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pawsplay

Original PC: Joules

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A first draft:

 

JOULES

 

10 STR 0

20 DEX 20

20 CON 10

15 INT 5

15 EGO 5

16 PRE 6

 

6 OCV 15

6 DCV 15

3 OMCV 0

4 DMCV 3

4 SPD 20

 

4 PD 2

6 ED 4

8 REC 4

40 END 4

15 BODY 5

40 STUN 10

 

SKILLS

3 Bureucratics 12-

3 Charm 12-

3 CK: base city 12-

3 Combat Driving 13-

15 +3 CSLs with Electrical Blast powers

3 Conversation 12-

3 Forgery 12-

3 Gambling 12-

3 High Society 12-

3 KS: History 12-

1 Language (French, fluent conversation)

2 Mechanics proficiency 10-

3 Persuasion 12-

3 PS: Antiques dealer 12-

3 PS: Softball 13-

3 Teamwork 13-

3 Trading 12-

 

PERKS

5 Contact: Mayor 11- (access to major institutions)

2 Fringe Beneift (hero)

5 Money (well off)

1 Positive Reputation (hero of the city, recognized 11-) +1/1d6

30 Vehicle (Suzuki Hayabusa), 2.5x1x1m, 200 kg (-1), STR 20, DEF 4, BODY 11, DEX 20, OCV 7, DCV 7, SPD 4, Move 62 x 4 (Max 992m)

 

TALENTS

6 Combat Luck (rPD 3, rED 3)

 

POWERS

60 Electrical Blast: Multipower, 60 point reserve

6f 1) Lightning Blast: 12d6 Blast against ED

4f 2) Shocking Bolt: 9d6 Blast, Half END, No Knockback

6f 3) Immobilize: 6d6 Entangle, Takes No Damage From Attacks

4f 4) Repulsion: 8d6 Blast, Double Knockback, x2 END

 

12 Electrical Levitation: 18m Flight, x2 END

24 Champ Electrique: Blast 3d6, Area (radius 4m), Mobile (up to 24m), No Knockback, No Range, Personal Immunity

13 Detect Electrical Current, Ranged, Increased Arc 360 degree

34 Invulnerability: 20 rED Resistant Protection, Only Protects Against Electricity and Power Defense 6, Only Protects Against Electricity-based Adjustment Powers and Resistant Energy Damage Reduction 25%, Only Protects Against Electricity

 

 

 

COMPLICATIONS

10 DNPC: Cheryl Blair (Normal, Frequently)

15 Physical Complication: Deaf in left ear (-3 to Hearing PER Rolls; Frequently, Slightly Impairing)

10 Psychological Complication: In love with Cheryl (Uncommon, Strong)

15 Psychological Complication: Overconfident (Very Common, Moderate)

10 Rivalry: Daniel Erikson (Romantic, Very Superior position, Unaware of Rivalry, Outdo)

15 Social Complication: Public Identity (Frequently, Major)

5 Social Complication: Secret (affair with Cheryl (Infrequently, Minor)

 

 

COSTS

Characteristics 128

Skills 60

Perks 43

Talents 6

Powers 163

 

Background/History: Tiffany Morgan grew up in an affluent family. A childhood accident revealed her mutant ability to absorb and project electricity. Tiffany's mother Ashleigh made her keep her powers a secret and forbade her from practicing with them. Much to her parents' chagrin, Tiffany became a liberal arts major, and then joined a women's softball team. After college, Tiffany worked as a furniture dealer before opening her own high-end antique furniture business. Her destiny changed when she witnssed a supervillain attack on TV, and rushing to the scene, used her powers for the first time in public. At first adopting a mask and racing costume, Tiffany was not able to hide her identity for long.

Tiffany is deaf in her left ear, the result of a childhood ball accident. Tiffany has had an on-again, off-again romantic affair with her assistant Cheryl Blair, something that could blow up in her face or be used against her if it became widely known.

 

Personality/Motivation: As Joules, she is a confident, swaggering hero. Privately, she is self-conscious about her powers, not having much experience in using them with any force. Tiffany sticks up for innocent bystanders and will not hesitate to challenge any terrorist or villain -- regardless of their powers.

 

Quote: "I'm afraid I'm going to have to charge you for that."

 

Powers/Tactics: Joules is a straightforward combatant, using distance and safety to launch powerful attacks. Joules can manifest her powers as a variety of megavolt effects. She is all but invulnerable to electricity herself. Joules is bold and inspired, sometimes to a reckless degree.

 

Appearance: Tiffany is an athletic, light-skinned woman with a blond pixie cut hairstyle. In her day to day life, she prefers a little more elegance than a typical preppie look, often sporting stylish suits. As Joules, she wears a dragonfly green domino mask, a cream-colored jacket, green riding pants, and high black boots.

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I love the concept.  Now I am going to look at it from a GM PoV.

 

Stats  OK

 Perks:  Why the vehicle?  She can fly.  If this is something for her Normal ID then let her have it at no points.  Even if it is to get fast from Point A to Point B, then you don't need that many points.

 

Powers:  I like the MP and the other ones.  To save points use the Unified limitation (-1/4).  This means when one gets drained, they all get drained.  Then use the points to get some Resistant Defenses like a force field or something.  Right now her defenses are 7 PD and 9 ED.  A flame blast of 12 d6 (equal to her main attack ) will do average 12 body and 42 stun.  Subtract 9 ED and we get 3 body / 33 stun.  She is now con stunned, flat footed and if hit again is in GMs discretion land for recovery.  Sorry NOPE!  Get some extra PD and ED at least 10/10.  

