How does the 'Cover' maneuver work?

[Duke Bushido]

45 minutes ago, Greywind said:

 

Doesn't matter. A character can only have one attack/action available at a time.

 

41 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

That isn't technically true, or else Trigger wouldn't work the way it did.

 

Tywill pointed out the Trigger discrepancy; I will point out anotherther one:  the ability to launch more than one attack via MPA attacks.  And for the one relevant to the topic at hand:

 

The attack action isn't in this Phase.  It may have been in the previous one, but it could have been in _any_ previous one.  The attack action is acquiring the target and rolling to hit.  End of Phase.   Opting to roll the damage later instead of right now is what defines it as Cover instead of just another attack. 

 

Going straight off of rules for what is and isn't a phase-ender (which means pretty much a second half-move or an attack),  it seems perfectly legal to roll the cover damage and still take both of your available actions in any Phase after cover has been established. 

[dsatow]

Just my $0.02.

 

Personally, I think it's a matter if the player can decide whether to use a power that is at the issue.  If the player does not have a choice (i.e. that choice is preprogrammed into the trigger), then the action can occur during another action.  If the player can choose what to do with the action, then it can not occur in the same segment as another of the player's actions.

 

Example: A trigger for a land mine would allow two attack actions in a single segment by the player because the player does not control the action of the land mine.

Example: A player covering a target would only get their action or the cover damage, because the player can choose to release the cover.

 

[Doc Democracy]

4 hours ago, Greywind said:

If an action is held until it rolls around their next phase they lose the held action.

 

I think sometimes folk are a bit too rigid in their definition of a phase.  If a SPD 3 character holds a phase on segment 4, when is the last segment he can use that and still utilise next phase?

 

To me, he can hold it all the way to segment 11, then act on segment 12 and again segment 1 (though he would sacrifice his post-seg 12 recovery doing this).

 

To my way of thinking, segment 8 is the first point he could use his second phase, if he holds it into segment 12 then it is lost and he is using his third phase action.

 

I used SPD 3 because the effects are so extreme at low speeds. There is an argument to be made that as long as there is a segment to carry out the second phase action he could carry it through into the start of the third phase but I think that is too much.

 

[Duke Bushido]

Well, D; I am _not_ saying you're wrong.   Seriously: if it wasn't a bit vague here and there, this thread wouldn't exist at all, right?  

 

However, playing it as you lay it out (which, for the record, is close to what I do, on the rare occasion I use it-- as detailed above), then it isn't a special move or rules exception or anything like that: it's merely a held action.

 

Again-- nothing wrong with that, and it certainly give way more power to the idea of escaping cover via a distraction (as the "Coverer" must now decide to deal with the distraction or not, knowing that doing so will force him to lose his advantage).

 

[Duke Bushido]

2 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

There is an argument to be made that as long as there is a segment to carry out the second phase action he could carry it through into the start of the third phase but I think that is too much.

 

 

 

It's funny you bring that up (sorry; you hadn't yet posted when I captured dsatow's quote, or I'd have gotten this, too.

 

I used to play it exactly that way, back before "combat starts on Phase 12" happened.  I have to be honest, I don't really remember why we stopped doing it.  I mean, we still do what you are doing; it makes sense:

 

If I hold Phase 3 until Phase 8-- essentially, I am using Phase 3 on Phase 6 and now sitting on a held Phase 6, right?  So why does it suddenly become wrong to go further with that logic, particularly since I can only keep a single held Phase.  I mean, if the rules allowed you to do a Capcom's Balrog-style hold 12 Phases for the ultimate Turn-around Punch, I can see an issue. But you can only hold one.  

 

What prompted us to change it?  I wasn't kidding; I really don't remember.  Certainly it wasn't the advent of a bunch of bookkeeping at "post-12," as that wasn't new.  And nobody _starts_ combat with a held phase...

 

I may have to go back into letting them hold a Phase all the way around the Turn.  It doesn't really hurt anything, from all I ever saw.

 

 

[Greywind]

3 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

I think sometimes folk are a bit too rigid in their definition of a phase.  If a SPD 3 character holds a phase on segment 4, when is the last segment he can use that and still utilise next phase?

 

To me, he can hold it all the way to segment 11, then act on segment 12 and again segment 1 (though he would sacrifice his post-seg 12 recovery doing this).

 

To my way of thinking, segment 8 is the first point he could use his second phase, if he holds it into segment 12 then it is lost and he is using his third phase action.

 

I used SPD 3 because the effects are so extreme at low speeds. There is an argument to be made that as long as there is a segment to carry out the second phase action he could carry it through into the start of the third phase but I think that is too much.

 

 

Segment 7. After that he's holding his segment 8 action until segment 11.

[Doc Democracy]

4 hours ago, Greywind said:

 

Segment 7. After that he's holding his segment 8 action until segment 11.

The first segment you can use the second phase of a speed 3 character is indeed segment 8.  If you know you are going to use the second phase action on segment 11 why can you not hold the first phase action until segment 10? 

 

My biggest  restriction is that I would not allow more than four action in a 12 second turn, three actions plus a held one from a previous turn.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

14 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

The first segment you can use the second phase of a speed 3 character is indeed segment 8.  If you know you are going to use the second phase action on segment 11 why can you not hold the first phase action until segment 10? 

 

My biggest  restriction is that I would not allow more than four action in a 12 second turn, three actions plus a held one from a previous turn.

Because when your next Phase comes up you lose the held action.  FREDp360, "he loses any Held Action when the next Segment in which he has a Phase begins". 

[Doc Democracy]

OMG!  Why would you go and look at the rules!!!  🙂

 

So dodge benefits etc also lapse at that point?

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

33 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

OMG!  Why would you go and look at the rules!!!  🙂

 

So dodge benefits etc also lapse at that point?

Yeah sorry, it's a real bad habit of mine that my group keeps trying to get rid of but without much luck. 

 

Not quite that soon, luckily for everyone Aborting against higher-DEX foes. 

FREDp383 says "Any modifiers from a Maneuver remain in effect from when the character performs the Maneuver until the beginning of his next Phase." and p356 says "A character’s Phase begins on his DEX in each of the indicated Segments.".  So if you have DEX 21 SPD 4 and Dodge in Segment 3 (or 4, or 5), your Dodge ends at the start of DEX 21 on Segment 6.   IE, if a character does nothing but Dodge they can maintain a permanent +3 DCV.  There's no "gap". 

But if you'd held your action from Segment 3, it'd "wear off" at the start of Segment 6.  For that reason, this character cannot act (except via Trigger or Abort) before DEX 21 on Segments 3, 6, 9, or 12.*  IE, if a character does nothing but Hold Action, they cannot maintain permanent readiness.  There are "gaps" for a higher DEX character to do something first. 

*: There is an explicit "GM may override this" clause: "(The GM may, if he wishes, let a character Hold his Action until his next Phase begins, but if he chooses to use the Held Action before his Phase occurs, it takes the place of his Phase — he cannot have two Phases in the same Segment.)"

[Vanguard]

Nothing to see here . . .please carry on