Duplication for Mirror Images

[Shoug]

I want to use Duplication to build a Mirror Images spell. I am trying to figure out how to make them ephemeral. I want them to vanish if anybody touches them, but I don't want to use Images because I want them to be capable of 2 of my powers (a Teleportation FFL and a "Hypnotic Gaze" style Mind Control). Anybody have any ideas how I should build this?

[Doc Democracy]

Well, I think you need to start by really setting out the game effects you want to achieve.  The Mirror Image stuff is all SFX.

 

The SFX is that there is suddenly three of you where once there was one.  That is useful defensively because opponents need to decide which image to hit and the right one constantly changes  It is useful offensively because powers can originate from any of the three points. Yes?

 

Doc

[Greywind]

Duplication or Images. All depends on SFX, like Doc said.

[IndianaJoe3]

4 hours ago, Shoug said:

I want to use Duplication to build a Mirror Images spell. I am trying to figure out how to make them ephemeral. I want them to vanish if anybody touches them, but I don't want to use Images because I want them to be capable of 2 of my powers (a Teleportation FFL and a "Hypnotic Gaze" style Mind Control). Anybody have any ideas how I should build this?

 

I would use Images. The powers that appear to come from the images would be bought with Indirect. 

[Ninja-Bear]

5 hours ago, Shoug said:

I want to use Duplication to build a Mirror Images spell. I am trying to figure out how to make them ephemeral. I want them to vanish if anybody touches them, but I don't want to use Images because I want them to be capable of 2 of my powers (a Teleportation FFL and a "Hypnotic Gaze" style Mind Control). Anybody have any ideas how I should build this?

Well you could just put Ephemeral as a Phy Complication.

[Ninja-Bear]

1 hour ago, IndianaJoe3 said:

 

I would use Images. The powers that appear to come from the images would be bought with Indirect. 

I like this but since the OP stated he didn’t want to use Images, I didn’t suggest this.

[Doc Democracy]

Well, if all you are looking for is to misdirect the enemy, and give alternate sources of power, you could have bonus DCV with a limited short range TP (any of the images could, when images resolve into one, be the original character) and a naked indirect advantage to put on your other powers.

 

Lots of things to do, once you define the gameplay you need.  THEN you wrap the SFX round those.

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

They can be alternate form, weaker duplicates with the desired powers and stats, 0 Defenses, 1 BOD and a 3d6 BOD susceptibility to being touched.  Pretty much anything making contact with them should do double their BOD and **poof**.

 

You will need something to allow them to heal from death, though.

 

An Amicable Summon could also do the trick, without the "dead duplicate" problem.

[Duke Bushido]

I'm with Doc.  Depending on if they can operate where you are not, I would consider buying my powers Indirect and calling the rest SFX. 

 

If they can operate where you can't perceive them, then Mind Scan (for targeting outside your normal perception) or even  clairsentience, and powers with Indirect; call your ephemeral selves SFX.  Consider "restrainable" or a custom limitation similar to it for your mind scan / clairsentience to represent your clones vanishing when touched. 

[Dr.Device]

I'd definitely go the summon route with this. The summoned creatures can be pretty cheap. Most stats can be dropped to 1, and they'll only need the couple of powers that match the ones you want them to use.

[Tech]

I didn't go with Images or Summons. I built it this way:

 

+5 DCV levels, limitation: each time character is missed due to extra DCV, 1 DCV lvl disappears. Visible Effects (your mirror images).

 

Already tested this myself for a villain and the players like it.

[PhilFleischmann]

6 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I like this but since the OP stated he didn’t want to use Images, I didn’t suggest this.

Just as a general note, I don't find this a compelling reason not to suggest the most obvious and simplest build.  He didn't want to use Images because he didn't realize that he could use Indirect with his powers so that Images was indeed the exact power he needed.  What if someone posted, "I want my character to be able to pick up heavy things with his muscles, but I don't want to use Strength."?