 

A good line to follow is OCV/DCV 7 (+3), Spd 5, attacks-Active points before advantages 50 (62 with) and 25/25 defense.  So you have OCV/DCV 6 (+3) A little below.  Spd 4, a little below.  Attacks AP 60. a little above.  Defenses 4/6 and the special.  The special is again GMs perview (how often is she going to get attacked by an electrical villain) so the rest is way too low.  

 

Complications:  I like the LGBT+ take.  there is some real good Role playing opportunities here.  As a GM I'd love to explore this.  Maybe even her coming out as a public lesbian.  How would that be perceived?  Accepted?  Villified?

 

So with the provisos I have mentioned, I'd take her in!

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A lightning field that interferes with an attack

 

OR

 

A point defense ability where she shoots a target to stop it

 

OR

 

An electrically re-enforced skin

 

OR

 

This is super heroes, anything can make sense. 

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I'm not on bulky defenses but I boosted her SPD to 5 which will help with using Block. The rest went to REC and STUN..

 

JOULES

 

10 STR 0

20 DEX 20

20 CON 10

15 INT 5

15 EGO 5

16 PRE 6

 

6 OCV 15

6 DCV 15

3 OMCV 0

4 DMCV 3

5 SPD 30

 

4 PD 2

6 ED 4

10 REC 6

40 END 4

15 BODY 5

44 STUN 12

 

SKILLS

3 Bureucratics 12-

3 Charm 12-

3 CK: base city 12-

3 Combat Driving 13-

15 +3 CSLs with Electrical Blast powers

3 Conversation 12-

3 Forgery 12-

3 Gambling 12-

3 High Society 12-

3 KS: History 12-

1 Language (French, fluent conversation)

2 Mechanics proficiency 10-

3 Persuasion 12-

3 PS: Antiques dealer 12-

3 PS: Softball 13-

3 Teamwork 13-

3 Trading 12-

 

PERKS

5 Contact: Mayor 11- (access to major institutions)

2 Fringe Beneift (hero)

5 Money (well off)

1 Positive Reputation (hero of the city, recognized 11-) +1/1d6

30 Vehicle (Suzuki Hayabusa), 2.5x1x1m, 200 kg (-1), STR 20, DEF 4, BODY 11, DEX 20, OCV 7, DCV 7, SPD 4, Move 62 x 4 (Max 992m)

 

TALENTS

6 Combat Luck (rPD 3, rED 3)

 

POWERS

48Electrical Blast: Multipower, 60 point reserve, Unified Power

5f 1) Lightning Blast: 12d6 Blast against ED, Unified Power

4f 2) Shocking Bolt: 9d6 Blast, Half END, No Knockback, Unified Power

5f 3) Immobilize: 6d6 Entangle, Takes No Damage From Attacks, Unified Power

4f 4) Repulsion: 8d6 Blast, Double Knockback, x2 END, Unified Power

 

12 Electrical Levitation: 18m Flight, x2 END

24 Champ Electrique: Blast 3d6, Area (radius 4m), Mobile (up to 24m), No Knockback, No Range, Personal Immunity

13 Detect Electrical Current, Ranged, Increased Arc 360 degree

34 Invulnerability: 20 rED Resistant Protection, Only Protects Against Electricity and Power Defense 6, Only Protects Against Electricity-based Adjustment Powers and Resistant Energy Damage Reduction 25%, Only Protects Against Electricity

 

 

 

COMPLICATIONS

10 DNPC: Cheryl Blair (Normal, Frequently)

15 Physical Complication: Deaf in left ear (-3 to Hearing PER Rolls; Frequently, Slightly Impairing)

10 Psychological Complication: In love with Cheryl (Uncommon, Strong)

15 Psychological Complication: Overconfident (Very Common, Moderate)

10 Rivalry: Daniel Erikson (Romantic, Very Superior position, Unaware of Rivalry, Outdo)

15 Social Complication: Public Identity (Frequently, Major)

5 Social Complication: Secret (affair with Cheryl (Infrequently, Minor)

 

 

COSTS

Characteristics 142

Skills 60

Perks 43

Talents 6

Powers 149

 

 

Background/History: Tiffany Morgan grew up in an affluent family. A childhood accident revealed her mutant ability to absorb and project electricity. Tiffany's mother Ashleigh made her keep her powers a secret and forbade her from practicing with them. Much to her parents' chagrin, Tiffany became a liberal arts major, and then joined a women's softball team. After college, Tiffany worked as a furniture dealer before opening her own high-end antique furniture business. Her destiny changed when she witnssed a supervillain attack on TV, and rushing to the scene, used her powers for the first time in public. At first adopting a mask and racing costume, Tiffany was not able to hide her identity for long.

Tiffany is deaf in her left ear, the result of a childhood ball accident. Tiffany has had an on-again, off-again romantic affair with her assistant Cheryl Blair, something that could blow up in her face or be used against her if it became widely known.

 

Personality/Motivation: As Joules, she is a confident, swaggering hero. Privately, she is self-conscious about her powers, not having much experience in using them with any force. Tiffany sticks up for innocent bystanders and will not hesitate to challenge any terrorist or villain -- regardless of their powers.

