What makes a complete game "complete"?

[Chris Goodwin]

1 minute ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

I love your list of countermeasures! You should run with this as a game! Maybe if you write it up as a "setting," you could put it up in the Hall of Champions.

 

Thank you!  Maybe I will.  I'm trying to make it as editionless as possible.  

 

 

[Brian Stanfield]

4 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

Thank you!  Maybe I will.  I'm trying to make it as editionless as possible.  

 

 

 

Of course, (at the peril of bringing up edition wars) the characteristics are going to be the primary problem here. Perhaps dual-listing characteristics, or perhaps an appendix in the back for whichever edition you aren't covering in the primary text. Actually, I think that may be the best approach: a sidebar pointing the reader to the pre-6e characteristics. In the actual game itself you're going to be breaking down the skills and powers to what fit in the game anyway, so you don't have to worry about what translates perfectly between editions. Just pick what you want, leave the rest out, and then point to the appendix for alternatives. 

[dmjalund]

How about taping the popularity of the Avengers and have a Champions book with photorealistic art, including an Avengers inspired group on the cover?

[Brian Stanfield]

11 hours ago, dmjalund said:

How about taping the popularity of the Avengers and have a Champions book with photorealistic art, including an Avengers inspired group on the cover?

 

I think that was the idea for most of the Champions covers, pretty much ever. But to tell you the truth, I don't think that draws the consumer. Champions 6e is absolutely beautiful, but it didn't really save the franchise. 

 

When I first learned Champions, I was always a bit put off that there weren't all the characters that I was reading in the comics. This was long before I understood copyright and stuff like that. But I think people look at "generic" supers on a cover and think (like I used to), "Hmm, another Avengers ripoff. Where's the actual Avengers game?" I wish DOJ had the clout (or the sheer nerve to try) to license Marvel characters. They would be swimming in cash by now. As it stands, I don't think there's any way they can benefit from all the supers movies, which seems absolutely crazy! But it requires marketing, which just isn't happening. 

[zslane]

The only Marvel-licensed game to have any meaningful success was the original FASERIP system, and that was mostly because TTRPGs were on the rise at that time and finding an audience no matter what. But no Marvel- or DC-based RPG has ever really done that well, and certainly not since superhero movies have become all the rage.

 

I think we've discussed this elsewhere, and the most likely reasons for the disconnect between the popularity of the genre in entertainment media and the (lack of) popularity in the RPG space have been examined thoroughly enough that it doesn't really need to be repeated here. Needless to say, history has shown us that licensing Marvel or DC will not bear fruit.

[dmjalund]

4 hours ago, Brian Stanfield said:

I think that was the idea for most of the Champions covers, pretty much ever.

I have never seen photorealistic art on any Champions cover

[Brian Stanfield]

1 hour ago, dmjalund said:

I have never seen photorealistic art on any Champions cover

 

Sorry, I missed the "photorealistic" part . . . . I bit on the group shot on a cover. 

[Scott Ruggels]

Speaking as an artist, Photorealism is quite expensive.  Now I do think that sort of artistic direction is kind of now expected in Modern publications, as the Public Perception of Super Heroes is movies and no longer comics books, But art like that is expensive to produce, and expensive to print. I do not see HERO ever achieving the print capabilities of Paizo or WOTC.

[Sketchpad]

4th Edition Champions had some of the best covers of the game IMHO. I don't think photoreal covers will draw in any more people than having comic book artists on a cover.  

[Hugh Neilson]

22 hours ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

I think that was the idea for most of the Champions covers, pretty much ever. But to tell you the truth, I don't think that draws the consumer. Champions 6e is absolutely beautiful, but it didn't really save the franchise. 

 

 

Circling  back to the "complete game", I know one comic/game store ordered Champions based on the crossover potential of comics and games, not realizing the buyers would not have a game they could play in that big, beautiful book.  After watching that, and the Villains books, sit on the shelf month after month, they never stocked another Hero product.

[Ninja-Bear]

How about a Super Agents game? 

[Brian Stanfield]

2 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

How about a Super Agents game? 

 

That would be Dark Champions, wouldn't it? The "super" part of it entails all the powers and such, which is what I'm trying to get away from for a rebooted "complete game" idea. However, I think it should be a sidebar or an appendix item pointing to other books in the toolbox that can be used to modify the game for use as super agents or whatever. 

