Ninja-Bear Posted February 27, 2020 Report Share Posted February 27, 2020 1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said: Let's look at what the limitation itself represents: a restriction on how high the characters stats can go. Yet if the player has no intention of exceeding that limitation to begin with, or only exceeding it "tactically," that is: gaining points for not being able to buy characteristics as high as he would allegedly like them, it rolls over to being extra points he spends to get exactly the characteristics he wants. All he has to do is claim he wanted them higher. Yeah and that’s not a problem with the player as I see it but the GM. He’s still within the NCM range so to me not a problem but you start building weird things to totally bypass NCM like Hugh did well yeah then veto it. That is why we have a GM right? NCM like any other tool if used as intended works fine. Should keep an eye out for shenanigans? Of course . We already know how big the rules can get if we try to account for every corner case and *gasp* someone gets a point more efficient than another. If we cut out every rule or power that could be abuse though how thin would the rules be? Probably thinner than your Second edition. Now as to perspective though I think there is a disconnect from me to you about disadvantages. You seem (and correct me cause I know you will 😜) to go by Player gets X Base points and he then may choose Y Disadvantages for a total not exceeding Z points. I.e. 100 Base + up-to a max of 150 Disadvantages = 250 pts no? When I started to play in 4th although this was the rule, it was presented to me as 250 pt character. You get 100 pt free and you must take 150 pt in Disadvantages. See the difference? That’s why NCM comes out in the wash. Plus even though I like Disadvantages, I always scrounged points so taking NCM to get 20 pts is good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Bushido Posted February 27, 2020 Report Share Posted February 27, 2020 You are quite right. When I found out that there are people who feel compelled to max out on Disads and spend every single point, it blew my mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted February 27, 2020 Report Share Posted February 27, 2020 3 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said: You do understand that even if a build is legal if it violates the sprint of the rules it’s still wrong? Let’s be honest this isn’t a real build in a real game. It’s a theoretical “character” designed specifically to thwart a rule. You mean like one who takes Disadvantage/Complication points for doubling the cost of something they are not going to buy anyway? Since I do not use NCM as a disadvantage, it becomes very hard to abuse. In Fantasy games, though, that Belt of Strength or Aid DEX spell can easily push characters past 20, and NCM does not apply. The NCM rule is "limited characteristics ain't subject to NCM cuz on accounta they'se powers, not characteristics". Given the rules say "NCM does not apply if the characteristics are limited", the spirit of the rule can also be interpreted to be "if you want high characteristics, they should have limitations". I know where I have seen them! Powered Armor characters who have NCM and boost their stats with their powered armor! I am sure at least one Defender version has that. If we toss in a bunch of races with differing NCM rules, I am guessing the ones with lower physical NCMs will not show up as fighters very often. Just like d20 players comb the sourcebooks for just the right race to pair with this one class following that specific feat chain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted February 27, 2020 Report Share Posted February 27, 2020 Btw Duke are you going to eliminate figured characteristics since you know high strength feeds points back into PD and StUN and REC for free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted February 27, 2020 Report Share Posted February 27, 2020 Sorry Gnome Body (!) my last post came off really snarky. Didn’t mean it like that. My apologies! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Bushido Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 5 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said: Btw Duke are you going to eliminate figured characteristics since you know high strength feeds points back into PD and StUN and REC for free. 4 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said: Sorry Gnome Body (!) my last post came off really snarky. So did the one above. How do you feel about the removal of package deals? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Ruggels Posted March 1, 2020 Report Share Posted March 1, 2020 Mqan I miss Package Deals. made building characters so easy.... Tywyll and ScottishFox 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Bushido Posted March 1, 2020 Report Share Posted March 1, 2020 5 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said: Mqan I miss Package Deals. made building characters so easy.... I miss a good deal of things about them; there are places where they could get a little wiggy in some edge cases, but yeah; they were very handy. What's sort of amusing to me is that they really haven't gone away: when we build our worlds and races, we tend to note typical racial abilities and characteristics ranges for the various peoples within, and various cultural knowledge, etc, and recommend (or often require) that a player selelcint Race X "pick 2 from column A and three from column B," as these are representative of his race or culture or occupation.... We just stopped prebundling them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndianaJoe3 Posted March 1, 2020 Report Share Posted March 1, 2020 Package Deals have been renamed, "Templates." There are no longer bonuses for taking them, but they are otherwise identical. Hugh Neilson 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted March 1, 2020 Report Share Posted March 1, 2020 Now, when I look at those templates, and I look at the 3e D&D books that provided quick builds for characters (i.e. "just pick 2 skills, +1 per INT bonus, and max out skill points there; here's a starting feat, and a second if you are human; here's some gear...; elves have these abilities), I thought "how I hate being shoehorned into specific character builds". So let's play Hero, where I can build any character I can imagine. Then I looked at the rules and - can you believe it - they don't give me a template for an elf, and a template for a fighter. Now how am I supposed to build my character? Amorkca and drunkonduty 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottishFox Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 Every player I've showed 4th edition FH to wants the package deals back in the game. Scott Ruggels, Tywyll, Chris Goodwin and 1 other 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted March 3, 2020 Report Share Posted March 3, 2020 To me, the template works fine. I don't need a few points of bribe to build a coherent character. I also found "give them a point for every x points of lower-utility ability in there". If those abilities are overpriced, reduce their cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Ruggels Posted March 3, 2020 