 

Quote: "I'm afraid I'm going to have to charge you for that."

 

Powers/Tactics: Joules is a straightforward combatant, using distance and safety to launch powerful attacks. Joules can manifest her powers as a variety of megavolt effects. She is all but invulnerable to electricity herself. Joules is bold and inspired, sometimes to a reckless degree.

 

Appearance: Tiffany is an athletic, light-skinned woman with a blond pixie cut hairstyle. In her day to day life, she prefers a little more elegance than a typical preppie look, often sporting stylish suits. As Joules, she wears a dragonfly green domino mask, a cream-colored jacket, green riding pants, and high black boots.

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I echo the comment that your defenses will leave you Stunned or KOd far more often than you likely want, or expect.  Block is not going to help much.  A 5 SPD is typical in most Supers games – very few Supers drop to a 4, and a significant portion have a 6.  More to the point, they have OCVs in the 8 – 10 range, so you need a pretty good roll to Block with a 6 OCV.  Your 6 DCV means you will get hit by the typical attack.

 

You’re investing 24 points in Champ Electrique, which will not be good for much.  Your defenses are extremely low and, ignoring your special electrical resistance, you would only take 2 STUN from this.  A higher-powered version as a multipower slot may be a better idea.

 

You describe combat style of using distance, but your OCV is already low, so you can’t afford range modifiers.  As well, your movement rate is not going to let you keep a significant distance, especially when it is tiring (double END).

 

If you plan to use the motorcycle in combat, I’d probably align its SPD with yours.  I’m not sure why it needs a 7 OCV.

A lot depends on the nature of the game.  The motorcycle will work better if the campaign is in a single city than if it is globetrotting. As well, comments on CV, defenses, SPD, etc. are pretty useless in a vacuum.  I, and I think others, are assuming "standard 400 point Supers".

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12 minutes ago, pawsplay said:

OCV with electrical powers could be 9.

With any range modifiers is 7 or less, below average-campaign-standard DCV of 8.  And she's slow so can't maintain spacing so can't rely on any particular distance. 

The idea of "Fragile character uses range as defense" does not work with your implementation. 

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A ranged attack against a target within 8 meters suffers no penalty for range.  9 - 16 meters results in a -2 penalty; 17-32 meters is a -4 penalty; and so on (each doubling imposing a further -2 OCV penalty).  Characters with 8 OCV, 8 DCV, a few (2 or 3) skill levels with their primary attack and 5-6 SPD are pretty standard for a 400 point Supers game (flowing from the sample characters in 6e Vol 2). 

 

Damage of 10 - 12d6 and defenses around 20 (about half resistant) are also pretty standard, with CON around 23 - 30.  As an average 12d6 hit will roll 42 STUN, CON + DEF = 43+ is pretty standard to avoid being Stunned by a typical hit.

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I know how range penalties work, I'm just not sure they are being brought up specifically.

Ok, so you are comparing a high end attack against a character with a low-end defense.

I'm looking at Esper, and it looks like Joules is in a much better position to clean the clock of Esper than the reverse. Fighting Green Dragon solo would be rough, for sure.

I get not making characters too squishy, but putting two offense heavy characters against each other is fairly likely to be lopsided. Against a team of SWAT guys she would mop the floor with them.

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1 hour ago, pawsplay said:

I know how range penalties work, I'm just not sure they are being brought up specifically.

Ok, so you are comparing a high end attack against a character with a low-end defense.

I'm looking at Esper, and it looks like Joules is in a much better position to clean the clock of Esper than the reverse. Fighting Green Dragon solo would be rough, for sure.

I get not making characters too squishy, but putting two offense heavy characters against each other is fairly likely to be lopsided. Against a team of SWAT guys she would mop the floor with them.

No, she'd get shot a bunch and go down.  In fact, let's test that.  I'm pitting Joules as written against a squad of "Cop, Experienced/Tough" as described on p220 of Predators (Dark Champions, 5e) since that's the only SWAT-like writeup I can find.  Wikipedia says a squad is 7-12 men, let's go for seven. 

I'll assume any hit from anything in her Multipower is enough to keep a cop down for the entire fight unless she deliberately draws the fight out. 

 

Aggressive Joules:

Phase 12:

Joules moves to expose two cops (6&7) to Champ Electrique.  AoE automatically hits, rolls 12 and 10 STUN.  Cop6 makes armor activation roll, takes 2 STUN (22 Left).  Cop7 fails armor activation roll, takes 7 STUN (17 left).  7 cops left (24,24,24,24,24,22,17)

Joules allocates CSLs to OCV and shoots Cop1: OCV 9 against DCV 5.  Rolls 10, needed 15-, hits.  6 cops left (KO,24,24,24,24,22,17). 

Cop2 shoots Joules, OCV 8 against DCV 6.  Rolls 14, needed 13-, misses. 

Cop3 shoots Joules, OCV 8 against DCV 6.  Rolls 6, needed 13-, hits.  2d6-1 KA rolls 6 BODY x3 STUN, raw damage of 6 BODY, 18 STUN.  Joules takes 3 BODY, 11 STUN (12 BODY 33 STUN left). 

