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unclevlad

Non-AI computer characteristics questions

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So, the character concept centers on bionic powers...the character can modify his body.  Strength, Dex, Speed...combat purposes, a martial artist type.  Some extremely nice senses, too.  As I was working up what else fit...computer.  It'd be part of him, but the nice side perk of letting it do the work on things he doesn't need to.  

 

Basically this is gonna be several skills and the obvious perks.  No control systems or anything, and definitely no Ego.  Doesn't fit.  OK, pretty clearly, OCV and DCV can go to 0.  DEX?  It's pretty much only going to be when I can get an answer in a given phase, right?  The bigger ones are OMCV and DMCV...particularly DMCV.  Feels like DMCV is the "you can't find me because I have no signature" kind of characteristic?  Which would be high, considering that it's a graphene nanocomputer that's built into his bone structure.  And I'm not sure what the point of OMCV is, for a non-AI.

 

 

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Well there are a few things here to think about. 

 

First, DMCV is what the computer will use to try and resist someone hacking it/taking it over remotely. OMCV is what the computer would use if you ask it to hack another computer remotely. 

 

As for letting the computer "work" on things he doesn't have to, your character will still have to either give commands to the computer or if the computer doesn't have the right Perk, make computer programming checks to operate it. I assume that since this is all internal to your character's body, then that means you will need a Mental Link between your character and the computer so you can give it commands and give the computer "Access" to all of your character's senses, because otherwise the computer is blind/deaf and dumb to the outside world. 

 

If fact, maybe you should consider other options then building it as a Computer. What exactly did you want it to do? What programs would it run? Maybe it would be best to just build it as a multipower with certain advantages and limitations and the Special effect that it is a computer inside you? 

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Yes, to the Mind Link;  it's in there.  And sure, he spends an action setting up something but then lets the computer deal with it.  As for the multipower...ugh.  I dislike buying skills and talents that way without good reason.

 

I don't believe it can be taken over remotely...it's not an AI with an Ego.  Fine, you can use Mind Control (computers)...but how are you gonna communicate with it?  I'm not planning to build an R2-D2 style "plug in then attack the other system" altho that's a thought.  The high DMCV makes it hard to find for Mind Link or Mind Control in the first place...but 6E2 184 says AIs can be affected by Mental Powers targeting the computer class of mind.  It doesn't ever say that about non-AIs.  

 

Duke:  mostly information management, skills, and background tasking.  This is what it has at this point:

VAL    CHA    Cost    Roll    Notes
15    DEX    10    12-
23    INT    13    14-    PER Roll 14-
0    OCV    -15
0    DCV    -15
3    OMCV    0
15    DMCV    36
4    SPD    20    Phases:  3, 6, 9, 12

Characteristics Total: 49

Cost    Powers
10    Mind Link , One Specific Mind, Psychic Bond - END=0
3    GPS:  Detect Exact Location on Earth 14- (Radio Group) - END=0

Powers Total: 13


Cost    Skills
3    Systems Operation 14-
3    Cryptography 14-
3    Security Systems 14-
3    Computer Programming 14-
3    Navigation 14-
3    AK: City 1 14-
3    AK: City 2 14-
3    AK: City 3 14-
3    AK: City 4 14-
3    AK: City 5 14-

Skills Total: 30


Cost    Talents
3    Lightning Calculator
5    Eidetic Memory
3    Absolute Time Sense
3    Absolute Range Sense
1    Program:  Comms Filtering
1    Program:  Web Browse
1    Program:  Maps
1    Program:  Emergency Radio Scanning
 

There's still points left over for stuff, so who knows.  Right now these are the baseline kinds of features;  languages is one thing that I'll throw in.  Beyond that, how it'd get extended is something that's hard to define in advance, and better to define during play.  

 

 

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It would also help if you could clarify what practical advantage building this concept as a Computer is supposed to give your character, that he won't get from buying the Skills, Talents, and Powers for his character directly, and just calling them the Special Effect of having a computer-enhanced brain?

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Even if he's asleep or knocked out, the computer still works.  (Note to self...character probably wants Lightsleep...and the SFX here would be the computer raising an alert.)

 

And to a large degree, it's just a cleaner definition.  It's the most natural approach, IMO.  

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As it is currently built, it has no access to the outside world, except for your character's mind/senses,  so it would never be able to use System Operations, Security Systems, or Computer Programming except as maybe feeding your character information on how to perform those skills, but even then that would generally only be as a complementary skill roll to the roll the character would have to make himself. 

 

Also, the emergency radio scanning program has nothing connected to it (the computer isn't built with a radio sense) so unless the character has that sense then the computer can't make use of that program, and I guess it might be a GM call, but if the computer is making use (radio scanning) of the character's sense that does that, then the character is going to be hearing all of that all the time as he is the one with the sense and the computer is just "overriding it" to scan the frequencies. Same with Comm Filtering. The computer doesn't have that sense to use/filter, so it must be overriding the Charatcer's natural sense for that. 

 

So you probably want to give it High Range Radio Sense. 

