AID Duration and CP

[iamlibertarian]

Just looking for a general consensus here. 

 

Say I am creating a 'support character' who uses AID 'X' (let's say OCV), and I want to give it Delayed Return. At what point would you, if you were running a game, make a target (self or other) pay CP to keep the power, if at all?

What if a character gave AID 1d6 to OCV and gave it a Delayed Return Rate of 5/day. I am assuming no CP payment by the target. But what if the AID returned at 5/year, or 5/century (barring Dispelling, or being stolen if it is on a focus that has to be given to another,etc.). Is it safe to assume that at some point a GM would charge the target CP for this?

Thanks!

DC

[dmjalund]

How does anyone but the person with the power pay for any part of the power?

[Grailknight]

As a GM, I wouldn't make the target pay character points, I'd forbid buying the power with that type of delay. 

[unclevlad]

Also remember the maximum effect rule.  OCV is 5 CP, so 1d6 only gets you +1 OCV.  And if you want it to last for a week, that's a +2 1/2...so it's 21 points for a measly +1 OCV.  

 

See specifically 6E1 page 142 on Delayed Return Rate, Expanded Effect, and Variable Effect.  They're all given Warning signs.

[dougmacd]

1 hour ago, iamlibertarian said:

Say I am creating a 'support character' who uses AID 'X' (let's say OCV), and I want to give it Delayed Return. At what point would you, if you were running a game, make a target (self or other) pay CP to keep the power, if at all?

 

If used to buff NPCs, I probably wouldn't worry about it too much. Long-lasting Aids become a seed for plot lines where people seek out -- or villains try to force -- the use of said buffs on themselves.

 

If used to buff PCs, I'd expect the grantor to take actions to Aid at least once a play session. If the delay rate was long enough that the buff persisted across sessions, that no longer feels like an Aid.  I'd tell the "grantor" to use Boost instead, or tell the "targets" to buy the "aided" abilities themselves (possibly with a dispellable limitation to reflect that the power needs to be set up by the "grantor").

 

Doug

[iamlibertarian]

10 hours ago, dmjalund said:

How does anyone but the person with the power pay for any part of the power?

 

Depends on what you mean by 'with the power.' In any games I have played (admittedly it has been 4th ED since I found a group, lol) most GMs made the one who Benefits from the power be the one to pay CP for it. My character (grantor) pays for the ability to cast it, and if the receiver benefits from it long term, they pay CP to keep it.

[Tech]

The GM has the right to ask a player who buys an Aid power with a delay of month/year/century/etc? the question: why? Why does the player want the power to last so long?  An answer of "it'd be cool" isn't good enough. What's the point of the long delay, player? Buffing your fellow hero because of impending difficult battle is understandable but not for a week/month/etc. I agree at a certain point, it's no longer a buff, it's a new ability/power/etc that someone's gonna have to buy.

[Hugh Neilson]

On 2/21/2020 at 9:40 AM, unclevlad said:

Also remember the maximum effect rule.  OCV is 5 CP, so 1d6 only gets you +1 OCV.  And if you want it to last for a week, that's a +2 1/2...so it's 21 points for a measly +1 OCV. 

 

For 20 points, I could buy +2 OCV, Usable Simultaneously by 8 recipients.  That's also cautioned in the RAW.

[unclevlad]

48 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

For 20 points, I could buy +2 OCV, Usable Simultaneously by 8 recipients.  That's also cautioned in the RAW.

 

Yeah, one of the weaknesses of the approach Hero System takes is, there's combos that are technically allowed, but shouldn't be.  UBO is a good example.  But they do point these out.