Cop4 shoots Joules, OCV 8 against DCV 6.  Rolls 8, needed 13-, hits.  2d6-1 KA rolls 7 BODY x1 STUN, raw damage of 7 BODY, 7 STUN.  Joules takes 4 BODY, 4 STUN (8 BODY 29 STUN left). 

Cop5 shoots Joules, OCV 8 against DCV 6.  Rolls 11, needed 13-, hits.  2d6-1 KA rolls 7 BODY x3 STUN, raw damage of 7 BODY, 21 STUN.  Joules takes 4 BODY, 14 STUN (4 BODY 15 STUN left). 

Cop6 shoots Joules, OCV 8 against DCV 6.  Rolls 8, needed 13-, hits.  2d6-1 KA rolls 9 BODY x3 STUN, raw damage of 9 BODY, 27 STUN.  Joules takes 6 BODY, 20 STUN (-2 BODY -5 STUN left, STUNNED, KO'd).  Joules is now slowly dying, and should probably surrender. 

Cop7 clubs Joules with his tonfa, OCV 5 against DCV 0.  Rolls 16, needed 16-, hits.  3d6 Normal rolls 14 STUN, doubled for KO'd target, raw damage of 3 BODY 28 STUN.  Joules takes 0 BODY 24 STUN (-2 BODY -29 STUN left). 

 

Post-12:

Joules gets a Recovery, but loses 1 BODY.  +9 STUN.  (-3 BODY -20 STUN left). 

 

Phase 3:

Joules gets a Recovery.  +10 STUN.  (-3 BODY -10 STUN left). 

 

Phase 4:

Six cops beat Joules senseless.  End of fight. 

 

Well, that didn't go well.  Let's try a defensive approach. 

Defensive Joules:

Phase 12:

Joules moves high enough for a -4 Range Modifier, allocates CSLs to DCV. 

Joules shoots Cop1: OCV 2 against DCV 5.  Rolls 9, needed 8-, misses.  7 cops left (24,24,24,24,24,24,24). 

Cop1 braces and shoots Joules, OCV 6 against DCV 9.  Rolls 7, needed 8-, hits.  2d6-1 KA rolls 9 BODY x2 STUN, raw damage of 9 BODY, 18 STUN.  Joules takes 6 BODY, 11 STUN (9 BODY 33 STUN left). 

Cop2 braces and shoots Joules, OCV 6 against DCV 9.  Rolls 14, needed 8-, misses. 

Cop3 braces and shoots Joules, OCV 6 against DCV 9.  Rolls 9, needed 8-, misses. 

Cop4 braces and shoots Joules, OCV 6 against DCV 9.  Rolls 14, needed 8-, misses. 

Cop5 braces and shoots Joules, OCV 6 against DCV 9.  Rolls 8, needed 8-, hits.  2d6-1 KA rolls 8 BODY x3 STUN, raw damage of 8 BODY, 24 STUN.  Joules takes 5 BODY, 17 STUN (4 BODY 16 STUN left). 

 

Post-12:

Joules gets a Recovery.  +10 STUN.  (4 BODY 26 STUN left). 

 

Phase 3:

Joules shoots Cop1: OCV 2 against DCV 3.  Rolls 8, needed 10-, hits.  6 cops left (KO,24,24,24,24,24,24). 

 

Phase 4:

Cop2 braces and shoots Joules, OCV 6 against DCV 9.  Rolls 13, needed 8-, misses. 

Note: Why didn't Joules Abort?  Because the cops would have Delayed.  A very slow grindy post-12 dependent strategy is plausible, but god no I'm not running that. 

Cop3 braces and shoots Joules, OCV 6 against DCV 9.  Rolls 11, needed 8-, misses. 

Cop4 braces and shoots Joules, OCV 6 against DCV 9.  Rolls 16, needed 8-, misses. 

Cop5 braces and shoots Joules, OCV 6 against DCV 9.  Rolls 6, needed 8-, hits.  2d6-1 KA rolls 7 BODY x1 STUN, raw damage of 7 BODY, 7 STUN.  Joules takes 4 BODY, 4 STUN (0 BODY 22 STUN left).  Joules is now slowly dying, and should probably surrender. 

Cop6 braces and shoots Joules, OCV 6 against DCV 9.  Rolls 15, needed 8-, misses. 

Cop7 braces and shoots Joules, OCV 6 against DCV 9.  Rolls 8, needed 8-, hits.  2d6-1 KA rolls 7 BODY x3 STUN, raw damage of 7 BODY, 21 STUN.  Joules takes 4 BODY, 14 STUN (-4 BODY 8 STUN left). 

 

Phase 5:

Joules shoots Cop2: OCV 2 against DCV 3.  Rolls 12, needed 10-, misses.  6 cops left (KO,24,24,24,24,24,24). 

 

Phase 8:

Joules shoots Cop2: OCV 2 against DCV 3.  Rolls 10, needed 10-, hits.  5 cops left (KO,KO,24,24,24,24,24). 

Cop3 braces and shoots Joules, OCV 6 against DCV 9.  Rolls 10, needed 8-, misses. 

Cop4 braces and shoots Joules, OCV 6 against DCV 9.  Rolls 11, needed 8-, misses. 

Cop5 braces and shoots Joules, OCV 6 against DCV 9.  Rolls 11, needed 8-, misses. 

