hero 6e Lower Maximum Characteristic Values

[Gauntlet]

In Hero 6th Edition does a character get any points for having Characteristic Point Limitations. 

 

For example, a standard human has a STR Max of 20, but if there was a character race that had a STR Max of 15, would that character get any points for it.

[Ninja-Bear]

I’m not sure why he would.  characteristics Maxima has always been confusing. Max 20 doesn’t mean That a human  is limited to  29 but rather if he buys say 25 pt, the 5 over 20 is double in cost. Note, you can make 20 be the human limit if you want but by default human limit is 30.

[Lucius]

The Normal Characteristic Maximum rule, requiring a double expenditure to buy Characteristics above a certain point, is a bad idea and you should abandon it.

 

As for setting limits for certain character types, just set the limits. If you want Hobbits to be restricted to STR 15 or less, just forbid anyone from playing a Hobbit with STR over 15.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And a normal human palindromedary

[Ninja-Bear]

Gauntlet I forgot to mention that is you would set a limit say 8 STR then a character would get points back because it last less than the starting free points. This is the usual rule but as I understand it, there is a Fantasy game where the players are set 8’s in characteristics  as a default. No points are granted for it. 

[Ninja-Bear]

FWIW Gauntlet I’ve never had a problem with using Characteristica Maxima. You don’t need to use it. (Typically it’s used in Heroic level games). Same token though you don’t need to use it either. 

[Duke Bushido]

Ninja Bear is completely right: I have never had a problem with it, either-- at least, not an in-game problem. 

 

I have had a metagame problem with it, though, almost everytime a player wants to take it:

 

It's been my experience that the player wishing to get points for this "handicap" has never had any intention of building this particular character beyond that, anyway.  If he were building a run-of-the-mill high school history teacher for an Attack of the Mutants revival game (don't judge me, dammit!     ), he might decide to take NCM, but then the only stat he increases is INT, and only to twelve.

 

He's getting points for a limitation that doesn't actually limit anything about the character.  😕

 

Granted, perusing this path leads to a long line of infinite regression (I know: I've done it more than once ;), and it's lead me to two thoughts on it:

 

Either make it a universal "everyman limitation" (which is hard to justify when working with multiple player races such as fantasy or sci-fi) or, as Lucius suggests, just abandon it and set caps on a per-race basis.

[Ternaugh]

Most Heroic games that I've seen use Normal Characteristic Maxima at no points as one of the setting switches. Package Deals before 5e had a messy way of tinkering with Characteristic Maxima, but it essentially worked out to a way of pre-buying the double cost (and selling back base Characteristics), and went away in 5e.

[Gauntlet]

Looks like Steve Long in Narosia gives a 5 or 10 point physical complication if your character has reduced maximums. He has races that have characteristic maximums that are even below the starting value (like maximum STR of 2).

[Ninja-Bear]

19 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

Looks like Steve Long in Narosia gives a 5 or 10 point physical complication if your character has reduced maximums. He has races that have characteristic maximums that are even below the starting value (like maximum STR of 2).

I (and could be wrong) don’t think Steve Long wrote Narosia. Could you post a specific complication? I figure that they are physical complications.

[Ninja-Bear]

Oh and Gauntlet my mistake. I assumed you meant char maxima not complication. 

[Duke Bushido]

1 minute ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Oh and Gauntlet my mistake. I assumed you meant char maxima not complication. 

 

 

You're in good company, Sir.     From the looks of the replies, I think we _all_ did!   

 

[Ninja-Bear]

Also if I’m not mistaken, Narosia also tweaked the Hero system to their vision of the game. Nothing wrong with that of course. So I wonder if in Narosia maxima might be the maximum. I would should suggest perhaps looking at their rules. It might give more insight.

[Gauntlet]

Sorry, I am wrong, written by Shane Harsch. And as I said above, they are 5 or 10 point physical complications.

 

Physical Complication (Infrequently; Barely Impairing); 5 Complication Points.

 

or

 

Physical Complication (Infrequently; Slightly Impairing); 10 Complication Points.

 

One of the race types has a Maximum Characteristic value change of -66 points.

[Ninja-Bear]

1 hour ago, Gauntlet said:

Sorry, I am wrong, written by Shane Harsch. And as I said above, they are 5 or 10 point physical complications.

 

Physical Complication (Infrequently; Barely Impairing); 5 Complication Points.

 

or

 

Physical Complication (Infrequently; Slightly Impairing); 10 Complication Points.

 

One of the race types has a Maximum Characteristic value change of -66 points.