 

In this case, Images + Indirect on the powers specified is the simplest solution.  You get a limitation on the Images for "Only to create images of the character," and another for "Each one vanishes if touched."  You might also get a -1/4 for limited Range.  Duplication and Summon are much more complicated, and probably more expensive.  Duplicates and Summonees need character sheets.  Duplication needs a way to get them back after they're killed.  And Summon needs "Slavishly Loyal".  And the summonees need to be able to receive and follow orders - probably Telepathically or with Mind Link, otherwise:  "Which one is real?"  "The one giving the orders to the others, obviously."

[Shoug]

 

7 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

They can be alternate form, weaker duplicates with the desired powers and stats, 0 Defenses, 1 BOD and a 3d6 BOD susceptibility to being touched.  Pretty much anything making contact with them should do double their BOD and **poof**.

 

You will need something to allow them to heal from death, though.

 

An Amicable Summon could also do the trick, without the "dead duplicate" problem.

So, I built them this way in the end, but will probably be changing over to either Summon or Images. I built the Duiplicants as myself with all my powers, but with none of the characteristics (-15 total cost on characteristics). I then gave them Telepathic and "Recombine as action which takes no time." to basically make them impervious to harm. If anything would happen to them, I would just recombine instantaneously and say "The Mirror Image bursts into a cloud of smoke."

 

3 hours ago, Tech said:

I didn't go with Images or Summons. I built it this way:

 

+5 DCV levels, limitation: each time character is missed due to extra DCV, 1 DCV lvl disappears. Visible Effects (your mirror images).

 

Already tested this myself for a villain and the players like it.

This is deliciously elegant, but I want to actually strategically play around with the images. One of the powers they'll be copying is the Floating Fixed Location of my Teleport (a medallion that I wear on the neck) and my Teleport ability. I'll be using those powers to exchange position with any of my images at any time, such that I can tactically fool my opponent. Probably buying this whole thing as DCV would be a safer and more reliable way of protecting myself, but I want to have fun with this ability too.

 

3 hours ago, PhilFleischmann said:

Just as a general note, I don't find this a compelling reason not to suggest the most obvious and simplest build.  He didn't want to use Images because he didn't realize that he could use Indirect with his powers so that Images was indeed the exact power he needed.  What if someone posted, "I want my character to be able to pick up heavy things with his muscles, but I don't want to use Strength."?

 

In this case, Images + Indirect on the powers specified is the simplest solution.  You get a limitation on the Images for "Only to create images of the character," and another for "Each one vanishes if touched."  You might also get a -1/4 for limited Range.  Duplication and Summon are much more complicated, and probably more expensive.  Duplicates and Summonees need character sheets.  Duplication needs a way to get them back after they're killed.  And Summon needs "Slavishly Loyal".  And the summonees need to be able to receive and follow orders - probably Telepathically or with Mind Link, otherwise:  "Which one is real?"  "The one giving the orders to the others, obviously."

This is going to be the way I build this in the end. It seems vastly cheaper and gets the job done. The problem here is that I would also like to split up from my mirror images and be able to control them remotely. I'll probably end up buying Clairsience that works through my medallions as FFLs, then maybe I could construe that I always have LOS on my Images for control purposes. IDK.

[PhilFleischmann]

1 hour ago, Shoug said:

This is going to be the way I build this in the end. It seems vastly cheaper and gets the job done. The problem here is that I would also like to split up from my mirror images and be able to control them remotely. I'll probably end up buying Clairsience that works through my medallions as FFLs, then maybe I could construe that I always have LOS on my Images for control purposes. IDK.

In that case, you probably don't want Limited Range, and might even need extra area, if you can have one mirror image 100 m to your right, while another is 100 m to your left.  You'd need an area that covers 200 m.  But if you only send one at a time to use Clairsentience through, then you don't need the extra area.  Depending on how far you want to send them, you might need extended range, or even MegaRange.  But that might be a later purchase, after gaining some XP.

