

 

I haven't read enough 5e stuff to know, but I _am_ a bit curious:  did any of the supplemental material for 5e "do it all over again" as well?

 

We've got two APGs and periodic hints at the need for a third that suggest even 6e is continuing this tradition.

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

26 minutes ago, Brian Stanfield said:

Like I said, I don't want to rehash the edition wars thread. But if 3e was the first time they started marketing the "HERO System," (copyright 1984), 

 

You are correct with the copyright, but Hero Games was using the term "HERO System" as early as 2e to advertise "Espionage!"  (punctuation still mandatory) and the failed-to-materialize "Privateer" games.  There are instances of it in adds in the Adventurers Club, Space Gamer, and Dragon.  When I have time, I intend to do a logo rip from one of the adds, as it's the best-looking "HERO System" logo, in my opinion, and I thought it might look nice on character sheets.  

 

I can't find any proof of it, but I think Privateer may have been finally quashed forever during the I.C.E. Age, when Iron Crown released "Pirates" with dual compatibility (ha!  Apparently this meant "dual stat blocks, because little else was translated from Role Master to HERO) for Role master and Fantasy HERO (Fantasy HERO 1e for those who categorize like Chris does; Fantasy HERO 3e for those who categorize as I do:  based on which edition of the Champions rules currently being used to run the game)

 

 

[Beast]

20 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

As it turned out, it wasn't even the complete 4e rules.     The genre books that followed did the same thing that all the HERO adventures and supplements had done before-- they added new "core rules" and options-- Skills, Talents, etc:  the very thing that 4e was supposed to solve in the first place by pulling everything from all that had gone before.

 

One of the things 5e did was-- well, just what 4e did:  pulled all that scattered stuff and put it into one place.

 

I haven't read enough 5e stuff to know, but I _am_ a bit curious:  did any of the supplemental material for 5e "do it all over again" as well?

 

We've got two APGs and periodic hints at the need for a third that suggest even 6e is continuing this tradition.

 

 

was stuff left out or was new stuff created after 4th ed came out?
now I know 6th ed APG's where done with stuff left out of 6th ed but was also never in 5th ed or FREd as Steve Long said that before 6th ed was printed

[Duke Bushido]

7 minutes ago, Beast said:

was stuff left out or was new stuff created after 4th ed came out?

 

 

More stuff was created.  Some of the adventures have things in them, and all the genre books have new rules, skills, and periodically talents-- Horror HERO even launches into a massive justification for additional thematically-appropriate Characteristics (ala Sanity-- C'Thulu, anyone?), but let's face it: a lot of us had already been doing that for years by then.  Most famously were the HERO System Almanacs 1 and 2-- 1 moreso than 2, which were the then-modern equivalent to Champions II and Champions III:  Here's some new stuff we thought you might like to toss into your games.

 

Lightning Reflexes came from Western HERO, eh-- it doesn't matter.  It all got wrapped up into 5e, so if you've read that....

 

What I was curious about was if 5e had done the same thing:  "it's all right here in this one book!"  Then start pumping out books with "incidental" new stuff.  

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

Yes Duke they had new stuff that is OPTIONAL but is there so you could play the genre closer to what you might envision the Game  that the core books may lack. I mean you really want Structured attacks in the core rules? (I don’t even use them). 

[Hugh Neilson]

14 hours ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

These are all good points, but easily presented in simple form, just like weapons are. Give the damage, and any odd effects relevant to it. For example, a smoke grenade would have a thrown range based on STR, an 8m circular range of -3 to sight PER for 3 turns. Everything else would be extraneous. Several varieties could be included, just like a list of standard favorite movie firearms, and a short list of different ammunition, etc. These lists could get long, of course, but we don't need to include rules for building them, just the final product without all the information crammed in. Even 10 pages of lists is not really a design flaw, or all that annoying for the reader. These were always the things that made me feel like I was playing a game with lots of possibilities, but without the analysis paralysis of the entire tool box. I have plenty of evidence of my players asking me for lists of weapons and equipment before they even think of doing anything else in character creation. I started an entire thread in the Fantasy HERO forum on this issue when a friend of mine just quit the game because the equipment lists were virtually hidden, and there were no spell lists! So, several pages in the Resource Guide part of the book seems like a great idea.

 

Emphasis added.  Hero fans tend to "it all has to be there".  The key to a Game Powered by Hero" is not that things like the builds and every option do not have to be there.    It is that the have to not be there.  This is a game, not a system with which you can design a game. 

 

We, the game designer, decide not to include animal handling skills, animal stats, etc. and a player wants an attack falcon?  Just like every other game, you either suck it up (not in the rules), whine to the designers that we need an "animals" sourcebook to cover this stuff, or make your own.  Unlike other games, you have the option to buy the game designer's toolkit and build it in accordance with the game system's rules and assumptions.