Cop6 braces and shoots Joules, OCV 6 against DCV 9.  Rolls 7, needed 8-, hits.  d6-1 KA rolls 5 BODY x3 STUN, raw damage of 5 BODY, 15 STUN.  Joules takes 2 BODY, 8 STUN (-2 BODY 0 STUN left).  Joules is KO'd. 

Cop7 braces and shoots Joules, OCV 6 against DCV 0.  Rolls 10, needed 17-.  d6-1 KA rolls 6 BODY x2 STUN with additional x2 STUN for KO'd target, raw damage of 6 BODY, 24 STUN.  Joules takes 6 BODY, 20 STUN (-8 BODY -20 STUN left). 

At end of Segment, Electrical Levitation turns off due to KO.  Joules falls 17m, takes 8d6 normal.  8d6 normal rolls 8 BODY 29 STUN, doubled to 58 STUN.  Joules takes 4 BODY 54 STUN.  (-8 BODY -74 STUN left).  End of fight. 

 

That went better, but still not a victory. 

 

Conclusion: Joules BADLY needs more defense.  Even half a dozen extra points would have made a huge difference. 

 

Edit: Oh, and I'm probably running Minimum Damage From Injuries wrong and Joules should be taking a few more STUN per hit.  There's just enough ambiguity for me to shrug and assume the best-case for Joules. 

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Why would Joules fly away from guys with guns? Why isn't she using Dodge despite her SPD advantage? Why is she engaged in a stationary shootout with multiple opponents? Why isn't she spreading her attacks? And who are these squads of cops running around with Legendary OCV levels?

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38 minutes ago, pawsplay said:

Why would Joules fly away from guys with guns?

 

Because, with 3 Resistant Defenses, she is pretty easy to kill with a gun.  What tactics do you think she would logically use in this scenario?

 

38 minutes ago, pawsplay said:

Why isn't she using Dodge despite her SPD advantage?

 

Because that would provide the same +3 DCV she received from assigning her skill levels to DCV, and she cannot attack while dodging, so she cannot use her Electric Attack skill levels and Dodge at the same time.

 

44 minutes ago, pawsplay said:

Why is she engaged in a stationary shootout with multiple opponents?

 

I assume because she was so confident she could mop the floor with a squad of SWAT agents.  If she decided to flee, she might escape.  Will fleeing the scene be her usual approach to combat?

 

 

44 minutes ago, pawsplay said:

Why isn't she spreading her attacks?

A valid question - how far apart are the cops standing?  How many dice do you want to sacrifice? 8d6 vs 5 or 10 defenses will at least STUN an average member of this SWAT team.  Actually, spreading for a lot of area would pretty much duplicate that Champs Electrique, further highlighting its lack of utility.

 

44 minutes ago, pawsplay said:

And who are these squads of cops running around with Legendary OCV levels?

 

As indicated above, they are "Experienced/Tough Cops" as defined in a Hero product.  I believe they have OCV 5 (so not Legendary) and +1 OCV with their guns, judging by the description.  Few of those hits were just barely, or only by one, so dropping their OCV by 1 or 2 might drag it out a bit more, but will not likely change the outcome.

 

 

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9 hours ago, pawsplay said:

Ok, so you are comparing a high end attack against a character with a low-end defense.

 

In a typical 400 point Supers game, 6 DCV and single digit defenses is below "low end" defense, and 12d6 is a pretty typical attack.  You will not weather a 10d6 attack (average roll of 35) a lot better, though.

 

9 hours ago, pawsplay said:

I'm looking at Esper, and it looks like Joules is in a much better position to clean the clock of Esper than the reverse. Fighting Green Dragon solo would be rough, for sure.

 

I'm not looking at Esper, but I will guess she has a 6d6 Mental Blast, which is 21 STUN, enough to STUN you.  12d6 Mind Control or Mental Illusions (42 on average) will get +20 on your Ego with -1 to the breakout roll.  Note that her powers are Line of Sight, so she can be a substantial distance away with no penalty to hit you.  That is without Esper considering Multiple Attacks, as she can probably hit pretty easily.

 

I could see Green Dragon being quite frustrated as I don't recall him having ranged attacks, so flying out of his reach would force him to hunt for cover.  Of course, if he can move the fight indoors, he would have a better chance.

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6 hours ago, pawsplay said:

1: Why would Joules fly away from guys with guns?

2: Why isn't she using Dodge despite her SPD advantage?

3: Why is she engaged in a stationary shootout with multiple opponents?

4: Why isn't she spreading her attacks?

5: And who are these squads of cops running around with Legendary OCV levels?

Hugh answered most of these pretty well, but here goes again. 

1: What Hugh said, because not flying away didn't work, and because you described her as "using distance and safety to launch powerful attacks". 

2: What Hugh said, and what I said. 

3: What Hugh said.  I have nothing to add.  Thank you Hugh! 

4: Because a SWAT team isn't going to cluster together when fighting an enemy capable of Spreading powerful attacks.  These are "Tough/Experienced" foes, remember! 

5: They've got two CSLs and a +1 from their gun.  Their base OCV is 5, at the bottom end of Competent. 

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I should have checked - CV of 5-7 is "competent", while 8-10 is "legendary" (the same as pre-6e CVs based on DEX).

 

So if they figure they're all dead if they don't take down the Blaster (after all, she seems pretty confident she can mop the floor with them), they can have an 8 OCV, at the cost of being easier targets with 5 DCV - you can't fry us all at once!