[Brian Stanfield]

4 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Circling  back to the "complete game", I know one comic/game store ordered Champions based on the crossover potential of comics and games, not realizing the buyers would not have a game they could play in that big, beautiful book.  After watching that, and the Villains books, sit on the shelf month after month, they never stocked another Hero product.

 

Same with my store. And probably every other FLGS around. They did get copies of Champions Complete, but it's lost in the sea of other HERO System books that don't sell, and so will never sell either. Seriously, selling a game that's not a game (Champions, Dark Champions, Fantasy HERO, etc.) is a horrible model for a store trying to attract people to games they may never have seen before. "Hey, I hope you enjoyed this book about a game genre. Now go get two (out of print) volumes of rules about a game so that you can eventually create your own game. Don't forget the setting book about the world for your game. Isn't this fun?! Hey, where's everybody going . . . ?"

[Brian Stanfield]

16 hours ago, Sketchpad said:

I don't think photoreal covers will draw in any more people than having comic book artists on a cover.  

 

Maybe you're onto something here: photorealistic covers of the artists who do the internal art! I'm sure it'll sell! 

[Greywind]

6 minutes ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

That would be Dark Champions, wouldn't it? The "super" part of it entails all the powers and such, which is what I'm trying to get away from for a rebooted "complete game" idea. However, I think it should be a sidebar or an appendix item pointing to other books in the toolbox that can be used to modify the game for use as super agents or whatever. 

 

Or the book from 3rd edition. It should still be valid.

[Scott Ruggels]

4 minutes ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

Maybe you're onto something here: photorealistic covers of the artists who do the internal art! I'm sure it'll sell! 

So... expensive...

[Brian Stanfield]

20 minutes ago, Greywind said:

 

Or the book from 3rd edition. It should still be valid.

 

I totally forgot about that one. Of course, it's not a complete game, as it requires Danger International and Champions to use it fully. But it's a great example of how a campaign book can crossover and become a game book with a few tweaks.

[Brian Stanfield]

17 minutes ago, Scott Ruggels said:

So... expensive...

 

You'll be the first cover, Scott.

[Doc Democracy]

On 2/12/2020 at 2:25 AM, Brian Stanfield said:

Maybe a game could start with the 10 page game summary from HERO Basic's introduction, and then move into the rules, before returning to character generation. I'm not satisfied with this, but it seems like something could be tried. 

Here is a challenge.  Explain HERO in a post shorter than what Duke normally posts.

 

Am gonna go and sit in front of my computer to see if I can explain HERO in 300 words or less.  Actually, I will start a new thread on this...

[Tywyll]

On 2/14/2020 at 10:44 PM, mallet said:

 

I feel a main issue with Champions has always been that the Set-Up has never really been that interesting or unique. It has been generic to allow GM's and players to do whatever they want at whatever power level they want. But that isn't very exciting. It doesn't draw many people in. There is no "cool" or "wow" factor to it. 

 

 

 

This, right here. 

 

I've been introducing a new group of players to Fantasy HERO for the last several months and so far it's...not going well. Despite the toolkit awesomeness and ability to build anything kind of approach, the players just stare blankly at me when its time to spend XP and the wide open nature leaves them cold. They want me to provide a clear dump of 'things that exist I can buy' and then not think about it. I have done this, making PDFs for them of talents and super skills and even that is a bit of information overload. They can't really envision how the stat block equates to a cool in fiction ability (I mean, I can, but most of them can't). 

 

Now, a lot of that is on them...they won't read the rules, none of them have bought a book, nothing. But I don't think my experience is unique. 

 

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that a limited selection of possibilities would have been more helpful had I gone with that initially...but, hind sight and all that. 

[Tywyll]

On 2/14/2020 at 11:18 PM, Chris Goodwin said:

 

I'm not sure we even need that.  We have plenty of system, stripped down or maximized.  I don't think we even need to reprint rules.  I'm happy enough if book X plus Champions Complete (or Fantasy Hero Compete or 6e1/6e2 or Basic or...) equals complete game.

 

And actually this would be something that could be produced via the license. If your setting/adventure guide had all the character creation templates (ala what's in Champions 5th or 6th but keyed to X genre), all available talents, powers (spell system/psychic system/etc), gear, plus an adventure...and a note saying  you need X Complete to play, that would be the closest we could come to making a 'Complete Game' for HERO.

