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FH Characters More Powerful then Superheroes

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10 minutes ago, Tjack said:

   What I was referring to was that the high mortality rate for PC’s that D&D is known for tends to make players more conscious of keeping a loved character alive. So points will tend to go into defense and attack slots before the more character rounding but ultimately useless types of skills. 
    Superhero games generally aren’t that lethal, so putting points into more character rounding things is an easier call.

    When you have a house in a bad neighborhood you’ll tend to spend more money on insurance and alarms than on painting the garage.

I imagine another part of it is that D&D is well known for a constant increase in character combat ability.  So in a "D&D"ish game people are more likely to spend experience on combat. 

 

10 minutes ago, Tjack said:

    P.S.  I never quoted myself before in a post, has anyone else done it?

Occasionally, mainly when I want to direct attention to something I already posted and the fact that I already posted it. 

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When I ran my former D&D table through a Pathfinder campaign using Fantasy HERO for the rules they ended up more powerful than most supers campaigns I had played in during the 80s/90s.

350+ CP and a Pathfinder load of magic items on top of that.

 

They were probably in the range of 500 point characters by the end.  They lacked the high defenses of the supers crowd, but their OCV and DCV were higher and their damage output was just as good.

 

 

 

Arden's Character Sheet.pdf Keira Everlund's Character Sheet.pdf

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Hero's The Atlantean Age was written to be just this kind of fantasy setting. In that world PCs can be literal demigods; can wield the power to reshape the landscape of a region, to crush armies of normal people by themselves. Applying the Hero System rule variations that are built into the setting, as well the standards for Champions campaigns to super characters, the top tier of Atlantean Age NPCs could go toe-to-toe with some of Champions Earth's toughest superhumans.

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My favored style of FH play is "low heroic" (see the link in my signature below for details), primarily Skill-based characters, with pointwise-free equipment, and Powers outside of that generally limited to being used to replicate magic.  In that style of play, characters don't get more powerful than superheroes.  

 

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I think they tend to be in some ways more lethal and more versatile. The environment is very different, so high level fighters are going to be wearing armor and making called shots, which is just going to kill softer targets, and wizards aren't necessarily as tightly thematic as, say, a mutant with fire powers. But whereas fantasy characters might pause at wading into a nest of ogres, there are superheroic characters who are built in such a way they could do that easily.

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On 2/24/2020 at 12:23 PM, Chris Goodwin said:

My favored style of FH play is "low heroic" (see the link in my signature below for details), primarily Skill-based characters, with pointwise-free equipment, and Powers outside of that generally limited to being used to replicate magic.  In that style of play, characters don't get more powerful than superheroes.  

 

 

I agree. I tend to run "gritty" fantasy games for the most part, with the notable exception of a Planescape game set in Sigil where the characters hopped through gates to various worlds and magic was epic level.

 

In all of my FH games, I've required players to avoid creating new characters as "stat monsters" and encouraged them to try to balance skills and stat costs. I also rarely allow players to spend points to increase physical stats after their initial build. It would require some in-game explanation as to why the stat would be changing. 

 

I also set limits to maximum OCV and DCV values of 10. I encourage everyone to use skills like martial arts maneuvers to increase damage. Likewise, I limit maximum killing damage attacks, maximum resistant armor values, etc.

 

Together, these things have worked very well in my games to keep a good balance, despite giving out plenty of experience that primarily goes to increasing skills, and or developing new spells for casters. 

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I have campaign limits on the most critical combat characteristics and skills.  Also magic items are rare and tend to be pretty pragmatic (a shield with a light spell on it that works like a search light).  The players spend their points on things like skills, perks, and broadening the combat skills (where allowed).  A knightly character should have +4 w/ HtoH combat but they can't afford that at the beginning so maybe they have +1 HtoH and +3 with blades.  The likelihood of hitting doesn't change but the variety of weapons does.  Or buy an appropriate martial art with their weapons.

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gritty is one thing, but if a player has a good idea for som,e sort of a stat god , I may allow it. XD>

But then with that old style 4th edition multiform I got prtetty gros, myself

Dragon Form of the above character.
TGOJuj2.png

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On 2/24/2020 at 2:32 PM, ScottishFox said:

When I ran my former D&D table through a Pathfinder campaign using Fantasy HERO for the rules they ended up more powerful than most supers campaigns I had played in during the 80s/90s.

350+ CP and a Pathfinder load of magic items on top of that.

 

They were probably in the range of 500 point characters by the end.  They lacked the high defenses of the supers crowd, but their OCV and DCV were higher and their damage output was just as good.

 

 

 

Arden's Character Sheet.pdf 302.84 kB · 5 downloads Keira Everlund's Character Sheet.pdf 301.58 kB · 1 download

 

What export are you using for those sheets?

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8 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

What export are you using for those sheets?

 

I'm using a variation of Tasha's Ultimate that I hand edited to take care of something.  It's an evolving work that I'm basing on player feedback.

 

My current version removes STAT base and cost columns and only shows current value.  I'm trying to trim the sheet down to minimum required to play to stop the numbers overload my math-adverse table suffers from.

 

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2 minutes ago, ScottishFox said:

 

I'm using a variation of Tasha's Ultimate that I hand edited to take care of something.  It's an evolving work that I'm basing on player feedback.

 

My current version removes STAT base and cost columns and only shows current value.  I'm trying to trim the sheet down to minimum required to play to stop the numbers overload my math-adverse table suffers from.

 

 

If you ever get happy with it, I'd love a copy. It looks great!