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3 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

I should have checked - CV of 5-7 is "competent", while 8-10 is "legendary" (the same as pre-6e CVs based on DEX).

 

So if they figure they're all dead if they don't take down the Blaster (after all, she seems pretty confident she can mop the floor with them), they can have an 8 OCV, at the cost of being easier targets with 5 DCV - you can't fry us all at once!

They don't actually have a choice since they've got 2-point CSLs.  They would probably do even better if they Aborted to Dodge (against low OCV Joules) or Dive for Cover (against high OCV Joules) when shot at, but I got lazy with the mook decision-making. 

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On 2/24/2020 at 1:53 PM, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Hugh answered most of these pretty well, but here goes again. 

1: What Hugh said, because not flying away didn't work, and because you described her as "using distance and safety to launch powerful attacks". 

That doesn't make sense, because guns are also ranged attacks.

On 2/24/2020 at 1:53 PM, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

2: What Hugh said, and what I said. 

I don't actually see an answer.

On 2/24/2020 at 1:53 PM, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

3: What Hugh said.  I have nothing to add.  Thank you Hugh! 

A non-answer. No one has addressed this strange situation.

On 2/24/2020 at 1:53 PM, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

4: Because a SWAT team isn't going to cluster together when fighting an enemy capable of Spreading powerful attacks.  These are "Tough/Experienced" foes, remember! 

And yet Joules is going to stand in a vast, featureless plane and get shot at. How are they even in the same fight as her?

 

On 2/24/2020 at 1:53 PM, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

5: They've got two CSLs and a +1 from their gun.  Their base OCV is 5, at the bottom end of Competent. 

 

Admittedly, I'm not looking at the character sheet, but are you sure this isn't a heroic cop, and not a generic SWAT team member? The Competent Normal at the back of the book has OCV, SPD 3, and does not have two CSLs. Admittedly, a SWAT officer is more combat-focused, but that still seems really elevated to me. But let's go with those values for now.

Here's how I picture the fight. First phase, Joules drops one. Second, third, and fourth, she just Dodges. Fifth phase, she drops another one. If they hold their actions, she just keeps dropping them until they all fire at once. She then Dodges, and then drops one or two more later in the Turn. In their best possible scenario, they just have to hope one or two of them roll really lucky.

So even against seven guys with combat values verging on dangerous to superheroes, armed with weapons and armor they didn't pay points for, I like her odds.

 

Which is not to say she couldn't be built more defensively. It's just that with Combat Luck and decent combat values, I don't get the "omg what are you doing" vibe. And I didn't really envision her as a solo, anyway. She's a strong offense character with Teamwork and some Interaction skills. Unless the opponents know the team really well, what's likely to happen is the Brick and Battlesuit go in first, and once the bad guys are engaged, she just pops out and blasts somebody. She definitely doesn't use her flight to position herself at a range against multiple, alert opponents who also have ranged attacks and are focused on her, because she's not a suicidal idiot.

 

I'm still tinkering with her stats, but giving her 10 points of resistant defenses with no real explanation is not really the direction I'm going. Maybe another dose of Combat Luck is a good idea, although I don't usually see characters built up like that who aren't martial artists.

Or, more realistically, they come walking down the hallway trying to apprehend here. She spreads her attack, and takes out four of them before they even get a chance to act.

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3 hours ago, pawsplay said:

That doesn't make sense, because guns are also ranged attacks.

 

You will find opponents with ranged attacks are pretty common in Champions games.  Again, I am assuming you will be playing in a typical Champions game.

 

3 hours ago, pawsplay said:

I don't actually see an answer.

 

Let's break it down.  If she Dodges, she gets +3 DCV, and that is her attack action for the phase.  She has DCV 9.  If she uses one of her electrical attacks, and assigns her three skill levels to DCV, she has a DCV of 9 and gets to attack at OCV 6, possibly taking down one of the SWAT team.

 

Which do you think is more likely to be a successful tactic:

 

(a)  having 9 DCV and getting an attack; or

(b)  having a 9 DCV and getting no attack?

 

A 6 OCV is not overly high for "agent level" mook opponents in a Hero game.  With a DCV of 9, if all they do is stand still and fire away, they hit on an 8-.  That's about a 25% chance.  You will be taking a hit (possibly more than one) every phase.  You cannot weather those hits.  Your claim that you will "mop the floor" with those SWAT agents is, therefore, exceedingly optimistic.

 

3 hours ago, pawsplay said:

A non-answer. No one has addressed this strange situation.

 

I don't recall you explaining why Joules would be trying to mop the floor with a SWAT team either.  OK, the SWAT team works for a foreign government, and they are guarding your imprisoned teammates who are held in ColdSleep.  You are their only hope before the foreign government drives them away to dissect them and figure out how their powers work.  Their orders are "guard the prisoners", not "chase down anyone who comes across your path", so you can certainly fly away and avoid battling them, if you wish.  However, that is a win for them, not a loss, because they do not care whether you are captured or free, or dead or alive, as long as they fulfill their assignment of delivering the prisoners for dissection.

 

3 hours ago, pawsplay said:

And yet Joules is going to stand in a vast, featureless plane and get shot at. How are they even in the same fight as her?