Ok those physical complications have nothing to do character value. This complications you listed are generic. If you would take one, there would be a reason why you aren’t a “normal” person (human). Consider if you are a hobbit and only a 1m tall in a 2m tall human world then you’d probably take the 10 pt complication whereas if you adventured more in the Seaver’s lands it would probably worth less. Typically dwarves aren’t much taller than hobbits. Next could be weight/mass. Hobbits are portrayed to be light so in game they may take Knick back or down easier than the dwarf so you could take physical complication light. Note you can have more than on complication at a time. Perhaps you are human -a one armed swordsman, he could take the physical complication barely because in combat it may not be that much hindering to him. As to the -66 points, remember anytime you sell back characteristics below starting value you do gain points back so if you only have 10m running then you 2 pats back. Note in 6th you can sell off your senses too for points.

[Gauntlet]

14 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Ok those physical complications have nothing to do character value. This complications you listed are generic. If you would take one, there would be a reason why you aren’t a “normal” person (human). Consider if you are a hobbit and only a 1m tall in a 2m tall human world then you’d probably take the 10 pt complication whereas if you adventured more in the Seaver’s lands it would probably worth less. Typically dwarves aren’t much taller than hobbits. Next could be weight/mass. Hobbits are portrayed to be light so in game they may take Knick back or down easier than the dwarf so you could take physical complication light. Note you can have more than on complication at a time. Perhaps you are human -a one armed swordsman, he could take the physical complication barely because in combat it may not be that much hindering to him. As to the -66 points, remember anytime you sell back characteristics below starting value you do gain points back so if you only have 10m running then you 2 pats back. Note in 6th you can sell off your senses too for points.

Actually they do. They are what is given to the character for having the characteristic maximums. The actual post is like follows:

 

Reduced Characteristic Maxima: STR 7, CON 15, PD
4, ED 4, REC 8, END 30, BODY 8, STUN 30, Running 12m,
Swimming 2m; Physical Complication (Infrequently; Slightly
Impairing); 10 Complication Points.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

My POV: How do the characteristic caps hinder the character compared to a character with the same statline but no caps?  If the answer is "They don't", they're not worth anything. 

[Gauntlet]

9 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

My POV: How do the characteristic caps hinder the character compared to a character with the same statline but no caps?  If the answer is "They don't", they're not worth anything. 

 

So you would be okay if I said your stat maximums were as follows while everyone else's was normal?

 

STR Max: 5

STR Max: 5
DEX Max: 5
CON Max: 5
INT Max: 5
EGO Max: 5
PRE Max: 5

OCV Max: 2

DCV Max: 2

OMCV Max: 2

DMCV Max: 2

SPEED Max: 2

PD Max: 2

ED Max: 2

REC Max: 2

END Max: 5

BODY Max: 5

STUN Max: 5

Any characteristic bought over these maximums are at double cost.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

2 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

So you would be okay if I said your stat maximums were as follows while everyone else's was normal?

That's an absurd strawman. 

[Gauntlet]

3 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

That's an absurd strawman. 

 

So you would find that as a problem. So you should get something for having a character that has low characteristic maximums.

 

[Ninja-Bear]

28 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

Actually they do. They are what is given to the character for having the characteristic maximums. The actual post is like follows:

 

Reduced Characteristic Maxima: STR 7, CON 15, PD
4, ED 4, REC 8, END 30, BODY 8, STUN 30, Running 12m,
Swimming 2m; Physical Complication (Infrequently; Slightly
Impairing); 10 Complication Points.

Ok then. I would think that the reduced maxima would be explained more in-depth in the rules. Notice though that the swimming is reduced. A starting character has 4m of swimming. Without the book I would think the physical complication is only referring to the reduced swimming but again I could be wrong.

[Ninja-Bear]

Gauntlet for clarification can you buy more characteristics passed the the maxima as in the core rules? So you can have 10 STR with 7 STR maxima as you posted? 

[Gauntlet]

Yes, you can buy them up over the maximum but it would cost you double. So if you had a maximum of 7 and wanted to have 10 in STR then it would cost you 3 points. If you then wanted to go even further, it would cost you 2 points per point of STR.

[Ninja-Bear]

1 minute ago, Gauntlet said:

Yes, you can buy them up over the maximum but it would cost you double. So if you had a maximum of 7 and wanted to have 10 in STR then it would cost you 3 points. If you then wanted to go even further, it would cost you 2 points per point of STR.

Ok -just what I was thinking. 

[Ninja-Bear]

Gauntlet I can see if they are listing Physical complication on the reduced characteristics maxima as a whole. Is an inconvenience to the player to pay more points to even get into lower typical character ranges. Btw someone else recently posted a question about Narosia with that specific tag and the writers legendsmiths did respond. That would be the best bet. I’m just speculating here on this thread-hopefully I’m being helpful.

[Cassandra]

20 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

In Hero 6th Edition does a character get any points for having Characteristic Point Limitations. 

 

For example, a standard human has a STR Max of 20, but if there was a character race that had a STR Max of 15, would that character get any points for it.

 

The Normal Characteristics Maxima Disadantage should be limited to Superhero Level characters, 200 Points and up, since they actually have the points to far exceed those levels and other characters who don't take it would have a major advantage.