 

13 hours ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

Yeah, that's pretty much why I'm avoiding Champions and Fantasy HERO in this particular thread. I think those vary too much by setting, and so there can't possibly be one single "complete" book in the sense that I'm talking about here. The biggest problem for Fantasy HERO 6e, for example, is that is was a genre book that offered so many options, and opened so many possibilities, that there was no single game presented but rather a toolbox for building a dozen fantasy games! Champions may be even more varied. These require very, very experienced GMs to make the decisions and trim the rules down to one game. 

 

Could we make a Fantasy or Supers game?  Sure.  But it has to be a game.  It would not have a box of mechanics - go build your own magic system/spells/superpowers.  It would have one or more pre-designed magic systems.  That's how magic works in this game.  Maybe EVERYONE who casts spells needs a wand, or a familiar, or cannot be in contact with metal - because that is how magic works in this game.

 

Superpowers might be fixed, or variable in power.  Maybe we use the USPD model and they come in different power levels, but not "buy 1d6 for x points", or maybe they are fully scalable.  Maybe some superpowers don't exist in our game - say, no mental powers.  Perhaps the only source of powers is an x-gene.  Nope, no aliens or "bitten by a radioactive kangarooo" or empowered by ancient mythological deities.  That is not part of this game.

 

But Action Hero is as good a choice as any, and doesn't need as much "pregenerated X list".

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Yes Duke they had new stuff that is OPTIONAL but is there so you could play the genre closer to what you might envision the Game  that the core books may lack. 

 

Absolutely right, as usual.  

 

My comments (forgive the lack of clarity, please: by popular-yet-kindly-gentle suggestion, I have been attempting to formulate shorter replies.  Unfortunately, it leads to omissions that reduce clarity.  I'll get better, I hope) were more an observation that what "extra stuff" in one edition becomes "core rules" in the next, which beget even more "optional rules", etc. 

 

And you know what I play.  clearly I have no problem ignoring extra rules.  

 

:lol:

 

 

 

[Brian Stanfield]

On 2/18/2020 at 8:26 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

We, the game designer, decide not to include animal handling skills, animal stats, etc. and a player wants an attack falcon?  Just like every other game, you either suck it up (not in the rules), whine to the designers that we need an "animals" sourcebook to cover this stuff, or make your own.  Unlike other games, you have the option to buy the game designer's toolkit and build it in accordance with the game system's rules and assumptions.

 

The ideal I have in mind is to use a game like this as an incentive for players to want to buy the toolkit and fiddle with it themselves. This is basically what we did back in the '80s (right, @Duke Bushido?) and is not a new concept, or even a difficult one to grasp. We can go to the HERO store, for example, and buy HERO Designer, but for people who are really curious, they have the option to buy the source code for HD and fiddle with it themselves. Same concept: HERO System is the source code and programming language. The game is the consumer-side interface.

 

On 2/18/2020 at 8:26 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

Superpowers might be fixed, or variable in power.  Maybe we use the USPD model and they come in different power levels, but not "buy 1d6 for x points", or maybe they are fully scalable.  Maybe some superpowers don't exist in our game - say, no mental powers.  Perhaps the only source of powers is an x-gene.  Nope, no aliens or "bitten by a radioactive kangarooo" or empowered by ancient mythological deities.  That is not part of this game.

 

I may have to create an entire game with nothing but heroes bitten by kangaroos. . . .

 

The supers genre is a bit more complex to figure out, at least for me. People have so many ideas of what they want to do, it seems a hard sell to create a game with only some of the powers included. I know that's not exactly what you mean, but by the time you create several kind of Blast options (AoE, NND, Indirect, or whatever variations), you may as well simply use the entire Powers list and expect people to figure it out. I think maybe this is the PhD of HERO System gaming. I think this is peculiar only to the supers genre though. 

 

I think it fits really well for Fantasy HERO though, with specific spell lists and such. People are already "trained" to use spell lists, magical items lists, special skill lists, and stuff like that from D&D or whatever else game they came from. 

 

In each case though, if this were to be the model for supers or fantasy, I think maybe they'd have to start with a setting in order to explain and understand the "settings" for the Powers in the game. We don't have to reveal the builds, but we do have to explain why wizards can't use armor, or why there are two spell systems (arcane and divine, for instance), or whatever else. These decisions imply a setting, and half the setting work is already done by the time these decisions are made. Again, I think it works less well for supers, but maybe it's still workable. 

 

Can you imagine if a new setting book came out for Champions that made these sort of decisions? Do you think it would work, at least as a starting point for new gamers? Experienced HERO players may not like a more setting-limited approach, but non-HERO people may. Since Champions was the first game I learned after a few years of D&D, I'm used to its wide open approach. I'd be a bit disappointed if I could only select from pre-defined powers lists. In fact, this is why I never picked up other supers games, because they seemed to be too limited. I can't tell if others would feel the same.

[Beast]

14 minutes ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

The ideal I have in mind is to use a game like this as an incentive for players to want to buy the toolkit and fiddle with it themselves. This is basically what we did back in the '80s (right, @Duke Bushido?) and is not a new concept, or even a difficult one to grasp. We can go to the HERO store, for example, and buy HERO Designer, but for people who are really curious, they have the option to buy the source code for HD and fiddle with it themselves. Same concept: HERO System is the source code and programming language. The game is the consumer-side interface.