 

Because we are testing your theory that Joules can mop the floor with a squad of SWAT agents.  If we assume a bunch of options to find cover, then I think we also have to assume the SWAT team is also capable of making effective use of that cover.  In my "guard the prisoners" scenario, it seems likely they would already be entrenched, but we did not place Joules at that added disadvantage.

 

3 hours ago, pawsplay said:

Admittedly, I'm not looking at the character sheet, but are you sure this isn't a heroic cop, and not a generic SWAT team member? The Competent Normal at the back of the book has OCV, SPD 3, and does not have two CSLs. Admittedly, a SWAT officer is more combat-focused, but that still seems really elevated to me. But let's go with those values for now.

 

Gnome provided his source.  The Competent Normal on p 440 of Hero 6e V1 has CVs of 5 and SPD 3, so I think that may be transplanted into whatever source you are using.  He also has a weapon familiarity, a bunch of user-designed skills and 9 points of user-designed skills and talents.  That's more than enough to get the skills that Gnome has incorporated.  +1 OCV is 5 points and 2 +1 OCV levels with pistols is another 4, so there's that 8 OCV.  It is a 100 point build, with no equipment.  The handgun, SWAT armor and truncheon are not likely worth 50 points, all in.  Overall, I would say that these SWAT agents are Competent Normals with their discretionary points allocated to their profession. 

 

They are not likely any more powerful than agents who would be used in a typical Champions game, outnumbering the heroes 5 or 10 to 1 if they had no non-agent support.

 

3 hours ago, pawsplay said:

Here's how I picture the fight. First phase, Joules drops one. Second, third, and fourth, she just Dodges. Fifth phase, she drops another one. If they hold their actions, she just keeps dropping them until they all fire at once. She then Dodges, and then drops one or two more later in the Turn. In their best possible scenario, they just have to hope one or two of them roll really lucky.

 

I will give her the benefit of the doubt that she figures out she can get the same 9 DCV if she fires an electric blast as if she Dodges.  So, Phase 12, she shoots first, OCV 6 vs DCV 5.  Needing 12- to hit is almost 75%, so we'll assume she hits and takes out one member of the well-spaced SWAT team.

 

Since it is Phase 12, all 6 get to shoot back.   They need 10- which is a50% chance, so three should hit.  Cribbing Gnome's first three hits, Joules is now at 15 STUN, 4 BOD.  She recovers 10 STUN.

 

Phase 3, she can fire first.  Let's assume two cops are close enough that she can Spread.  She hits both with her 12- (3 for 3 - OK for 74%) and both are KOd.

 

The remaining four fan out and fire, still on a 10-, so 2 hit (50%).  Cribbing Gnomes' net two rolls, Joules is now at -7 BOD and -3 STUN.  She gets a recovery in Phase 5, so now she has 7 STUN and 7 END.  Joules moves first on Phase 8, stands up and uses all but 1 of her remaining END to blast.  However, she has a 75% chance to hit, and this is her fourth shot, so she misses.  The four cops can either shoot her (two hits will likely kill her since she is already at -7 BOD, and she will for sure be KOd past PS 12).

 

GAME OVER

 

3 hours ago, pawsplay said:

Which is not to say she couldn't be built more defensively. It's just that with Combat Luck and decent combat values, I don't get the "omg what are you doing" vibe. And I didn't really envision her as a solo, anyway. She's a strong offense character with Teamwork and some Interaction skills. Unless the opponents know the team really well, what's likely to happen is the Brick and Battlesuit go in first, and once the bad guys are engaged, she just pops out and blasts somebody. She definitely doesn't use her flight to position herself at a range against multiple, alert opponents who also have ranged attacks and are focused on her, because she's not a suicidal idiot.

 

First off, 12d6 is pretty average offense in a typical Champions game.  I am not sure whether you are playing a typical Champions game.  Again typically, an equal number of villains to heroes are encountered, many villains have ranged attacks and/or are pretty mobile, so you may well pop up and attack, however one of the villains is likely to target you afterwards.

 

Champions does not play like D&D where the fighters block the hallway and no one attacks the spellcasters.  It is not a dungeon crawl where you will virtually always be able to decide who goes in first and who might hold back, unnoticed until they act. 

 

3 hours ago, pawsplay said:

I'm still tinkering with her stats, but giving her 10 points of resistant defenses with no real explanation is not really the direction I'm going. Maybe another dose of Combat Luck is a good idea, although I don't usually see characters built up like that who aren't martial artists.

 

So which characters have you seen that have DCV 6 and less than 10 defenses, with only 3 resistant?  Typical justifications for enhanced defenses would be a force field or a costume with some rDEF.

 

But hey, maybe your game is not Standard Champions Supers and this character will be fine.  Have you asked other players in the game to look over your character?  Have you asked your GM?  Do the Brick and Battlesuit have similar CVs and markedly lower damage?  Would Joules easily hit them?  Would a 12d6 Blast or two take them out?

 

Massey, Gnome and I approach this from our experience, in typical games we have played in.  The game you are building for could be completely different.  But if it is a typical Champions game, I don't think your build will be very successful.

 

Clearly, you disagree.  From your comments, Gnome and I are full of ****, and the character's defenses are fine.  So run the character and let us know how it goes.