 

One of the issues with super-long duration is, I can kill the cost with massive limitations that won't matter.  Extra time:  1 turn.  Concentration, 0 DCV.  Let's toss in 4 Charges, one for each teammate (say).  They don't have to be bought as Continuing Charges.  Or go for x2 or x3 END, depending on the overall cost.  So how about

 

Aid 4d6+1, Expanded Effect (x2 Characteristics or Powers simultaneously) (+1/2), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Day; +2 1/4) (101 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), -1 1/4), Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1), Only to Aid Others (-1/2)

 

where you improve OCV and DCV.  Use it twice, so max effect rule kicks in...25 points, or +5 OCV *and* DCV.  Cost:  26 character points.  Now, OK, you can't put this into a multipower or VPP, but that's a manageable cost.  And if you prefer...knock it down to 2 1/2 dice.  15 points on the nose, so +3 OCV and DCV.  STILL really nice.  15 points.  Oh, and that's only 56 active points, so it *could* fit into an MP with Healing and perhaps an AVAD HA (vs. Power Def) that would be the big power.  (5d6 HA AVAD vs. Power Def, 1/2 END...56 active.  Sweet!)

[Hugh Neilson]

You seem to have neglected the halving of effect on DCV.  I could similarly limit activating that Extra OCV Usable Simultaneously.

 

I think all of the options suffer from the simple reality that they are really trying to permanently enhance the individual and/or teammates by making the boost available at any time when it would be meaningful.  That's where the GM should be paying attention to those "caution" signs.

[iamlibertarian]

17 hours ago, Tech said:

The GM has the right to ask a player who buys an Aid power with a delay of month/year/century/etc? the question: why? Why does the player want the power to last so long?  An answer of "it'd be cool" isn't good enough. What's the point of the long delay, player? Buffing your fellow hero because of impending difficult battle is understandable but not for a week/month/etc. I agree at a certain point, it's no longer a buff, it's a new ability/power/etc that someone's gonna have to buy.

 

Well, I like to play (or at least create) characters with depth. Forget combat, I created a character with a permanent light source this way. And an "Eco Warrior" who created a 'clean air bubble' around the entire city (a 'toxic -damage' power could be created in the city, but effects wouldn't last long. Lit an entire city's large buildings with Images (0 END, Uncontrolled, Trigger is a central light switch, Penetrative and so on. Another created a permanent clean water source for a village. Weird things like that, lol. Admittedly there are combat benefits too, like a base got Uncontrolled Resistant PD/ED too, which can still be sensed and dispelled.

And then there is the permanently inscribed AID 3d6 magic or summoning circle in the Sanctum Sanctorium.

I like variety. I like Much less characters that are carbon copies of other characters.

[iamlibertarian]

As another example of how I like 'depth' vs copying existing characters, I had a Dark Champions character who sold potions of Healing, or Immortality or Immunity to the rich and influential (his source of Wealthy) and for favors. Almost too dark.

 

Another thinks he is a former major God who was reduced to Demigod status over time as science took over and worship from believers has significantly fallen off. So he trades favors (like the Immortality, or Transform barren person into a fertile one), or permanent regeneration. They (NPCs) had their CP value increased and I had reason to -buy- Favors and Contacts.

[iamlibertarian]

14 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Use it twice, so max effect rule kicks in...25 points, or +5 OCV *and* DCV.  Cost:  26 character points.  Now, OK, you can't put this into a multipower or VPP, but that's a manageable cost.  And if you prefer...knock it down to 2 1/2 dice.  15 points on the nose, so +3 OCV and DCV.  STILL really nice.  15 points.  Oh, and that's only 56 active points, so it *could* fit into an MP with Healing and perhaps an AVAD HA (vs. Power Def) that would be the big power.  (5d6 HA AVAD vs. Power Def, 1/2 END...56 active.  Sweet!)

 

I didn't know that such is too powerful. I just assumed that NPCs had the same, and all is fair. For example, take a look at Gravity Alteration in C.Powers pg  154. 40 STR TK in a 16m radius either pinning everyone down or lifting them in the air where they can't so much as pull a trigger for 52 points (less if one added a few more combat realistic modifiers).