 

 

I may have to create an entire game with nothing but heroes bitten by kangaroos. . . .

 

The supers genre is a bit more complex to figure out, at least for me. People have so many ideas of what they want to do, it seems a hard sell to create a game with only some of the powers included. I know that's not exactly what you mean, but by the time you create several kind of Blast options (AoE, NND, Indirect, or whatever variations), you may as well simply use the entire Powers list and expect people to figure it out. I think maybe this is the PhD of HERO System gaming. I think this is peculiar only to the supers genre though. 

 

I think it fits really well for Fantasy HERO though, with specific spell lists and such. People are already "trained" to use spell lists, magical items lists, special skill lists, and stuff like that from D&D or whatever else game they came from. 

 

In each case though, if this were to be the model for supers or fantasy, I think maybe they'd have to start with a setting in order to explain and understand the "settings" for the Powers in the game. We don't have to reveal the builds, but we do have to explain why wizards can't use armor, or why there are two spell systems (arcane and divine, for instance), or whatever else. These decisions imply a setting, and half the setting work is already done by the time these decisions are made. Again, I think it works less well for supers, but maybe it's still workable. 

 

Can you imagine if a new setting book came out for Champions that made these sort of decisions? Do you think it would work, at least as a starting point for new gamers? Experienced HERO players may not like a more setting-limited approach, but non-HERO people may. Since Champions was the first game I learned after a few years of D&D, I'm used to its wide open approach. I'd be a bit disappointed if I could only select from pre-defined powers lists. In fact, this is why I never picked up other supers games, because they seemed to be too limited. I can't tell if others would feel the same.

now for a fantasy game look at the books you will need
1 FCH(there will be stuff not covered that will need building)

2 HSG (Grimiore)
3 HSMA (fighting styles armed and unarmed)
4 HSMI (Magic Items)
5 HSB (Beastiary)
6 at least 1 setting book(Tula Morn, Turkainain age,.... )

 

that is a lot to cover and be cookie cutter(and the point of Hero System is to not be cookie cutter)

[Hugh Neilson]

2 hours ago, Brian Stanfield said:

Can you imagine if a new setting book came out for Champions that made these sort of decisions? Do you think it would work, at least as a starting point for new gamers? Experienced HERO players may not like a more setting-limited approach, but non-HERO people may. Since Champions was the first game I learned after a few years of D&D, I'm used to its wide open approach. I'd be a bit disappointed if I could only select from pre-defined powers lists. In fact, this is why I never picked up other supers games, because they seemed to be too limited. I can't tell if others would feel the same.

 

Emphasis added.  New gamers (and experienced gamers) are picking up other Supers games, so this clearly is a model that can sell.  If they want to create more, then there is the Toolkit available.

[Hugh Neilson]

Maybe that should be a Hero Selling Point - don't want to wait for the Splatbook that finally provides the character option you want?  Buy the Hero Toolkit and make the character options you want.

[Sketchpad]

On 2/17/2020 at 9:22 PM, Brian Stanfield said:

Yup, and Hall of Champions just isn't going to cut it either. It's a great idea, but it really ought to include adventures as it's focus. And it is not going to allow for any new games coming out. My idea for Adventure HERO wouldn't be allowed, I don't believe. I think I'd need to find another publisher to do it, since DOJ just can't foster new games anymore. 

 

Having adventures as a focus is dependent on what the individual companies utilizing the license would like to make, right? If you created "Adventure HERO" as a setting for Hero, it might be allowed. I'm sure someone can clear this up better than me (or maybe Jason Walters could), but I believe the license allows you to create a new setting, which would include new packages, critters, etc. But no, it wouldn't allow you to recreate or republish the rules unless you went for a deeper license with Hero. Whether or not that's a possibility or not would be for others to answer.

[Duke Bushido]

Here's a start for you, Brian:

 

MOVEMENT:  character may move 24" per Turn. Divide his desired movement for that Turn by his twice his Reaction score (SPD as we know it now).  He may move up to that number in Hexes per Action, and he gets 2 Actions per Reaction Phase.   There is no preset order, meaning he may Attack and then Move, if he wishes.

 

By default, his initial 24" are Considered to be ground Movement.  The Character may buy additional hexes of Movement for X pts per additional hex.  The character must define the type of movement at the time it is bought:

 

Ground Movement, Water Movement, Flying (select Air or Space; Space allows a default "Air movement only to achieve spaceflight), Teleporting, or Moving through solid matter. 

 

 

There; you're off to a grand start: you are using the HERO system and have preset some dials: all movement costs the same.  There is no FTL, (at least not as a power; it may exist externaly as a story-enabler, but that's it) and no Extra Dimensional movement.  There's a bit of your setting already in place: there is only one dimension.  Adventures don't occur too far beyond earth orbit.  