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I agree with Hugh, this may be a different set of ground rules and it may work.  But as people who have run and played in Supers type games before, what happens in comics and what happens in the game are VERY different.  Cyclops can sit there and not be hit by all the agents with normal weapons.  Why?  Writers Invulnerability.  In a regular game, Cyclops is road pizza.  Spidey manages to dodge ALL the bullets.  A friend made a PC with the same idea, but gave him a bit of armour.  Yep that one in 10 shot hit, three times in a row.  barely survived.

 

So do not be surprised if at the end of your first session it is you being rushed to the hospital due to major trauma.  If it happens again and again, then you will get frustrated and want to quit.  WE do not want that.  WE are trying to make it so you will have a positive experience.  That is all.

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12d6 is the same DCs as Defender's blast and Ironclad's punch, and higher than Arrowhead's arrows or Witchcraft's witchfire. As far as I can tell, it's as strong as any attack in any of the sample characters in Champions Complete except Shrinker's nasty uppercut. So "First off, 12d6 is pretty average offense in a typical Champions game," does not seem to be accurate, the sample characters imply it's the top end for a standard supers game.

I first played a Champions game in 1990. Go ahead and lecture me how it really is.

 

Here's how the proposed battle against seven super cops actually works:

 

Phase 12: Joules dodges and allocates her CSLs to DCV, and Dodges. Her DCV is now 12. All the cops shoot and miss.

Phase 10: Joules switches to offense, spreads her attack and takes out 2 to 4 SWAT guys.

Phase 8: Joules dodge and allocates her CSLs to defense and Dodges. The SWAT guys all miss.

Phase 5: Joules switches her CSLs to defense, spreads, and takes out two more SWAT guys.

Phase 4: The maybe remaining three SWAT guys shoot, and Joules dodges, and they miss.

 

Phase 12: The remaining opponents briefly reconsider their life choices as Joules chooses her next approach.

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, pawsplay said:

12d6 is the same DCs as Defender's blast and Ironclad's punch, and higher than Arrowhead's arrows or Witchcraft's witchfire. As far as I can tell, it's as strong as any attack in any of the sample characters in Champions Complete except Shrinker's nasty uppercut. So "First off, 12d6 is pretty average offense in a typical Champions game," does not seem to be accurate, the sample characters imply it's the top end for a standard supers game.

Arrowhead has a 12d6 Blast, I'm not sure what you're talking about.  Witchcraft's main attacks are her mental attacks.  In particular, her Irresistible Slumber.  Which, if you'll note, is 12 DCs. 

Every member of the Champions other than Kinetik has a 12 DC attack.  12d6 is a pretty average offense in a typical Champions game according to the Champions. 

 

21 minutes ago, pawsplay said:

I first played a Champions game in 1990. Go ahead and lecture me how it really is.

Your permission is noted. 

 

22 minutes ago, pawsplay said:

Here's how the proposed battle against seven super cops actually works:

 

Phase 12: Joules dodges and allocates her CSLs to DCV, and Dodges. Her DCV is now 12. All the cops shoot and miss.

Phase 10: Joules switches to offense, spreads her attack and takes out 2 to 4 SWAT guys.

Phase 8: Joules dodge and allocates her CSLs to defense and Dodges. The SWAT guys all miss.

Phase 5: Joules switches her CSLs to defense, spreads, and takes out two more SWAT guys.

Phase 4: The maybe remaining three SWAT guys shoot, and Joules dodges, and they miss.

 

Phase 12: The remaining opponents briefly reconsider their life choices as Joules chooses her next approach.

As previously noted, she can't get +3 DCV from those CSLs if she Dodges.  6e1p69, "a character can only allocate a CSL on a Phase when he uses an attack/power that CSL applies to. For example, if a character has a 3-point Combat Skill Level with his Blast, he can only assign that Level (for any purpose) on Phases when he uses his Blast."

You then blindly assume a SWAT team is dumb enough to gather together like bowling pins, just waiting to be dealt with.  If you want cops in your game to have PsyLim: Makes idiotic tactical choices despite training and experience (Common, Total) that's your prerogative but I can't support it. 

And by now we're back at Joules taking down one cop a Phase and getting shot a bunch.  And she loses that fight. 

 

 

But hey, since you're bringing up the Champions, let's quickly run her up against each of the Champions, one at a time! 

Defender has a 12d6 Punch, wins Initiative, and has OCV 11 and DCV 8.  He hits easily, Stunneds Joules, then repeats it on Phase 3 for the KO.  He's also faster moving. 

Ironclad loses initiative, but doesn't really care because he can take four hits.  He has 60 STR which becomes 12d6 thrown objects with OCV 7, so he'll hit twice (and inflict Stunned every time he does) before Joules hits four times.  He's also faster moving. 

Kinetik just shrugs and leaves.  Joules can't do anything to stop him.  We'll call that a win for Joules anyways though, since he can't really hurt her if she stays away from anything he could run up.  He would win if he could force Joules down, though, he gets about as much damage through as she does but he's got better CV and SPD. 

Sapphire has better Initiative, CV, SPD, defense, movement.  It's not really a contest. 

Witchcraft wins Initiative, easily hits with a 6d6 Mental Blast, yadda yadda it's Defender again but the probabilities are a bit less one-sided. 

 

So that's Joules going 1-4 with the Champions.  But hey, what might happen if Joules didn't get Stunned by any incoming 12d6 attack and could take more than one hit? 

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