Report Share Posted March 3, 2020 On 3/1/2020 at 7:27 AM, IndianaJoe3 said: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Ruggels Posted March 3, 2020 Report Share Posted March 3, 2020 Sorry Hugh, but one of the few things that get me to actually do math are bargains. This also simplified things as you just have to add and subtract the costs, and make sure they met the requirements. Very little of those incomprehensible fractions. Buy a Race, a Profession, a couple of flavor skills, and equipment being paid for in cash... Boom! Near Instant Fantasy Hero Character, or modern Merc, ect. I stopped playing Champions mostly for two reason. There were others, but the main two we’re the insufferable Comics Code mindset of most Champions GMs, and the calculations for limitations and advantages. The loss of the bargains just made the character sheet more of a slog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted March 3, 2020 Report Share Posted March 3, 2020 16 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said: Sorry Hugh, but one of the few things that get me to actually do math are bargains. I don't see how this links to the rest of your discussion. Whether the template costs the full price of its components or is reduced by 2 or 3 points has no impact on its ability to 16 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said: simplified things as you just have to add and subtract the costs, and make sure they met the requirements. Very little of those incomprehensible fractions. Buy a Race, a Profession, a couple of flavor skills, and equipment being paid for in cash... Boom! Near Instant Fantasy Hero Character, or modern Merc, ect. With or without that discount, you don't have to work with 16 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said: the calculations for limitations and advantages. Of course, NCM is also a calculation of a +1 advantage on the cost of characteristics over the NCM. In any case, I do not see how 16 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said: The loss of the bargains Makes 16 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said: the character sheet more of a slog. I do see how having templates makes it a lot easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Ruggels Posted March 4, 2020 Report Share Posted March 4, 2020 4 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said: I don't see how this links to the rest of your discussion. Whether the template costs the full price of its components or is reduced by 2 or 3 points has no impact on its ability to With or without that discount, you don't have to work with Of course, NCM is also a calculation of a +1 advantage on the cost of characteristics over the NCM. In any case, I do not see how Makes I do see how having templates makes it a lot easier. You missed the main point that in 4e, the Package deals were bargains. You got cost reductions from them. Templates are pretty much the same, EXCEPT that they do not have reduced costs for picking them up. You do not get a raft of useful and less than useful skills for a bargain. 5e and 6e no longer have discounts or bargains that GMs such as Myself used to entice players into custom package deals with bargains on skills and stat mods. That's my main gripe about the difference between Templates and Package Deals. It's the move for exacting, tax style accounting that has me basically cold on 6e. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Bushido Posted March 4, 2020 Report Share Posted March 4, 2020 Sorry folksm Wrong thread. Scott Ruggels 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Ruggels Posted March 4, 2020 Report Share Posted March 4, 2020 Here's a package example from old FH game: The other item was that package Disads were always full price. That was the point of packages versus templates. ScottishFox and Tywyll 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted March 4, 2020 Report Share Posted March 4, 2020 11 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said: You missed the main point that in 4e, the Package deals were bargains. You got cost reductions from them. Templates are pretty much the same, EXCEPT that they do not have reduced costs for picking them up. You do not get a raft of useful and less than useful skills for a bargain. 5e and 6e no longer have discounts or bargains that GMs such as Myself used to entice players into custom package deals with bargains on skills and stat mods. That's my main gripe about the difference between Templates and Package Deals. It's the move for exacting, tax style accounting that has me basically cold on 6e. It seemed from your comments that the main point was not wanting to clutter up the sheet with detailed builds and minor items. To me, if a skill is not worth its 3 point cost, then it should not cost 3 points. It should not get a discount if purchased in combination with some other abilities, but not if purchased with other abilities. Calculating the package deal bonus is, to me at least, an added step in the accounting for costs, not a reduction in the accounting requirement. It's effectively applying a fractional limitation to many of the abilities combined in the template/package. For me (and your view clearly differs) the real value of these templates/packages/whatever is the ease for the player of making "an elven street urchin archer", not shaving off a few points to get the most desired abilities for the lowest cost (an approach which, ironically, Steve Long often refers to as "it's a game, not a tax return"). Chris Goodwin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottishFox Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 21 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said: Here's a package example from old FH game: The other item was that package Disads were always full price. That was the point of packages versus templates. That takes me right down nostalgia lane. I work in tech so I'm reasonably savvy for an antediluvian, but I do miss the older editions. Also makes me wish I had volunteered to edit things. The number of typos is impressive. Tywyll 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Ruggels Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 Just now, ScottishFox said: That takes me right down nostalgia lane. I work in tech so I'm reasonably savvy for an antediluvian, but I do miss the older editions. Also makes me wish I had volunteered to edit things. The number of typos is impressive. Oh I am known for apocalyptic amounts of typos. so I am somewhat dependent upon the little red underlines in Windows systems, These old things were done on a Macintosh Plus, which at the time did not have any sort of spell checker and I type recklessly fast. ScottishFox 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 I look at this and think “2 points off for having those minimum stats? Why not make +2 STR, +1 DEX, +3 EGO and +3 PRE part of the package? Seems to me that having higher stats is beneficial, not detrimental. If we think KS: Soldier 11- is worthless (so we have to offset it with a 2 point Package Bonus), why does KS: Soldier cost points at all? I remain sold on “Get what you pay for and pay for what you get” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.