 

You've eliminated the hassles of Teleport:  no hard fast rules for locations, etc: if you can see it or know exactly where it's at and it's within you're range, then you can teleport to it: no locations to buy and distribute; none of the screwing around with momentum and facing and all that crap: you decide, and you decide it every time.  Much better that way in terms of understanding the rules for it and eliminates who knows how many fights about the "right way to build a teleport." 

 

You've set a dial with "move through matter." it says you can move through solid matter, and it's back to being a movement power like it was years ago, only without the ratio and math and defense, etc: you can move X hexes per Action on any of your Reaction Phases (Two Actions per Reaction Phase).  It is clearly spelled out as moving through matter, a. Movement power, and thus can't be used for "Desolidification: only versus damage" builds.  If you want a character to be immune via desolid, do it with defenses, and use "it goes right through me" as your SFX.  Better still, we don't have to sicker around with "affects desolid" or "affects solid" or declare what happens when two desolid meet, of what sorts of SFX should work anyway because we have to pick a couple of them. 

 

Did a bullet do enough damage to hurt through your "desolid" defenses?  Fine.  That's the way it works in this game: perhaps the air pressure of the bullet across its tiny cone tip bruised some of your molecules, or the super-intense heat of the bullet itself shocked your nervous system-- whatever.  The switch is thrown: desolid is movement and not invulnerable to X. 

 

Even  better, (man, look how many dials you set with just that tiny section on movement!  I'm impressed, Sir!      .), you will never run into this ultra-hilarious problem:

 

"Pyromancer sizes you up, his fingers flexing and stretching like an old west gunfighter.  The spray nozzles on the backs of his gauntlets belch four short, jet-engine-loud roaring balls of fire toward the ground on either side of him, instantly dissappating and leaving only the soot-scorched concrete and dizzying chemical smell to testify to their passing.  His breathing sounds metallic, almost mechanical through his respirator, and all you see in his goggles is your reflections, illuminated by the tower of living fire behind him.  There is no doubt that he is sizing in you up, waiting to see which of you will move first..." 

 

"Oh, I'm not worried.  I have that desoldification versus fire because my dad was a fire demon and my mother was an asbestos Real Doll, so I'm just immune.  I activate my desolid versus fire and wait." 

 

"Your nonchalance tells him all he needs to know-- in an instant, almost faster than you can register the movement he has lunged forward, twin jets of flame creating overlapping cones of dry flesh-searing death!"  (rolls dice) as he hits you with 14D6 of Area Affect white-hot affects-desolid fury, already lunging to the side in anticipation of your counter-attack....   "The scent of grilled pork assails your nostrils as your nerve endings scream in agony.  You take (counts damage) --"

 

"Wait!  It's fire!  I'm immune!" 

 

"No; you're not. "

 

"But I bought Desolid, only versus fire, light, and heat-based attacks." 

 

"And he has 'Affects Desolid.'"

 

"But I'm immune!"

 

"No; you're Desolid."

 

"But I was using Desolid to model immunity...." 

 

"Well that was stupid." 

 

"But I'm immune...."

 

 

 

And it goes on like that for _so many_ 4e creations, and probably 5 as well; who knows?

 

But you flipped the hell out of that switch, and now it's a non-starter: Desolid does t defend, so we don't need affects desolid. 

 

 

Moving on:

 

Ranged attack

 

Ranged attack: Cone:

 

Ranged attack Explosion. 

 

You're done.  Set your pricing per die for each, decide if cone is going to have any range or if it's going to start right in front of the character; Player decides at time of purchase if Attack is Indirect or not indirect (no price difference), and you're done. 

 

Price characteristics in blocks-- what is it, is it still 3 points of INT and Ego for the next plus-one on each roll?  Sell them in blocks of three.  Sell STR in blocks of 5

 

(im not keen on that, but consider this alternative: do away with some of the stats: INT goes away and becomes a 9or less roll, +1 for three points.  That's your base chance to perform INT-based skills.   Do the same with DEX.  Replace Con-stunning with a Con Roll (modified by damage, maybe?  It's youy dial; twist it how you want) and you don't need Con anymore: make a saving through. 

 

Simplify defenses:

 

He shot me with a gun!

 

What's your Def? 

 

He shot me with a lightning! 

 

What's your Def? 

 

Eliminate hardened and armor piercing and any other Def mods but one- no; it doesn't have to be Killing, but I'd recommend it just because it's pretty dadgum common in the HERO System everything. 

 

Screw martial arts:

 

Make a list of...  I don't know: fifty combat maneuvers.  Thats it, period.  Pick any 5 or 6 (or X points worth) and call it a martial Art. You don't need to rewrite Martial Hero to get a fun, playable amount of stuff In there. 

 

Alternatively, create a list of thirty free-to-all combat maneuvers.  Make martial arts a damage adder to those maneuvers.  Or create a list of maneuver elements, and the Skill: martial arts that let's you pick up to ever-how-many-you-made-your-roll-by elements that you can add to your combat Maneuver chart (one at a time) during this combat, unless you roll a 3 or something. 