[Tywyll]

On 2/14/2020 at 11:21 PM, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

How is John Q Consumer going to react to "Now go spend another $$$ on the rules!" though? 

The only TTRPG I'm aware of that gets away with multiple books required to play is D&D, and even then only one person needs one additional book.  Zero additional books if they're running a module with baked-in stats. 

 

Almost every major game these days needs multiple books. Pathfinder, D&D, WoD,  HERO. I can't think of any big name releases out now that don't use a multiple book format. Exalted 3rd ed maybe, but that rulebook is like 900 pages, so that ought to have been multiple books!

 

Even FATE has multiple rule books, Dresden Files was released in two books, my list goes on.

 

There are a few one and dones, but they are all indie releases or oldschool games really. 

[Tywyll]

On 2/16/2020 at 12:20 AM, PhilFleischmann said:

Exactly.  And it would also be nice to get to new role-players first, rather than as refugees from that other system.  If we can get people so understand the flexibility of the HERO System, and see the the whole spectrum of role-playing possibilities, instead of having their ideas all focused into the narrow box of that other system.  The idea that you can build and play exactly the kind of character you want.  And you can play in exactly the kind of world you want.  You don't have to beg for new options, and humbly wait for another dozen feats you can take, and say, "Oh thank you for allowing me to play a character that's slightly closer to what I originally had in mind."There's no finite menu of classes you have to conform to, no specific way that magic *has* to work, and no reason why you have to have the X ability before you can have the Y ability.

 

While I certainly appreciate HERO for this, I'm not sure how much of a selling point this would be to new players who don't have the experience of being hemmed into a class or game designer choice to compare that new found freedom to. In fact, as has been my experience, even with gamers who have numerous systems under their belts, that level of freedom can be offputting if they aren't willing to really invest in the system. I suppose for every 1 system convert I've created, I've seen 10 or so players who just floundered with that sort of freedom. 

[Hugh Neilson]

A lot of the issue is presentation.  In Hero, we tend to see

 

"Cone of Frost, 6d6 Blast, Cold, Area of Effect (Cone, 16 meters, +1/2), Constant (+1/2), 60 Active Points; No Range (-1/2), Concentrate (1/2 DCV Throughout; -1/2), Gestures (1  handed throughout; -1/2), Incantations (to activate; -1/4), Inobvious Inaccessible Focus (Ring of Frost Wizardry, -1/4), Requires a Magic Skill roll (to activate, -1 per 10 Active Points; -1/2) Real Points 17END Cost 6"

 

"Minor Cone of Frost, 4d6 Blast, Cold, Area of Effect (Cone, 16 meters, +1/2), Constant (+1/2), 40 Active Points; No Range (-1/2), Concentrate (1/2 DCV Throughout; -1/2), Gestures (1  handed throughout; -1/2), Incantations (to activate; -1/4), Inobvious Inaccessible Focus (Ring of Frost Wizardry, -1/4), Requires a Magic Skill roll (to activate, -1 per 10 Active Points; -1/2); Real Points 11; END Cost 4"

 

"Major Cone of Frost, 8d6 Blast, Cold, Area of Effect (Cone, 16 meters, +1/2), Constant (+1/2), 80 Active Points; No Range (-1/2), Concentrate (1/2 DCV Throughout; -1/2), Gestures (1  handed throughout; -1/2), Incantations (to activate; -1/4), Inobvious Inaccessible Focus (Ring of Frost Wizardry, -1/4), Requires a Magic Skill roll (to activate, -1 per 10 Active Points; -1/2) Real Points 23; END Cost 8"

 

"Epic Cone of Frost, 10d6 Blast, Cold, Area of Effect (Cone, 16 meters, +1/2), Constant (+1/2), 100 Active Points; No Range (-1/2), Concentrate (1/2 DCV Throughout; -1/2), Gestures (1  handed throughout; -1/2), Incantations (to activate; -1/4), Inobvious Inaccessible Focus (Ring of Frost Wizardry, -1/4), Requires a Magic Skill roll (to activate, -1 per 10 Active Points; -1/2) Real Points 29; END Cost 10"

 

But what if we presented these in a game Powered by Hero, where we keep the build mechanics behind the scenes.  We have already explained our Magic System.  It often uses Concentration, Gestures, Incantations, Skill Rolls and mystic foci.  Like D&D, we have defined Gestures, Incantations and Material component (Foci or Components) as Components of spells.  Our rules don't price out the various advantages or limitations - all the players need to know is whether they have to Gesture, Incant, Concentrate, make a skill roll, etc. 

