Value of a variant limitation

[unclevlad]

The core power is DI, 4 levels, 0 END.  

 

I'm linking an HA to it...4d, so it'll scale simply.  The notion is...the average hand weighs a pound.  Yes, well, with that DI, his weighs 16.  So he's wearing tungsten knuckles, essentially.  THAT feels like extra HA over and above the STR from the DI.  It gets 0 END as a consequence as well.  With this notion, tho...he can't turn it off, even if he wants to.  Even a *gentle* punch in the arm becomes 5 or 6d6...which isn't so gentle.  His STR in this form is 45, so casual STR is 20...8d6 casual punches.  

 

So I'm thinking of raising the Limitation on Linked from -1/2 to -3/4, due to a)  being in DI doesn't cost him any END but it has notable downsides, b)  not being able to be gentle will be a problem, and c)  it's already got -1/2 Linked implicitly AND -1/4 HA.  25 Active points...with -3/4 LImitation it's 14, with -1 it's 12.  So it's not like I'm saving a ton. 

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

I've used "Power must be used at maximum value or not at all" before as a -1/4 Limitation.  Though never on an attack, though, I've never seen somebody want to use fewer ouch-dice than they're allowed to. 

 

But what I think you're really looking for is something more along the lines of No Conscious Control.  Obviously that doesn't really fit since the character can deliberately wallop somebody, but the idea that they might accidentally wallop somebody feels pretty similar.  The - value would be something to discuss with your GM depending on how inadvertently destructive you want this guy to be. 

 

The third option is a PhysLim: Does Not Know Own Strength When Dense. 

[Hugh Neilson]

4 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

I've used "Power must be used at maximum value or not at all" before as a -1/4 Limitation.  Though never on an attack, though, I've never seen somebody want to use fewer ouch-dice than they're allowed to.

 

I'd say the key here is that he has to use it every time he touches someone - not the best guy to carry a civilian or a downed teammate off to safety.

 

Not sold on the logic - I'd bet a major league home run hitter can poke someone with a bat and not do near the impact he would on a fastball streaking over home plate.

 

For the OP, 4d6 with 0 END should be 30 AP, so 15 with -1 or 17 with -3/4.  An extra -1/4 for, basically, "always on unless he shuts off the DI" does not seem unreasonable, but as a GM, you would definitely run across some fragile civilians and maguffins you will have to either avoid touching or shut the DI off in combat.

[unclevlad]

Hugh:  you're right.  I was putting this into HD, and I'd set 1/2 END, not 0 END.  So yeah, a couple more points but it actually doesn't change the difference.  And he's not hitting with a baseball bat, he's hitting with a sledgehammer.  If it's limited to the HA, too, then his motion is already intending to have some force behind it.  If he doesn't want to hit *hard* then he has to be extra-careful when he's that dense.  (Which would most likely generally only be in combat.  He'd dial back the DI to just 1 or 2 levels to avoid the inherent high-mass issues when he's in costume but not in combat.)    Simply touching feels like overkill...but by the same token, it'd be something that would be in the back of his mind...he has to move QUITE carefully while fully dense, but that's mostly implicit with all that freakin' mass.

 

Fun fact while I was building up the notion on this guy...tungsten's density is about 19, so it's more or less the baseline.  There's tungsten steels that are very durable...ok.  There's also, did you know, materials they call tungsten bronze.  They're oxides of tungsten with something thrown in...sodium or potassium, for example.  The color changes depending on the degree the sodium fills the structural holes...golden to orange, purple, and blue-black.  Which is utterly insignificant but gives an excuse for him to rock some wild looks.

 

Yeah, I'm easily amused sometimes.

[Duke Bushido]

4 hours ago, unclevlad said:

I'm linking an HA to it...4d, so it'll scale simply. 

 

As a GM, I'd like to take a moment to thank you for that.

 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, unclevlad said:

The notion is...the average hand weighs a pound.  Yes, well, with that DI, his weighs 16.  So he's wearing tungsten knuckles, essentially.  THAT feels like extra HA over and above the STR from the DI.

 

There is no reason to not accept that.  I routinely use and allow the use of extra HA even with bare-knuckled attacks just to show that someone is "better at using his STR" to throw a punch.  I'm good so far.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, unclevlad said:

It gets 0 END as a consequence as well.  With this notion, tho...he can't turn it off, even if he wants to.