 

As for Mind Control (Computer Class Minds) as per the Cybermancy powers that were built/used in all the official Characters and Powers book, the computers controlled do not need to have Ego or be an AI to be controlled. People with those powers are shown to be able to take over/control all types of computers and machines. 

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10 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

Even if he's asleep or knocked out, the computer still works.  (Note to self...character probably wants Lightsleep...and the SFX here would be the computer raising an alert.)

 

The computer can only keep running programs it is already running them at the time the character goes to sleep or is knocked out. As per the rules, only AI computers (with an Ego score) can automatically start running programs and operate on their own independent of someone controlling them. 

And in this case, if the character is knocked out or asleep the computer has no sense of it's own and would be blind/deaf and dumb to the outside world so it wouldn't be able to "raise an alert" as it A) can't act on its own since it is not an AI, and B ) has no way of knowing what is going on in the outside world. 

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Character has HRRP.  With Mind Link, I figure the computer can use it.  Scan and comms can keep running...so a sudden high priority message?  Boom.  

 

The Cybermancy would be a potential issue...but that's part of the argument for the MDCV.  BUT...worst comes down to worst, just turn the computer off.

 

 

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Another option would be to build the computer as a Follower (the rule book even lists an intelligent computer as a possible follower). 

 

Once you sell back all the starting points for some many of its stats, plus the complications of not having a physical body, etc... by putting 20 character points in to building it would give you a 100pt follower or more (heck, your current build is over 60 character points, and doesn't do everything you need) so if you spent 50 points on it you'd have a 250pt follower and still save 10+ character points on the build. 

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It is a Follower, yes, built using the Computer rules.  It's 110 as posted, by those rules.

 

Duke:  it can't be taken away, so it can't be a focus.  And a skill pool still means it's his actions and his attention.

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45 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

Character has HRRP.  With Mind Link, I figure the computer can use it.  Scan and comms can keep running...so a sudden high priority message?  Boom.  

 

The Cybermancy would be a potential issue...but that's part of the argument for the MDCV.  BUT...worst comes down to worst, just turn the computer off.

 

 

 

I would see this as conceptually better to give the computer the HRRP, and then have it share the filtered messages through the Mind Link. It explains how the computer would have access to do the scanning, and would also deal with the pesky problem of the character hearing the scanning squeals. 

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One thing to note: Mind Link isn't enough to share senses in the "I see what you see" sense, it can only share senses in the "Tell you what I'm seeing?  OK, I'm seeing a red firetruck.  Slightly scuffed front bumper, dented on the right side too.  License plate is..." sense.  You need Clairsentience for "I see what you see". 

 

I fully agree with Duke, "computer built into you and unable to interact with the outside world except through you" isn't a Computer, it's SFX for why your character has the appropriate skills/characteristics/powers. 

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Wow!  Thanks, GB(i).  I'm honored.   Seriously-- I mean, we don't often completely disagree, but we don't completely agree any more frequently than that, either.   I appreciate the vote of confidence!   :)

 

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

It is a Follower, yes, built using the Computer rules.  It's 110 as posted, by those rules.

 

Duke:  it can't be taken away, so it can't be a focus.  And a skill pool still means it's his actions and his attention.

 

 

Ah; thanks.

 

I missed that.  Is it some sort of implant, then?

 

(does anyone remember if the Harbinger of Cheese and Bullets had his pool set up as a focus?  I _really_ don't want to have to read that book again....)

 

 

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His major power is bionics, so...not an implant per se.  Grown in place.  

 

GB...you're probably right.  I'll look at that Clairsent issue some more.

 

HRRP probably shouldn't go onto the computer.  If I have to take that down, I lose the HRRP...and that, for outside reasons, doesn't work.  That said, I could give *both* of them the HRRP.  That might make more sense...no Clairvoy needed at that point.  I'll have to look...cuz the HRRP is actually *quite* expensive, if you want to give it radio-class range.  Just because it's radio doesn't mean it gets different range mods, technically.  And HRRP is a base of 12 points, so tacking MegaScale isn't exactly cheap either.  

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Okay, Vlad (if I may),

 

I've been pondering this since my last post, and I still think -- were it _me_-- I am not advocating a "best build possible" sort of thing-- that I would do it as I suggested earlier, minus the IIF  (unless that "grown in place" thing is something you want to tag as an Inobvious, Inaccessible Focus, but I suppose that depends on how quickly they can drill into your head and get it when you are rendered helpless.  :lol:  ).

 

I just don't see anything that you're gaining with all the extra points your spending.  From what you've put up so far, it seems like a sci-fi-oriented SFX.

 

As far as not getting the feel of having to ask and get answered, you could apply Extra Time.  As far as someone else telling you versus "you just knowing," I think we're going back to "Combat Luck:"  The _mechanics_ say "Armor."  The _description_ says "just missed me!"  (still, as I stinkin' _hate_ Combat Luck _because_ of the build versus the description, I totally get why you don't want my suggestion. ;)  ).

 

So let's look at it another way:

 

The computer tells Tony Stark "sensors indicate a structural defect near the load-bearing stanchions beyond the cargo door."

But _Ironman_ has Find Weakness.