 

Simplifying hero - that is, picking the switches and such you want to set in stone for a single game isn't hard; really it's not.  It just takes the want-to, the time (that's were I lose out), and the strength of character to ignore everyone telling you what you can't do in your own game. 

 

Gotta run.  Just got home and I have to feed the kids. 

 

Later! 

[Hugh Neilson]

I'm not sold that the goal was, or should be, significant differences between our Powered by Hero game and the Hero rules.  This is doubly so with Brian's stated goal to get them interested enough in the source code to buy the Hero System.

 

13 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

You've eliminated the hassles of Teleport:  no hard fast rules for locations, etc: if you can see it or know exactly where it's at and it's within you're range, then you can teleport to it: no locations to buy and distribute; none of the screwing around with momentum and facing and all that crap: you decide, and you decide it every time.  Much better that way in terms of understanding the rules for it and eliminates who knows how many fights about the "right way to build a teleport."

 

This makes sense to me, as it only pares away some of the Teleport rules, but does not change them.  Making movement "per turn divided by SPD" means a major disconnect when our Action Hero group buys the 2 volumes of source code.

 

13 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

id a bullet do enough damage to hurt through your "desolid" defenses?  Fine.  That's the way it works in this game: perhaps the air pressure of the bullet across its tiny cone tip bruised some of your molecules, or the super-intense heat of the bullet itself shocked your nervous system-- whatever.  The switch is thrown: desolid is movement and not invulnerable to X.

 

Sure.  Because it is a staple of horror movies that the solution to a ghost is a bigger gun.  I have an even easier answer for Action Hero - it does not need Desolid at all.

13 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

"But I'm immune!"

 

"No; you're Desolid."

 

"But I was using Desolid to model immunity...." 

 

"Well that was stupid."

 

Let me suggest what was actually stupid.  The stupid GM reading the character sheet, seeing the description Immune to Fire with the desolid build, stupidly not discussing that build with the player, but rather letting him pay the points for a build the GM considered  not to achieve the desired result, then even more stupidly building an adversary specifically to override the player's concept. 

 

NOTE:  I am charitably assuming stupidity here.  It could be that the GM is not stupid, but is instead deliberately setting out to show the player who the boss is, and you don't get to rely on your character concept working as planned, or me telling you I am going to override your concept, in advance.  That's a different type of stupid most commonly described with reference to the end result of the digestive system.

 

Worse, the player is likely to blame the failure to obtain "the character he imagined" as a failing of the Hero System, not an incompetent or adversarial GM.

 

To a lot of the other elements, I think we can easily remove AP, Penetrating, Hardened, etc.  Not so gung ho about merging PD and ED.  Removal of martial arts?  No issue.  Making them "something else"?  Less enthusiastic.

 

That's not to say we could not redesign elements for our "Powered by Hero Game", but that it's not a great idea if the goal is to draw them into the big overall system.  If we are making that kind of major change, it also needs a sidebar or similar to tell experienced Hero gamers we're deviating from the standard.  One of the biggest Champions competitors did a great job modifying the whole d20 damage system, so massive changes can work.  But recognize that they are massive changes which will create compatability issues with the Hero System overall.

[Scott Ruggels]

Business-wise. While the "Powered by HERO", may be a sound way of getting a game together and using that tool kit to make a game, the problem, though becomes "what game" or more precisely, where to obtain an attractive, but very cheap game license that new players would buy and be bothered to learn?mHI was an inexpensive book license, but either due to inactivity on HERO's part, or lack of sales in general, the License holder is mlving away. Which also illustrates that Licenses are temporary. (Look how many Star wars games there have been).  

 

So, how does one attract interest in a game without a license, or a marketing budget?  How does one figure out what is popular or even attractive any more?

[Duke Bushido]

Hugh:

 

In short summation:

 

If you can grasp w actions per reaction phase, I don't think half-phases into phases is going to throw you.  In my own teaching experience, half phases and zero phases into phases and segments and turns is a recurring  stumbling block.   Never had anyone not grasp OCV+11-DCV, though I seem to be unique in that, but I have new players trip over the speed chart with some regularity. 

 

Conversely, if the as-printed chart and terms cause problems, simplifying the terms may help.  Shoetwr than that: an easy-to-understand game that would generate sales for the company "HERO Games.". I am _reasonably sure that at this point, they'd sell greeting cards if it helped them stay afloat; I'd rather it be something game related and compatible with Hero, but one-hundred-percent built on direct excerpts from the books that aren't selling?  Nope; not interested. 

 

[zslane]

58 minutes ago, Scott Ruggels said:

So, how does one attract interest in a game without a license, or a marketing budget?  How does one figure out what is popular or even attractive any more?

 

Maybe someone could reach out to Mark Rein-Hagen and ask him how he did it.

[Brian Stanfield]

2 hours ago, zslane said:

 

Maybe someone could reach out to Mark Rein-Hagen and ask him how he did it.