 

Why not?   

 

No; it's a serious question: I'm not following the logic here. 

 

In fact, to make sure I wasn't missing something obvious, I grabbed the brass cuspidor my wife thinks is a decorative flower pot for her violets, removed the pot of violets from it, stuck my fist inside, then swung it down onto an empty Coke can (that's how I track my kids-- follow the trash that isn't thrown away!) and it crumpled up nicely.   When I found the next Coke can, I pushed it around gently, and even rested the cuspidor on top of it-- no damage whatsoever.  Just for kicks, I grabbed an egg out of the fridge and nudged it all around the stove, no damage whatsoever.  I couldn't get it to balance on the egg (not a lot of patience, I suppose), but during four attempts, the egg remained undamaged.

 

That's why I'm not following the inability to turn off the HA, even based on density increase (fair notice: the cuspidor only weighs about six pounds: I checked that, too).

 

_OR_ are you saying that it is your character conception that he is unable to turn the extra damage off?  In which case I understand it a lot better.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, unclevlad said:

So I'm thinking of raising the Limitation on Linked from -1/2 to -3/4, due to a)  being in DI doesn't cost him any END but it has notable downsides, b)  not being able to be gentle will be a problem, and c)  it's already got -1/2 Linked implicitly AND -1/4 HA.  25 Active points...with -3/4 LImitation it's 14, with -1 it's 12.  So it's not like I'm saving a ton. 

 

 

I think,  assuming it is your goal that he cannot turn the extra damage off, I'd go for something more along this line:

 

4 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

I've used "Power must be used at maximum value or not at all" before as a -1/4 Limitation.  

 

Perhaps not that particular Limitation.  It's a good idea, but it implies that there _is_ a "not at all" option, and the problem you describe is that there is no "not at all" option.

 

The thing is, the Linked isn't in any way suffering a limitation:  it's functioning exactly as it should: it's turning on all the powers that it's supposed to turn on.  The Limitation here is the one power itself:  You can't turn it of.  I would find an appropriate limitation for that, and apply it to that power-- at a reduced value, of course, since there _is_ a way that you can turn it off: turn off the density increase.

 

4 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

 

But what I think you're really looking for is something more along the lines of No Conscious Control. 

 

This is pretty close to what I would do.

 

It's not perfect, for all the reasons that GB(i) mentioned himself: you do have control of one bit of it.  I'd probably keep the PhysLim he suggested, though.

 

 

3 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Not sold on the logic - I'd bet a major league home run hitter can poke someone with a bat and not do near the impact he would on a fastball streaking over home plate.

 

Agreed, sort of: I mean, I agree with you, but I don't know if the effect of not being able to turn it off is something that he is intentionally wanting in the character.  If so-- hey; it's a comic book.  It works for a comic book.  I don't have an issue with it for a supers game.

 

 

3 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

For the OP, 4d6 with 0 END should be 30 AP, so 15 with -1 or 17 with -3/4.  An extra -1/4 for, basically, "always on unless he shuts off the DI" does not seem unreasonable, but as a GM, you would definitely run across some fragile civilians and maguffins you will have to either avoid touching or shut the DI off in combat.

 

 

That's the one:  I don't think it made it into the newer editions (maybe it did; it's not like I re-read them), but "Always On" is precisely the limitation I'd go with.  It's perfect for a power that you can't turn off.  I'd use the reduced value Hugh Suggests for the very same reasons:  you _do_ have a way you can shut it off, but so long as you're "powered up," then you're stuck punching holes in the neighbors.

 

 

 

[unclevlad]

TECHNICALLY, you can't take Always On, on an Instant Power.

 

What you're saying, tho, is it's plausible to you, Always On fits, and the heck with it, just use it.  Since you *can* turn it off in normal form...instead of -1/2, call it -1/4.

 

The concept is that the mass itself is the reason for the additional damage.  I might toss it in as a Psych Lim, perhaps more even than a Phys Lim...has to be incredibly careful with even simple activities.  This comes up in a lot of different ways...jumping down from 20 or 30 feet won't hurt him any...but the collateral damage is significant.  You know how an athlete sometimes throws a celebratory punch after a big play?  Every now and again...it's been known to hit a ref.   OOPS!!!  Yes, well, if he does it weighing a 1 1/2 tons.......broken bones.  So he'd be very conscious of *how* he moves.