 

Damn I wish I could explain this better.....

 

At any rate: there aren't really any rules covering how many things you can think in a given amount of time in HERO, nor how many Skills you can know (beyond paying for them, at any rate).  That makes it difficult to see what you are actually gaining by spending points to build and communicate with a computer that, by inference from your "It can't be taken away" comment will always be available and always able to serve....  much like you just bought the Skill or knowledge in a pool with Extra Time (or Time Delay, or whatever) and perhaps "limited by radio access" for those situations where some sort of shielding or interference is in play.

 

Still, I understand the "I just want something different;" really I do.   :lol:

 

I tried, but I can't come up with anything that I find more practical.  

Sorry, Dude.   :(

 

 

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I think I need to see some more examples of building this thing as a follower being advantageous or significantly different then just making the computer an SFX. Like, what are some contexts where your character is doing one thing and the computer is doing another and you need them to be separate? He's been knocked out but the computer is still online, so he's just partially resistant to unconsciousness? What does he want to happen while he's asleep or knocked out? Hack something, acquire some kind information, communicate with teammates?

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48 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

Okay, Vlad (if I may),

 

I've been pondering this since my last post, and I still think -- were it _me_-- I am not advocating a "best build possible" sort of thing-- that I would do it as I suggested earlier, minus the IIF  (unless that "grown in place" thing is something you want to tag as an Inobvious, Inaccessible Focus, but I suppose that depends on how quickly they can drill into your head and get it when you are rendered helpless.  :lol:  ).

 

I just don't see anything that you're gaining with all the extra points your spending.  From what you've put up so far, it seems like a sci-fi-oriented SFX.

 

As far as not getting the feel of having to ask and get answered, you could apply Extra Time.  As far as someone else telling you versus "you just knowing," I think we're going back to "Combat Luck:"  The _mechanics_ say "Armor."  The _description_ says "just missed me!"  (still, as I stinkin' _hate_ Combat Luck _because_ of the build versus the description, I totally get why you don't want my suggestion. ;)  ).

 

So let's look at it another way:

 

The computer tells Tony Stark "sensors indicate a structural defect near the load-bearing stanchions beyond the cargo door."

But _Ironman_ has Find Weakness.

 

Damn I wish I could explain this better.....

 

At any rate: there aren't really any rules covering how many things you can think in a given amount of time in HERO, nor how many Skills you can know (beyond paying for them, at any rate).  That makes it difficult to see what you are actually gaining by spending points to build and communicate with a computer that, by inference from your "It can't be taken away" comment will always be available and always able to serve....  much like you just bought the Skill or knowledge in a pool with Extra Time (or Time Delay, or whatever) and perhaps "limited by radio access" for those situations where some sort of shielding or interference is in play.

 

Still, I understand the "I just want something different;" really I do.   :lol:

 

I tried, but I can't come up with anything that I find more practical.  

Sorry, Dude.   :(

 

 

I think many talents would be perfect for simulating integration with a computer system. Danger sense, combat sense, absolute range sense, absolute time sense, etc. These are *fantastic* candidates for being skinned as having 24/7 supercomputer integration. Personally, if it were my character, I would like the computer integration to be so seamless that I don't need the Follower mechanics. That would be cooler, to me.

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On 4/10/2020 at 4:38 PM, unclevlad said:

His major power is bionics, so...not an implant per se.  Grown in place. 

 

Just a note here.  Bionics is just another name for cybernetics.   If you're looking for something that's "grown in place" you're looking for bioware or other type of genetically modified/enhanced items.

 

Due to that, I can see the advice for just making the skills/abilities intrinsic to the character.

 

That being said, I did something like this with one of my characters.   With the notable difference that the computer started out as a normal one but wound up gaining sentience as the game went on.

 

On 4/10/2020 at 6:06 PM, Duke Bushido said:

The computer tells Tony Stark "sensors indicate a structural defect near the load-bearing stanchions beyond the cargo door."

 

Would you be amused to know that I read that in JARVIS' voice?

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2 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

Just a note here.  Bionics is just another name for cybernetics.   If you're looking for something that's "grown in place" you're looking for bioware or other type of genetically modified/enhanced items.

 

Due to that, I can see the advice for just making the skills/abilities intrinsic to the character.

 

From Encyclopedia Brittanica:

Bionics, science of constructing artificial systems that have some of the characteristics of living systems. Bionics is not a specialized science but an interscience discipline; it may be compared with cybernetics. Bionics and cybernetics have been called the two sides of the same coin. Both use models of living systems, bionics in order to find new ideas for useful artificial machines and systems, cybernetics to seek the explanation of living beings’ behaviour.

 

So they're not the same.  But...so what?  That has nothing to do with anything.  Bionics came to mind for Steve Austin...and if you think that way, well then it's all good.  I'm not gonna sweat that kind of hair-splitting.  Yes, MOST of his powers are just built in, and that's the SFX.  I've decided I'm leaving the computer in...yeah, I gave it the Clairsent, (using the character's HRRP) and I gave it Mental Def to slow a hacker down enough to deal with.  Not enough to completely stop, but slow down to allow for a response.

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