 

The Anne Rice novels clearly helped prepare the way for popular vampire media. I'm not sure you can reproduce that. The whole goth-punk thing in the '80s and '90s was prevalent as well. I'm not sure we have any sort of equivalent sub-cultural movement these days, unless someone wants to invent Hipster: The Annoyance or something like that. Social Justice Warriors at least sounds like it could be fun, but in reality it would probably be a crappy game. 

 

What other socio-cultural currents are there today? Lots of animé, but there are already plenty of games out there, including a failed version by HERO. There are an abundance of independent games that capture snippets (Kids on Bikes, for instance, recreating Stranger Things), but tastes move at such a faster clip today I'm not sure they can be sustained. There were so many marketable franchises, and DOJ just didn't capitalize on them: the Marvel Universe, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings (hellloooo, MERP reboot anyone? I guess not . . .), or even something like the James Bond reboots or John Wick. I understand licensing is a mess, but a little bit of exposure could go a long way. They don't even have to be directly licensed. Vampire: The Masquerade capitalized on Anne Rice without being Anne Rice: The Game. Some creativity here would be great. 

 

Monster Hunter International was a great attempt at capitalizing on some popular fiction, but they ended out on the wrong side of public opinion when this guy started spouting off about his politics. I was at Origins last year and the author, Larry Correia, was supposed to make an appearance but had to cancel because of a bomb threat! People are still angry at this guy, years later. Jason Walters won't even utter the name of the game anymore. I think maybe this left a sour taste in DOJ's mouth. But I just saw that Savage Worlds has a Kickstarter for their own version of MHI, so clearly there's still interest in the franchise. Looks like DOJ simply dropped the ball, yet again, on something that has real potential but no support. 

 

I think Champions Now is the closest we get to capitalizing on the indie game phenomenon, and it just doesn't mix with any other game in the HERO System. DOJ did some great work expanding the HERO System in 5th and 6th with some top notch genre books, but as my friend said when I lent him my copy of Fantasy HERO 6e: "Cool book. Where are the rules?" Plenty of ideas for games, but no actual games out there. As far as an encyclopedia for experienced HERO gamers, 5e/6e are phenomenal! But what about new gamers? It's like in the midst of cataloging its existing material, DOJ forgot that they had to attract new gamers to sustain itself. Selling a book, only to tell people that they need to buy two other rule books (that are out of print) in order to play the first book, is just silly.

[mallet]

3 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

So, how does one attract interest in a game without a license, or a marketing budget?  How does one figure out what is popular or even attractive any more?

 

A licensed IP doesn't matter (we have all seen licensed IP games tanks and fail over the years, heck word on the street is that FFG is cancelling all of their Star Wars RPG line. And if you can't make Star Wars profitable as an RPG then licensing popular IP isn't a major factor).

 

Second, never, ever, start an expensive project without at least some marketing money set aside. This happens a lot in all forms of business and entertainment as is a tragic mistake. People spend all their money on making the product as good as possible and then can't sell it because no one knows it exists. It would be like opening a super fancy restaurant but telling no one about it and hoping people walking by and then word of mouth spreads quickly enough that you don't go bankrupt in a month or two, yet this happens all the time with restaurants, and comics and games and movies, etc... Always, always, always set some percentage of your budget aside for advertising and marketing before you even begin the project. You have $10,000 to make something? Set aside at least $3000 for marketing and advertising and create the project for $7000. A good quality project that people know about and sells is better (from a business point of view) then an amazing project that no one ever hears about. 

 

As for "what is popular", that is a bit harder. Everything is popular to some segment of the population. It is finding something that is popular with a big enough segment of the population to make you a profit, that is also not being well served in the current market place. And if it is being well served in the present marketplace (looking at you fantasy games and D&D) then you need to provide a unique enough take on the subject to steal away some of that market share. 

 

As for what I imagine/believe are good possible topics/setting for a new game/setting they would be maybe:

 

A near future Psionic Wars game where players have special psionic abilities and are being hunted or part of a big conspiracy and international corporations and governments, secret groups, etc... Powers are fixed but can grow in set strength as the players get experience. Guns and non-psionic characters can still be a threat. The powers help, but don't solve all the problems. Just make it cool and interesting with lots of plot hooks and organizations and secrets and you have a setting that is somewhat unique, has cool abilities and lots of character options, far reaching stakes, and can be tailored to however the GM wants the game to go (low powered in one city/state or world-spanning Jason Bourne/Seal Team 6 with special powers). 

 

Or I also think the time is right for another "Twilight:2000" style game. A "just right after event-Post-Apocalypse", rebuilding/gaining power and control, fighting to save humanity. Depending on the "event" there could be a horror/cthulhu twist, or alien tech twist, or just keep it grounded and real. 