Or at Gravity Cancellation on the same page. For just 37 points, or even less with easy Lims, you in one Turn could lift someone 10 stories and drop them, or just continue to hold them out of combat.

Shoot, a simple 3D6 INT drain, Constant, END 0, (AP 60, RP 30 with a simple OAF) could wipe out half a team in a Turn. IF one does not get smooshed first. Which is why we work in teams. Again, I just thought this was the norm for the game.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

Arms races do not end well.  Either the PCs find something the GM can't deal with, or the GM brings out something the PCs can't deal with.  Generally the latter, given that the GM has as many NPCs as needed with as many points as needed.  I've seen the former though, Cleric in a D&D 3.5 game who knew the intricacies of his class and spell list perfectly and had a good read on the GM.  Either way the game falls apart and lands somewhere from boring to infuriating. 

[iamlibertarian]

8 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Arms races do not end well.  Either the PCs find something the GM can't deal with, or the GM brings out something the PCs can't deal with.  Generally the latter, given that the GM has as many NPCs as needed with as many points as needed.  I've seen the former though, Cleric in a D&D 3.5 game who knew the intricacies of his class and spell list perfectly and had a good read on the GM.  Either way the game falls apart and lands somewhere from boring to infuriating. 

 

What is the best way to avoid that?

[Grailknight]

10 hours ago, iamlibertarian said:

 

What is the best way to avoid that?

 

Tight GM control over PC's and strong GM willpower with NPC's. Don't be afraid to say NO! to any builds you find troubling.

 

The temptation on both sides to write something rules legal but completely unbalanced is always there on both sides.  

 

e.g  Drain SPD 1d6, Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Minute; +1), Damage Over Time, Target's defenses only apply once, Lock out (cannot be applied multiple times) (16 damage increments, damage occurs every Segment, +4 1/2) (65 Active Points)

 

Doesn't look too bad at 1st glance and is only 65 Active Points. Wrong! After it gets through defenses this will take 1 SPD per 3 segments from the target an is fire and forget.

 

 

Finding a balance will come with experience but early on use "How would I feel if my PC was the target of this power?" as a start.

[unclevlad]

9 hours ago, iamlibertarian said:

 

What is the best way to avoid that?

 

Heed the caution signs in the rules is a great start.  Don't try to build stuff like the Constant INT Drain.  Sure you *can* but that doesn't mean you *should*.  Look at ACTIVE points.  That 40 STR TK w/16m radius is 105 active points, at least in 6E.  That's equivalent to a 21 DC attack.  

 

Played a fair bit of 3E.  There was one GM who liked taking what you did and designing against it.  I remember the end of one session where a player we knew, but his first session in this game...built a high-speed, high-Dex flyer.  So that GM unleashed a 5 shot, based on ECV, autofire killing attack.  Dead PC.  He (I still think wilfully) ignored additional cost aspects...like, Autofire Based on ECV 5 shots isn't +1/2, it's + 1 1/2.  He almost certainly misused Charges.  He made it a killing attack when there was no need to do so...for reasons too long to get into, this was supposed to be D&D "magic missiles."  

 

An interesting approach, IMO, is to play, literally, a No Limitations game.  Add 20% to each character's starting points maybe...but no limitations for which you get points back.  You can build Power Armor guy...but the armor's not a Focus.  I've got a build for a tough martial artist, with Extra Limbs and Stretching...only with the extra limbs.  He's got +STR, only with the extra limb, IIRC.  Fine, those are the concept, so the limitations are real...but for this concept they're SFX, not Limitations.

[unclevlad]

Another approach to the "no limitations" is, keep the points at whereever, but give some number of free points for Skills, Perks, and Talents that generally don't have combat use...Survival, Paramedic, Animal Handling, languages, most PS and SS;  low-end Money (1-3 points), Eidetic Memory, Lightsleeper, Bump of Direction;  most Fringe Benefits, and some Contacts.  That keeps the character sheet fully defined, but also allows the player to develop the rounded character without worrying he's losing effectiveness.  