 

So we change the presentation of our spells to the following:

 

Cone of Frost

Concentrate:  1/2 DCV throughout

Components:  Gestures 1 handed throughout; Incantations to activate; Arcane Focus Ring of Frost Wizardry

Skill Roll:  Magic skill, -1 per 1d6

Endurance:  1 per 1d6 every phase

 

This spell, common among Frost Wizards, conjures a burst of icy frost emanating from the Frost Wizard in a cone 16 meters to a side.  The Wizard can maintain this Cone of Frost by continuing to concentrate, and maintain the arcane somatic components of the spell.  A Minor Cone of Frost, the least powerful version of this spell, inflicts 4d6 of Cold Damage.  Most experienced Frost Wizards can cast a Cone of Frost inflicting 6d6 damage, while very powerful Frost Wizards can cast even more potent versions of this spell.

 

Cost:  Minor (4d6) 11 points; Standard (6d6) 17 points; Major (8d6) 23 points; Epic (10d6) 29 points

 

You want a 9d6 Cone of Frost that only costs END when you activate it and does not require continued concentration?  Buy Hero System and build your own spells.  In this game, Frost Wizards can only cast the spell with concentration throughout, purchased in 2d6 increments.

 

The mechanics are exactly the same, but they are presented in a more familiar format, focusing on how the spell will work in the Hero-Powered Game, not how it was constructed using the Hero System Build Rules.

[Tywyll]

On 2/20/2020 at 2:11 AM, Duke Bushido said:

Here's a start for you, Brian:

 

MOVEMENT:  character may move 24" per Turn. Divide his desired movement for that Turn by his twice his Reaction score (SPD as we know it now).  He may move up to that number in Hexes per Action, and he gets 2 Actions per Reaction Phase.   There is no preset order, meaning he may Attack and then Move, if he wishes.

 

By default, his initial 24" are Considered to be ground Movement.  The Character may buy additional hexes of Movement for X pts per additional hex.  The character must define the type of movement at the time it is bought:

 

Ground Movement, Water Movement, Flying (select Air or Space; Space allows a default "Air movement only to achieve spaceflight), Teleporting, or Moving through solid matter. 

 

 

There; you're off to a grand start: you are using the HERO system and have preset some dials: all movement costs the same.  There is no FTL, (at least not as a power; it may exist externaly as a story-enabler, but that's it) and no Extra Dimensional movement.  There's a bit of your setting already in place: there is only one dimension.  Adventures don't occur too far beyond earth orbit.  

 

You've eliminated the hassles of Teleport:  no hard fast rules for locations, etc: if you can see it or know exactly where it's at and it's within you're range, then you can teleport to it: no locations to buy and distribute; none of the screwing around with momentum and facing and all that crap: you decide, and you decide it every time.  Much better that way in terms of understanding the rules for it and eliminates who knows how many fights about the "right way to build a teleport." 

 

You've set a dial with "move through matter." it says you can move through solid matter, and it's back to being a movement power like it was years ago, only without the ratio and math and defense, etc: you can move X hexes per Action on any of your Reaction Phases (Two Actions per Reaction Phase).  It is clearly spelled out as moving through matter, a. Movement power, and thus can't be used for "Desolidification: only versus damage" builds.  If you want a character to be immune via desolid, do it with defenses, and use "it goes right through me" as your SFX.  Better still, we don't have to sicker around with "affects desolid" or "affects solid" or declare what happens when two desolid meet, of what sorts of SFX should work anyway because we have to pick a couple of them. 

 

Did a bullet do enough damage to hurt through your "desolid" defenses?  Fine.  That's the way it works in this game: perhaps the air pressure of the bullet across its tiny cone tip bruised some of your molecules, or the super-intense heat of the bullet itself shocked your nervous system-- whatever.  The switch is thrown: desolid is movement and not invulnerable to X. 