Hmmm...I gave him some martial arts, I think I'm gonna re-work that specifically into T'ai Chi because it's focused on this kind of movement.

 

A lot of the time if I'm considering Linking, there's no real downside with the main power...but DI and Growth have big downsides, so it's entirely plausible that you wouldn't use them at full value.  And here, it's definitely the case that he'd use only some of it, quite often.  He's got a lot linked to it...hardened, impenetrable resistant protection and damage negation.  Yeah, it's all set up to scale per level.

[Hugh Neilson]

9 hours ago, unclevlad said:

TECHNICALLY, you can't take Always On, on an Instant Power.

 

TECHNICALLY, it's also not Persistent.  PRACTICALLY it is not "Always On" - it is "limited power", which is TECHNICALLY within RAW.

 

Duke covers my issue with the concept perfectly.  You can nudge the egg around with a sledgehammer, even if you are a brawny bodybuilding.  Put the hammer on top of the egg, and the weight alone will crush it - so your character should refrain from walking on eggs, or less sturdy floors (which is already covered in that Extra Mass).

[Duke Bushido]

11 hours ago, unclevlad said:

TECHNICALLY, you can't take Always On, on an Instant Power.

 

What you're saying, tho, is it's plausible to you, Always On fits, and the heck with it, just use it.  Since you *can* turn it off in normal form...instead of -1/2, call it -1/4.

 

That's it in a nutshell.

 

One of the editions-- Chris Goodwin can probably help you there, as he has a phenomenal memory for what came from where, whereas I am, as our own Lord Liaden once joked, more of a "frustrated librarian.".     -  specified that prior to taking the Always On limitation, the power must be bought to Persistent and Zero Endurance, etc.  In the end, it became a Limitation that cost a fortune. 

 

I have to wonder if that amalgamation wasn't the inspiration for "damage shield," honestly. 

 

 

I still require "zero END," at least if you want to remain conscious very long, but tend to wave the Persistent requirement, instead ruling that we can use judgment to determine when it takes effect and when it doesnt: if your character is not touching someone, it's hard to justify that your HA is affecting them, right?  So why does it need to be persistent?  Is he an incorrigible shadow boxer or something? 

 

Anyway, for my money, you've nailed it: a - 1/4 Always On and I'd let the concept run. 

 

 

11 hours ago, unclevlad said:

I might toss it in as a Psych Lim, perhaps more even than a Phys Lim...has to be incredibly careful with even simple activities. 

 

I'd let that fly, too. 

 

 

 

11 hours ago, unclevlad said:

A lot of the time if I'm considering Linking, there's no real downside with the main power

 

I am not certain that there has to be, at least no to Link another power to it.  I have been under the (perhaps erroneous) impression that the discount only applies to the power that is limited by the "base power.". In this case, the 

 

 

11 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

 

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

TECHNICALLY, it's also not Persistent.  PRACTICALLY it is not "Always On" - it is "limited power", which is TECHNICALLY within RAW.

 

Which by default allows you to build a limitation for a non-persistent power that you can't not use, and call it Always On, - 1/4, totally within the rules.  Hugh's got you covered. 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Duke covers my issue with the concept perfectly.  You can nudge the egg around with a sledgehammer, even if you are a brawny bodybuilding.  Put the hammer on top of the egg, and the weight alone will crush it - so your character should refrain from walking on eggs, or less sturdy floors (which is already covered in that Extra Mass)

 

To be fair, I posted the example so that I could get clarification as to whether this was part of the concept or part of a misunderstanding. Turns out it's concept, and as it's appropriate to the source material, I have no issue with it. 

[Ninja-Bear]

Just call it side effects or Beam. Beam I know is more for blasts but you cannot spread nor reduce the dice, IOW maximum damage. -1/4 sounds fair.

[pawsplay]

I'd say this is the Doesn't Know His Own Strength Complication, plus Full Strength Only (-1/4) on the the 4d6 HA. He can slap someone with less commitment if he wants to (just STR), but if he punches, his hand is like a hammer. Aside from not being able to use less dice, I'd suggest he also can't Pull Punch with his HA either.