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Lower Maximum Characteristic Values

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1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

Let's look at what the limitation itself represents:  a restriction on how high the characters stats can go.  Yet if the player has no intention of exceeding that limitation to begin with, or only exceeding it "tactically," that is: gaining points for not being able to buy characteristics as high as he would allegedly like them, it rolls over to being extra points he spends to get exactly the characteristics he wants.  All he has to do is claim he wanted them higher. 

Yeah and that’s not a problem with the player as I see it but the GM. He’s still within the NCM range so to me not a problem but you start building weird things to totally bypass NCM like Hugh did well yeah then veto it. That is why we have a GM right?  NCM like any other tool if used as intended works fine.  Should keep an eye out for shenanigans? Of course .

 

 We already know how big the rules can get if we try to account for every corner case and *gasp* someone gets a point more efficient than another.  If we cut out every rule or power that could be abuse though how thin would the rules be? Probably thinner than your Second edition.

 

Now as to perspective though I think there is a disconnect from me to you about disadvantages. You seem (and correct me cause I know you will 😜) to go by Player gets X Base points and he then may choose Y Disadvantages  for a total not exceeding Z points. I.e. 100 Base + up-to a max of 150 Disadvantages = 250 pts no?

 

When I started to play in 4th although this was the rule, it was presented to me as 250  pt character. You get 100 pt free and you must take 150 pt in Disadvantages. See the difference? That’s why NCM comes out in the wash. Plus even though I like Disadvantages, I always scrounged points so taking NCM to get 20 pts is good. 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

You do understand that even if a build is legal if it violates the sprint of the rules it’s still wrong? Let’s be honest this isn’t a real build in a real game. It’s a theoretical “character” designed specifically to thwart a rule. 

 

You mean like one who takes Disadvantage/Complication points for doubling the cost of something they are not going to buy anyway?

 

Since I do not use NCM as a disadvantage, it becomes very hard to abuse. 

 

In Fantasy games, though, that Belt of Strength or Aid DEX spell can easily push characters past 20, and NCM does not apply.  The NCM rule is "limited characteristics ain't subject to NCM cuz on accounta they'se powers, not characteristics".  Given the rules say "NCM does not apply if the characteristics are limited", the spirit of the rule can also be interpreted to be "if you want high characteristics, they should have limitations".

 

I know where I have seen them!  Powered Armor characters who have NCM and boost their stats with their powered armor!  I am sure at least one Defender version has that.

 

If we toss in a bunch of races with differing NCM rules, I am guessing the ones with lower physical NCMs will not show up as fighters very often.  Just like d20 players comb the sourcebooks for just the right race to pair with this one class following that specific feat chain.

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5 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Btw Duke are you going to eliminate  figured characteristics since you know high strength feeds points back into PD and StUN  and REC for free.

 

4 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Sorry Gnome Body (!)  my last post came off really snarky.

 

 

So did the one above. 

 

How do you feel about the removal of package deals? 

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5 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

Mqan I miss Package Deals.  made building characters so easy....

 

I miss a good deal of things about them; there are places where they could get a little wiggy in some edge cases, but yeah; they were very handy. 

 

What's sort of amusing to me is that they really haven't gone away: when we build our worlds and races, we tend to note typical racial abilities and characteristics ranges for the various peoples within, and various cultural knowledge, etc, and recommend (or often require) that a player selelcint Race X "pick 2 from column A and three from column B," as these are representative of his race or culture or occupation.... 

We just stopped prebundling them. 

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Now, when I look at those templates, and I look at the 3e D&D books that provided quick  builds for characters (i.e. "just pick 2 skills, +1 per INT bonus, and max out skill points there; here's a starting feat, and a second if you are human; here's some gear...; elves have these abilities), I thought "how I hate being shoehorned into specific character builds".

 

So let's play Hero, where I can build any character I can imagine.

 

Then I looked at the rules and - can you believe it - they don't give me a template for an elf, and a template for a fighter.  Now how am I supposed to build my character?

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To me, the template works fine.  I don't need a few points of bribe to build a coherent character.

 

I also found "give them a point for every x points of lower-utility ability in there".  If those abilities are overpriced, reduce their cost.

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Sorry Hugh, but one of the few things that get me to actually do math are bargains. This also simplified things as you just have to add and subtract the costs, and make sure they met the requirements. Very little of those incomprehensible fractions. Buy a Race, a Profession, a couple of flavor skills, and equipment being paid for in cash... Boom! Near Instant Fantasy Hero Character, or modern Merc, ect. 
 