 

Even  better, (man, look how many dials you set with just that tiny section on movement!  I'm impressed, Sir!      .), you will never run into this ultra-hilarious problem:

 

"Pyromancer sizes you up, his fingers flexing and stretching like an old west gunfighter.  The spray nozzles on the backs of his gauntlets belch four short, jet-engine-loud roaring balls of fire toward the ground on either side of him, instantly dissappating and leaving only the soot-scorched concrete and dizzying chemical smell to testify to their passing.  His breathing sounds metallic, almost mechanical through his respirator, and all you see in his goggles is your reflections, illuminated by the tower of living fire behind him.  There is no doubt that he is sizing in you up, waiting to see which of you will move first..." 

 

"Oh, I'm not worried.  I have that desoldification versus fire because my dad was a fire demon and my mother was an asbestos Real Doll, so I'm just immune.  I activate my desolid versus fire and wait." 

 

"Your nonchalance tells him all he needs to know-- in an instant, almost faster than you can register the movement he has lunged forward, twin jets of flame creating overlapping cones of dry flesh-searing death!"  (rolls dice) as he hits you with 14D6 of Area Affect white-hot affects-desolid fury, already lunging to the side in anticipation of your counter-attack....   "The scent of grilled pork assails your nostrils as your nerve endings scream in agony.  You take (counts damage) --"

 

"Wait!  It's fire!  I'm immune!" 

 

"No; you're not. "

 

"But I bought Desolid, only versus fire, light, and heat-based attacks." 

 

"And he has 'Affects Desolid.'"

 

"But I'm immune!"

 

"No; you're Desolid."

 

"But I was using Desolid to model immunity...." 

 

"Well that was stupid." 

 

"But I'm immune...."

 

 

 

And it goes on like that for _so many_ 4e creations, and probably 5 as well; who knows?

 

But you flipped the hell out of that switch, and now it's a non-starter: Desolid does t defend, so we don't need affects desolid. 

 

 

Moving on:

 

Ranged attack

 

Ranged attack: Cone:

 

Ranged attack Explosion. 

 

You're done.  Set your pricing per die for each, decide if cone is going to have any range or if it's going to start right in front of the character; Player decides at time of purchase if Attack is Indirect or not indirect (no price difference), and you're done. 

 

Price characteristics in blocks-- what is it, is it still 3 points of INT and Ego for the next plus-one on each roll?  Sell them in blocks of three.  Sell STR in blocks of 5

 

(im not keen on that, but consider this alternative: do away with some of the stats: INT goes away and becomes a 9or less roll, +1 for three points.  That's your base chance to perform INT-based skills.   Do the same with DEX.  Replace Con-stunning with a Con Roll (modified by damage, maybe?  It's youy dial; twist it how you want) and you don't need Con anymore: make a saving through. 

 

Simplify defenses:

 

He shot me with a gun!

 

What's your Def? 

 

He shot me with a lightning! 

 

What's your Def? 

 

Eliminate hardened and armor piercing and any other Def mods but one- no; it doesn't have to be Killing, but I'd recommend it just because it's pretty dadgum common in the HERO System everything. 

 

Screw martial arts:

 

Make a list of...  I don't know: fifty combat maneuvers.  Thats it, period.  Pick any 5 or 6 (or X points worth) and call it a martial Art. You don't need to rewrite Martial Hero to get a fun, playable amount of stuff In there. 

 

Alternatively, create a list of thirty free-to-all combat maneuvers.  Make martial arts a damage adder to those maneuvers.  Or create a list of maneuver elements, and the Skill: martial arts that let's you pick up to ever-how-many-you-made-your-roll-by elements that you can add to your combat Maneuver chart (one at a time) during this combat, unless you roll a 3 or something. 

 

Simplifying hero - that is, picking the switches and such you want to set in stone for a single game isn't hard; really it's not.  It just takes the want-to, the time (that's were I lose out), and the strength of character to ignore everyone telling you what you can't do in your own game. 

 

Gotta run.  Just got home and I have to feed the kids. 

 

Later! 

 

I like your ideas!

 

It's funny though, some of it sounds very similar to the decisions that Champions: New Milliniuem and Fuzion went with, especially about simply buying EB with Mods as different variations on how many dice you got per point. It was a heck of a lot simpler though.