[iamlibertarian]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

An interesting approach, IMO, is to play, literally, a No Limitations game.  

 

That is an interesting thought. It at least gives me perspective. But the GM would have to do the same. Which would force the GM to do a lot of character creation instead of using stock characters to fight against. I played Hero from 1st to 4th ED. At least during those times, GM burnout was a real thing. I never got to play in a game that lasted a full year and that is with them using a lot of stock characters). Which is very sad.

[unclevlad]

Stock characters can be fine...just review them closely.  Ron Edwards also points out, in Champions Now, that villains are not and should not be built in quite the same way.  A notable Focus?  That's something the heroes target.

 

I'll also argue that part of burnout was the constant feeling of being in a battle against the players...having to outmaneuver them.  That's the arms race Gnome was talking about.

[Tech]

14 hours ago, iamlibertarian said:

 

Well, I like to play (or at least create) characters with depth. Forget combat, I created a character with a permanent light source this way. And an "Eco Warrior" who created a 'clean air bubble' around the entire city (a 'toxic -damage' power could be created in the city, but effects wouldn't last long. Lit an entire city's large buildings with Images (0 END, Uncontrolled, Trigger is a central light switch, Penetrative and so on. Another created a permanent clean water source for a village. Weird things like that, lol. Admittedly there are combat benefits too, like a base got Uncontrolled Resistant PD/ED too, which can still be sensed and dispelled.

And then there is the permanently inscribed AID 3d6 magic or summoning circle in the Sanctum Sanctorium.

I like variety. I like Much less characters that are carbon copies of other characters.

 

I agree. I think the examples you gave are very creative. I'm not saying you can't have a power with a loooong delay, just a good reason why the player wants the power. If a power won't be abused, I'm good for almost any power to be created in the campaign I'm part of.

[iamlibertarian]

On 2/25/2020 at 1:17 PM, Tech said:

 

I agree. I think the examples you gave are very creative. I'm not saying you can't have a power with a loooong delay, just a good reason why the player wants the power. If a power won't be abused, I'm good for almost any power to be created in the campaign I'm part of.

 

But, then, I think up other things too, like potions of immortality (Life Support) to trade to NPCs for favors, lol.

[unclevlad]

5 hours ago, iamlibertarian said:

 

But, then, I think up other things too, like potions of immortality (Life Support) to trade to NPCs for favors, lol.

 

That wouldn't bother me...or, if anything, I'd make it a royal PITA to make...if it fit the game.  Longevity is a capability that's got basically zero value mechanically...how many games, regardless of genre or system, run all that long in terms of the game-world calendar?  Conversely, it's a *highly* desirable feature for those with wealth and/or power.  So, ok, fine, maybe you can make it.  Trying to get a favor out of it...THAT might cost, for the Contact.

[iamlibertarian]

9 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

That wouldn't bother me...or, if anything, I'd make it a royal PITA to make...if it fit the game.  Longevity is a capability that's got basically zero value mechanically...how many games, regardless of genre or system, run all that long in terms of the game-world calendar?  Conversely, it's a *highly* desirable feature for those with wealth and/or power.  So, ok, fine, maybe you can make it.  Trying to get a favor out of it...THAT might cost, for the Contact.

 

I like the way you think...plot devices...yeah, not only could players have to play CP to keep those favors, but if they don't want to, a major plot device or twist could come out of such interactions.

[Tech]

10 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

That wouldn't bother me...or, if anything, I'd make it a royal PITA to make...if it fit the game.  Longevity is a capability that's got basically zero value mechanically...how many games, regardless of genre or system, run all that long in terms of the game-world calendar?  Conversely, it's a *highly* desirable feature for those with wealth and/or power.  So, ok, fine, maybe you can make it.  Trying to get a favor out of it...THAT might cost, for the Contact.

 

Longevity has value mechanically in our campaign, especially when you have people with time powers.