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On 2/24/2020 at 6:00 PM, Lord Liaden said:

Hero's The Atlantean Age was written to be just this kind of fantasy setting. In that world PCs can be literal demigods; can wield the power to reshape the landscape of a region, to crush armies of normal people by themselves. Applying the Hero System rule variations that are built into the setting, as well the standards for Champions campaigns to super characters, the top tier of Atlantean Age NPCs could go toe-to-toe with some of Champions Earth's toughest superhumans.

Only downside is they are really glass cannons since only the highest level of magic provides any kind of defensive magic (barring defending versus their own element). Everyone has to run around in super plate mail or something or else die to the first blast spell they get hit with!

 

At least that's how it reads to me.

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On 2/24/2020 at 6:32 AM, ScottishFox said:

When I ran my former D&D table through a Pathfinder campaign using Fantasy HERO for the rules they ended up more powerful than most supers campaigns I had played in during the 80s/90s.

350+ CP and a Pathfinder load of magic items on top of that.

 

They were probably in the range of 500 point characters by the end.  They lacked the high defenses of the supers crowd, but their OCV and DCV were higher and their damage output was just as good.

 

 

 

Arden's Character Sheet.pdf 302.84 kB · 8 downloads Keira Everlund's Character Sheet.pdf 301.58 kB · 2 downloads

Nice witcher write-up.

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For me, I always thought D&D characters were superheroes, especially at the higher levels.  When we started playing with ODD, a first level PC was a hardened veteran and could easily take on city guard and plain old warriors.  I never understood how the 1st level somehow became a bumbling novice.  But after a couple levels they are supers.  It is just they operate according to different rules of conduct and killing an enemy is OK.

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10 hours ago, Tywyll said:

Only downside is they are really glass cannons since only the highest level of magic provides any kind of defensive magic (barring defending versus their own element). Everyone has to run around in super plate mail or something or else die to the first blast spell they get hit with!

 

At least that's how it reads to me.

 

Among the pre-written spells that's true of those related to some elements. But Shield of the Winds, Stonewall, and Shield of Arcane all provide broader defense. Also, the equivalent of "super plate mail" does exist in the setting. Among NPCs, Atlan Vondarien and his would-be rival, Cormar the Mighty, are decked out with multi-layered armor and defensive spells. While Sharna-Gorak the Destroyer is a true major-league superhuman.

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6 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

Among the pre-written spells that's true of those related to some elements. But Shield of the Winds, Stonewall, and Shield of Arcane all provide broader defense. Also, the equivalent of "super plate mail" does exist in the setting. Among NPCs, Atlan Vondarien and his would-be rival, Cormar the Mighty, are decked out with multi-layered armor and defensive spells. While Sharna-Gorak the Destroyer is a true major-league superhuman.

 

Oh, I know its in there (though the way suits of armor are build in expecting you to buy the parts seperately instead of simply buying Armor without an activation roll limitation is...odd and stupidly overpriced). I just wish that it was more possible to build a character who can be resiliant without relying on armor. Its such a weird restriction to the magic system in my opinion. 

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7 hours ago, Spence said:

For me, I always thought D&D characters were superheroes, especially at the higher levels.  When we started playing with ODD, a first level PC was a hardened veteran and could easily take on city guard and plain old warriors.  I never understood how the 1st level somehow became a bumbling novice.  But after a couple levels they are supers.  It is just they operate according to different rules of conduct and killing an enemy is OK.

 

When I went to the OSR and started replaying B/X era D&D, I found this thought process (which I'd been guilty of) really funny. In the old days, early edition 1st level characters were actually quite tough, compared to the mundane world. A warrior could have twice (8) the hp of a commoner (4) before Con. A wizard could put down an entire village mob with a single spell. A cleric could restore a grieviously wounded individual to full health. A thief could...well, thieves still sucked. REgardless, 1st level characters weren't idiots. 

 

I think power creep and the constant influx of new, tougher monsters distorted the idea of what the characters represented. I suppose dungeons with instant kill death traps didn't help either. Later editions made it worse with every NPC having levels (wth is a 20th level commoner exactly?!?), but that became necessary because they tried to build NPCs the same way as PCs and for someone to be good at skills required high character levels. And such, 1st level characters became more and more bumbling morons. 

 

As much as I wasn't super fond of the Non Weapon Proficiencies in 1st and 2nd edition, the nice thing they accomplished was allowing a character to be skilled in a mundane task regardless of level. So a person could be an excellent blacksmith without having 10 levels, for example. 

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When the late great Aaron Alston started writing modules and supplements for Rules Cyclopedia D&D (the white hardcover rule book and Mystara campaign setting), he instituted an optional Characteristic-based Skill system reminiscent of Hero System. That made it easier to build more rounded PCs, as well as NPCs with useful abilities who didn't also have to be "high-level."

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On 3/31/2020 at 6:30 PM, Lord Liaden said:

When the late great Aaron Alston started writing modules and supplements for Rules Cyclopedia D&D (the white hardcover rule book and Mystara campaign setting), he instituted an optional Characteristic-based Skill system reminiscent of Hero System. That made it easier to build more rounded PCs, as well as NPCs with useful abilities who didn't also have to be "high-level."

 

Actually those were a repackaging of the Non-Weapon Proficiency rules from AD&D that appeared in Oriental Adventures (Gary Gygax, 1985) first and were refined in Dungeoneer's Survival Guide  (and then Wilderness SG and then became part of 2E core). OA was published  two years (and DSG 1 year) before AA's Grand Duchy of Karameikos introduced Skills into BECMI.

 

That said, I think the implementation of Skills was smoother than NWP, especially the class based ones in 2nd Edition. And I completely agree that the system is better for building characters who are capable in non-combat tasks then the systems that came later. 

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