 

Getting really ambitious, I think if someone can find a way to tap into a game/setting that involves (in-game) social media and status/fame as part of the in-game mechanics could be on to something. Again, maybe near future, close to dystopian setting, where characters take part in potentially lethal games and contests before a viewing audience to make money and become famous and get out of the slums (think along the lines of Running Man, or those commercials in the original Robocop movie, or some episodes of Black Mirror). Making spectacular kills or doing something incredible gains to fame and followers which can be used to influence events in the game (get popular enough and the showrunners might take it easy on you once and awhile to keep you in "the game", etc...). Add in a bigger scope and events happening on and off the game shows and such, throw in some conspiracies, make some of the games/contests the characters take part in happen in the "real world"(like the original Running Man novel) or in remote locations (a'la Lost or Survivor, but more Lord of the Flies). Pre-made adventures could be different "shows" the characters have to appear on (Like dumped on an island and hunted by genetically created monsters, while fighting other contestants. Whichever team makes it to the helicopter and escapes wins the game (and fame and money). Without following Running Man (or Hunger Games) too much could also lead to players starting a revolt or uprising to take back their lives. Social Media is big, and a game that can make use of it, in-game, can easily find a way to make use of it IRL and would springboard some free advertising and marketing. 

 

I'll try and think of other ideas.

 

(I will say as an aside that an issue that has always existed with Super Hero games (as far as I've experienced and I've been playing them on and off since Marvel FASERIP first came out)  is that the vast number of different powers and power levels makes any pre-made/sold adventures almost useless. Things that work in comic books and movies don't work in RPGS unless the GM has complete control over the characters the players use or builds adventures specifically for the characters created. Just imagine Avengers: Infinity War if it was an RPG where players had made any character they wanted. You would only need one powerful telepath and the adventure would be over as soon as Thanos reached Wakanda, as Thanos was defenseless against mental attacks. Manta, a medium powered telepath was almost able to stop Thanos on her own. A powerful telepath like Professor X or jean grey could have stopped him in his tracks. or a teleporter like Nightcrawler could have taken the gauntlet off of him in a second. Creating adventures in a super hero setting have to cover so many possible powers and abilities (see the future, see the past, mind control, reading minds, clairvoyance, teleportation, disoldification, and on and on), that basically every villain has to be almost immune to everything and end up being all the same, and every plot ends up being the same for the most part (i'm talking about pre-made adventures here. Custom adventures made by the GM can be great, but the GM knows his players and their powers going in. A pre-made adventure can account for all of that.)

[Chris Goodwin]

31 minutes ago, mallet said:

A near future Psionic Wars game where players have special psionic abilities and are being hunted or part of a big conspiracy and international corporations and governments, secret groups, etc... Powers are fixed but can grow in set strength as the players get experience. Guns and non-psionic characters can still be a threat. The powers help, but don't solve all the problems. Just make it cool and interesting with lots of plot hooks and organizations and secrets and you have a setting that is somewhat unique, has cool abilities and lots of character options, far reaching stakes, and can be tailored to however the GM wants the game to go (low powered in one city/state or world-spanning Jason Bourne/Seal Team 6 with special powers). 

 

I've wanted to see this one for years.  I've got some notes in various places for it in fact.  

 

Edited February 20, 2020 by Chris Goodwin
Added link

[Duke Bushido]

On 2/17/2020 at 9:23 PM, Beast said:

MHI is 1 book and no support

and at 60$ a bit steep as an entry level game
Hero system basic was 20$ when in print and can be used with any genre the GM just has to make a few easy choices

 

Hello, Beast! 

 

I had hoped to be at a keyboard when I had time to post this, but evidently I'm not going to get a weekday shorter than 14 hours this year, so.... 

 

In fairness, Basic is just as out of Print as is MHI, though there are still a few sellers with license for a few PoDs out there. 

 

And Basic has no more "currently on print" support than does MHI.  Theoretically, the source material for MHI is still in print on the form of the adventure books that inspired the game in the first place, though, which is more than Basic can claim.  (Don't get me wro g: I am not bashing Basic; in my own opinion, it is far superior to the two Big Books in nearly every way.   I just wish it had been called Sidekick, just because 5e did that with the "lite" edition of the rules as well.) 

 

 

But your comment about the GM having to make a few easy decisions:

 

Based on some of the Co versations o. These boards, it seems that those decisions aren't especially easy for a lot of folks, and I am betting that they are even more challenging for those not too terribly familiar with the HERO System- they are not up against just learning a new system, but they have no real grasp of what the results of their decisions could be.  I have no hesitation in proclaiming that more than a handful of us experienced GMs have been surprised and unhappy with the actual results of things we tried coming from an experienced background. 

 

Making matters worse, Basic really doesn't offer much counsel on doing this beyond telling you it's okay to try. 

 

On 2/17/2020 at 9:23 PM, Beast said:

If I say the game is Heroic and you can use any of the 3 choices Stat based,skill based or powers based(all are 175 pts)

 

Again, not something new players are going to fully understand just off what's in Basic.  Certainly they will muddle through if they are determined, but it's not the same as having made an informed decision. 