I stopped playing Champions mostly for two reason. There were others, but the main two we’re the insufferable Comics Code mindset of most Champions GMs, and the calculations for limitations and advantages.  
 

The loss of the bargains just made the character sheet more of a slog. 

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16 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

Sorry Hugh, but one of the few things that get me to actually do math are bargains.

 

 I don't see how this links to the rest of your discussion.  Whether the template costs the full price of its components or is reduced by 2 or 3 points has no impact on its ability to

 

16 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

simplified things as you just have to add and subtract the costs, and make sure they met the requirements. Very little of those incomprehensible fractions. Buy a Race, a Profession, a couple of flavor skills, and equipment being paid for in cash... Boom! Near Instant Fantasy Hero Character, or modern Merc, ect.

 

With or without that discount, you don't have to work with

 

16 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

the calculations for limitations and advantages. 

 

Of course, NCM is also a calculation of a +1 advantage on the cost of characteristics over the NCM.

 

In any case, I do not see how

 

16 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

The loss of the bargains

 

Makes

 

16 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

 the character sheet more of a slog. 

 

I  do see how having templates makes it a lot easier.

 

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4 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

 I don't see how this links to the rest of your discussion.  Whether the template costs the full price of its components or is reduced by 2 or 3 points has no impact on its ability to

 

 

With or without that discount, you don't have to work with

 

 

Of course, NCM is also a calculation of a +1 advantage on the cost of characteristics over the NCM.

 

In any case, I do not see how

 

 

Makes

 

 

I  do see how having templates makes it a lot easier.

 

 You missed the main point that in 4e, the Package deals were bargains. You got cost reductions from them. 

Templates are pretty much the same, EXCEPT that they do not have reduced costs for picking them up.  You do not get a raft of useful and less than useful skills for a bargain. 5e and 6e no longer have discounts or bargains that GMs such as Myself used to entice players into custom package deals with bargains on skills and stat mods. That's my main gripe about the difference between Templates and Package Deals.  It's the move for exacting, tax style accounting that has me basically cold on 6e.

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11 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

 You missed the main point that in 4e, the Package deals were bargains. You got cost reductions from them. 

Templates are pretty much the same, EXCEPT that they do not have reduced costs for picking them up.  You do not get a raft of useful and less than useful skills for a bargain. 5e and 6e no longer have discounts or bargains that GMs such as Myself used to entice players into custom package deals with bargains on skills and stat mods. That's my main gripe about the difference between Templates and Package Deals.  It's the move for exacting, tax style accounting that has me basically cold on 6e.

 

It seemed from your comments that the main point was not wanting to clutter up the sheet with detailed builds and minor items.

 

To me, if a skill is not worth its 3 point cost, then it should not cost 3 points.

 

It should not get a discount if purchased in combination with some other abilities, but not if purchased with other abilities.

 

Calculating the package deal bonus is, to me at least, an added step in the accounting for costs, not a reduction in the accounting requirement.  It's effectively applying a fractional limitation to many of the abilities combined in the template/package.  For me (and your view clearly differs) the real value of these templates/packages/whatever is the ease for the player of making "an elven street urchin archer", not shaving off a few points to get the most desired abilities for the lowest cost (an approach which, ironically, Steve Long often refers to as "it's a game, not a tax return").

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21 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

Here's a package example from old FH game:

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The other item was that package Disads were always full price.  That was the point of packages versus templates.

 

That takes me right down nostalgia lane.  I work in tech so I'm reasonably savvy for an antediluvian, but I do miss the older editions.

 

Also makes me wish I had volunteered to edit things.  The number of typos is impressive.

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Just now, ScottishFox said:

 

That takes me right down nostalgia lane.  I work in tech so I'm reasonably savvy for an antediluvian, but I do miss the older editions.

 

Also makes me wish I had volunteered to edit things.  The number of typos is impressive.

Oh I am known for apocalyptic amounts of typos. so I am somewhat dependent upon the little red underlines in Windows systems, These old things were done on a Macintosh Plus, which at the time did not have any sort of spell checker and I type recklessly fast.

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I look at this and think “2 points off for having those minimum stats?  Why  not make +2 STR, +1 DEX, +3 EGO and +3 PRE part of the package?  Seems to me that having higher stats is beneficial, not detrimental.

 

If we think KS: Soldier 11- is worthless (so we have to offset it with a 2 point Package Bonus), why does KS: Soldier cost points at all?

 

I remain sold on “Get what you pay for and pay for what you get”

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