[Shoug]

5 hours ago, PhilFleischmann said:

In that case, you probably don't want Limited Range, and might even need extra area, if you can have one mirror image 100 m to your right, while another is 100 m to your left.  You'd need an area that covers 200 m.  But if you only send one at a time to use Clairsentience through, then you don't need the extra area.  Depending on how far you want to send them, you might need extended range, or even MegaRange.  But that might be a later purchase, after gaining some XP.

Ah, I'm running into a problem. I want the Mirror images not just to be a location from which I can cast my spells. I want them to cast their own spells (so I do not necessarily have to do all the Gestures and Maintaining Eye Contact and stuff). So they pretty much have to be Summons, or Duplicants.

EDIT: UGH, I also have to figure out how to make their FFLs that they're wearing on their necks to work with my Teleport.

[Doc Democracy]

I think you are now heavily into Duplication.  It should be reasonably expensive as you want to multiply the number of actions you get in a round, all under your control, replicating your powers.

 

as a GM I dislike one player being able to take more than seven or eight actions in a round, especially if everyone else only has three or four actions.  I even persuaded one of my players to take his SPD 12 speedster down to SPD 9 and only that far because I knew he was likely going to need 2 or 3 phases of recovering during a fight every turn.

 

Duplication also ramps up the number of actions per turn which can seriously slowdown a game and make other players get much less spotlight during the game.

 

Doc

 

PS:  the problem with floating locations is that they belong to the person using the power, not to others.  I might be inclined to charge more for locations that could be used by other characters.  Indeed, the additional utility might warrant substantial increases but would need to think hard about numbers for that.

 

Doc

[MrAgdesh]

2 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

as a GM I dislike one player being able to take more than seven or eight actions in a round, especially if everyone else only has three or four actions.  I even persuaded one of my players to take his SPD 12 speedster down to SPD 9 and only that far because I knew he was likely going to need 2 or 3 phases of recovering during a fight every turn.

 

Duplication also ramps up the number of actions per turn which can seriously slowdown a game and make other players get much less spotlight during the game.

 

 

 

This. Speed is the broken part of the system.

[ScottishFox]

19 hours ago, Tech said:

I didn't go with Images or Summons. I built it this way:

 

+5 DCV levels, limitation: each time character is missed due to extra DCV, 1 DCV lvl disappears. Visible Effects (your mirror images).

 

Already tested this myself for a villain and the players like it.

 

I've done exactly this for my Fantasy HERO campaign, but started at +3 DCV.  Great minds! 

[PhilFleischmann]

13 hours ago, Shoug said:

Ah, I'm running into a problem. I want the Mirror images not just to be a location from which I can cast my spells. I want them to cast their own spells (so I do not necessarily have to do all the Gestures and Maintaining Eye Contact and stuff). So they pretty much have to be Summons, or Duplicants.

Ah.  Yeah.  Sounds like you're going to need whole extra autonomous characters.  That gets expensive.  Remember that the primary practical difference between Summon and Duplication is that Duplicates are entirely under your control - they are you.  While Summoned beings are under the GM's control - if you want the Summonees to do exactly what you want, you'll need to buy "Slavishly Loyal" - and you'll need some way to communicate with them.  Also, if a duplicate is killed, it's dead, and you don't get it back (without spending more points).

 

13 hours ago, Shoug said:

EDIT: UGH, I also have to figure out how to make their FFLs that they're wearing on their necks to work with my Teleport.

What's an FFL?

[Ninja-Bear]

I would say that if he built duplicates that dissolve with a touch then they aren’t “killed” and loses points. 

[Doc Democracy]

3 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I would say that if he built duplicates that dissolve with a touch then they aren’t “killed” and loses points. 

 

So each duplicate should be built with the complication Accidental Change: recombines when it takes any STUN or BODY?

[PhilFleischmann]

1 hour ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

So each duplicate should be built with the complication Accidental Change: recombines when it takes any STUN or BODY?

That just might do it.  There might still be some very unusual circumstance where a duplicate might get killed, but that would probably be a dirty GM trick.