 

On 2/17/2020 at 9:23 PM, Beast said:

you are part of a group that hunts monsters for profit and have to keep it under raps as best you can

 

It's wieed: its an even mix of urban fantasy and action adventure.  You's think I would like the MHI books, but they kind of turn me off...    

 

 

On 2/17/2020 at 9:23 PM, Beast said:

pretty much all equipment is in HSB

now to make zombies for the 1st encounter
30 body and x5 vulnerability to head shots
hand wave turning ,get bit you have to either cauterize the wound say 3 body with in 1 turn or chop off the limb in 2(min 1/2 current body ,a saw takes 2 phases and will do exactly what is needed , machete will need to roll

 

You're right, of course, but that was easy for you because you k ow what you're doing and what you're talking about. 

 

It's not unthinkable that a new GM would end up buying Monsters, marauders and whatever the Hell the other thing was because he isn't experienced or comfortable enough to yet to build it on his own.

 

He might decide he needs a bestiary, too.  At this point, he has spent at least as much as shelling out for MHI, still has to dial in the rules he likes and doesn't like for his game, has _none_ of the flavor or background or setting data from MHI--  in short, he has some rules and some support material, but he still has to build a game out of all of it. 

 

He could buy MHI and not just run a game, but get some pretty nice color artwork, too. 

 

Again: either approach is valid, but I know which I'd prefer as a new-to-HERO GM, and definitely as a player. 

 

And of course, all that material that works with Basic- well, it works with MHI, too. 

[Beast]

9 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

Hello, Beast! 

 

I had hoped to be at a keyboard when I had time to post this, but evidently I'm not going to get a weekday shorter than 14 hours this year, so.... 

 

In fairness, Basic is just as out of Print as is MHI, though there are still a few sellers with license for a few PoDs out there. 

 

And Basic has no more "currently on print" support than does MHI.  Theoretically, the source material for MHI is still in print on the form of the adventure books that inspired the game in the first place, though, which is more than Basic can claim.  (Don't get me wro g: I am not bashing Basic; in my own opinion, it is far superior to the two Big Books in nearly every way.   I just wish it had been called Sidekick, just because 5e did that with the "lite" edition of the rules as well.) 

 

 

But your comment about the GM having to make a few easy decisions:

 

Based on some of the Co versations o. These boards, it seems that those decisions aren't especially easy for a lot of folks, and I am betting that they are even more challenging for those not too terribly familiar with the HERO System- they are not up against just learning a new system, but they have no real grasp of what the results of their decisions could be.  I have no hesitation in proclaiming that more than a handful of us experienced GMs have been surprised and unhappy with the actual results of things we tried coming from an experienced background. 

 

Making matters worse, Basic really doesn't offer much counsel on doing this beyond telling you it's okay to try. 

 

 

Again, not something new players are going to fully understand just off what's in Basic.  Certainly they will muddle through if they are determined, but it's not the same as having made an informed decision. 

 

 

It's wieed: its an even mix of urban fantasy and action adventure.  You's think I would like the MHI books, but they kind of turn me off...    

 

 

 

You're right, of course, but that was easy for you because you k ow what you're doing and what you're talking about. 

 

It's not unthinkable that a new GM would end up buying Monsters, marauders and whatever the Hell the other thing was because he isn't experienced or comfortable enough to yet to build it on his own.

 

He might decide he needs a bestiary, too.  At this point, he has spent at least as much as shelling out for MHI, still has to dial in the rules he likes and doesn't like for his game, has _none_ of the flavor or background or setting data from MHI--  in short, he has some rules and some support material, but he still has to build a game out of all of it. 

 

He could buy MHI and not just run a game, but get some pretty nice color artwork, too. 

 

Again: either approach is valid, but I know which I'd prefer as a new-to-HERO GM, and definitely as a player. 

 

And of course, all that material that works with Basic- well, it works with MHI, too. 

I agree Basic should have been called Sidekick or something simular

 

there is nothing stopping the writer from setting some dials as a suggestion
really the power  level suggestions on the bottom of page 14 of the Basic(Sidekick I loved that name also) rule book pretty much sets most of the dials there
the rest of the dials are pretty much what the GM and PCs agree on
there is also no stopping the publishing of pre-gens for PCs to look over and maybe with help of the GM to swap skills,talents,perks, and equipment

I know how to fake it good

1920/30's bores me to tears unless there are low power supers

what probably is needed are a 10 to 15 monster/villain pdfs for beginner games
get HSB(Sidekick) and maybe a free or really cheap Splat pdf like above, also a setting that will have followups in the future and maybe an over all storyline to follow(like TORG,VtM,7th Sea, etc)

this begging stuff should be cheap, maybe recycle some art, monster and villains
you might even get it down to say WildStrike sized

[Brian Stanfield]

5 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

I've wanted to see this one for years.  I've got some notes in various places for it in fact.  

 

 

I love your list of countermeasures! You should run with this as a game! Maybe if you write it up as a "setting," you could put it up in the Hall of Champions.