What other superhero RPGs have you played?

[zslane]

I played in a GURPS Supers game for a brief time back in the early '90s and it was awful. Part of that was due to the GM not really understanding the superhero genre (he was really a GURPS Fantasy guy), and part of it was due to the fact that GURPS simply does not scale up to superhero power levels without utterly breaking. Or at least, that was the case with GURPS 3rd edition; I wouldn't really know if 4th edition is any kind of improvement in this area. Moreover, the Supers book had glaring omissions. For example, in Supers 1st edition, there was a Flash attack but no Flash defense. At GenCon that year I asked Lloyd Blankenship (the book's author) why there was this glaring asymmetry and his reply was that he didn't believe that every attack in the game had to have a corresponding defense. I already had a deep disdain for GURPS as a whole, but that really put the last nail in its coffin for me.

[fdw3773]

5 hours ago, zslane said:

I played in a GURPS Supers game for a brief time back in the early '90s and it was awful. Part of that was due to the GM not really understanding the superhero genre (he was really a GURPS Fantasy guy),

 

Your mentioning of your GM's challenges reminds me of a humorous vignette I read in the 5th Edition Champions sourcebook, if I remember right, that explained the superhero genre and how to run scenarios in it. As an example of what can go wrong, the vignette described Joe Orlando, who had spent around 20 years or so working on EC's Tales from the Crypt before working for Marvel Comics. He kept asking his script writers things like, "Why does the Thing have to smash through the wall to get into the building? Couldn't he just use the door like everyone else?" The exasperated writer replied, "Joe, either you get it or you don't!"

[zslane]

Yeah, it can be a real problem when the GM isn't well-versed in the conventions of the genre in play. But this particular GM also didn't grasp the vast difference in power levels between four-color supers and the default GURPS Fantasy setting. I was making characters appropriate for your average Champions campaign (e.g., a Colossus clone named Warhammer), but he was stuck in a conceptual space where he expected a few thugs with guns to be a serious threat. Because, after all, in his GURPS Fantasy campaign, a band of brigands with crossbows were deadly business to his typical adventurers.

 

 

[HeroGM]

I'm sorry...there are others?

[Spence]

19 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

Mutants & Masterminds is closer to Champions than any other games on this list so it seems natural that it is featured. While GURPS Supers turns the granularity/options dial to 11, M&M turns it down to 7, which could be a good thing. While M&M fans will repeat the meme that M&M does 80% of what HERO does for 20% of the complexity, it is only exactly that, a meme. The numbers are chosen (sometimes we see 90/10) to stress a point: M&M is somewhat less powerful than HERO and somewhat less complex. My own perception of M&M is that it can do 80% of what HERO does for about 80% of the work (and because I am more fluent in HERO than M&M, it is currently 200% of the work 😊). The quality of the supplements is excellent even if they do not produce as often or as quickly as during the better days of the game. Full colour, hard covers with good art and contents, what is not to love. Add to it a streamlined scale and generally more compact write-ups than Champions and you really want to adopt it. However, the d20 resolution is swingy, the tactical options are not as numerous as it is in Champions and character creation not quite as meaty. I appreciate this is exactly what others are after but for me, it means that M&M is only 80% as enjoyable as HERO. The trade-off in the end is not good. Maybe one day it will click but for now M&M plays in the exact same space as Champions and unless I specifically want to give it another chance, I would never choose it over Champs.

 

Well said.   

One thing I would like to see is Champions products with M&M production value....

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

5 minutes ago, Spence said:

 

Well said.   

One thing I would like to see is Champions products with M&M production value....

Definitely! 

M&M also seems to be a lot better at grokability.  Some "why isn't that information here" issues aside, it's an easier to understand book even when dealing with equally crunchy subjects. 

[DreadDomain]

4 hours ago, Spence said:

 

Well said.   

One thing I would like to see is Champions products with M&M production value....

I would submit that at the start of the 6E era, this is what we are getting.

[Greywind]

I wouldn't say I've run or played them, but I've dabbled with a lot of the different systems to see what they offered and how they worked. Including a lot of the more obscure efforts out there.

[Tech]

Have tried Superhero2044, Villians & Vigilantes, Battletech (not really a rpg per se), Mighty Protectors (helped fund it), Gamma World (1st edition), Champions (ALL versions), Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Big Eyes-Small Mouth, Robotech RPG (1st editions).

 

Gamma World could be manipulated to creating honking powerful heroes. Roll the dice, you hit, they're dead - doesn't matter what your stats or powers were. Was fun to have someone like that on your side.   Tactics was king in that game; if they couldn't hit you, you survived, if they could, well, you didn't survive long. Had an entire team killed off in the first fight. Ouch.

 

Superhero 2044 (1st ed) was a pathetic DnD version of superheroes, and very math intensive (see White Dwarf Magazine #9, October/Nov 1978).

 

V&V was too random. TMNT could end up with a powerful hero... or not: battles could take a long time.... looooong.

 

BESM, even the most powerful heroes ended up gasping for energy after a few attacks. On the other hand, you could easily make someone invulnerable.

 

Robotech was fun. Had a campaign lasting, wow, over 20 years I think. Stopped because people moved, couldn't get everyone together.

 

Been playing Champions since 1981 so that makes it 39 years - and the same campaign is still going and expanding. If it was a good campaign before, it's become even more excellent. Some of the first characters created are still being used, and have reputations like Superman.

 

 

 

 

[pbemguy]

I just remembered: I played a supers game using the d6 system--the same one used for the Star Wars rpg, what's it called?

 

D6 Adventure.

 

It was actually really fun, we played about ten sessions, and the system worked well for superheroing. I can't vouch for how it built superpowers--I had a Punisher-type guy so it was an easy build, but the other players had quite a range of powers.

 

Anyone else play a supers game in this?

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D6_Adventure

 

EDIT: I just remembered why we stopped after 10 sessions. The GM wanted to play, and I wanted to GM, and so we switched, but I converted everyone to Champions 5e. LOL. We went another 10 sessions and it was also good.

 

[fdw3773]

11 hours ago, Spence said:

 

Well said.   

One thing I would like to see is Champions products with M&M production value....

Yes! The production quality and style of Mutants & Masterminds and ICONS,  along with other games like Fantasy Age and Dragon Age by Green Ronin Publishing has always been first rate. I would love to see that also and would happily purchase those products.

[Greywind]

2 hours ago, Tech said:

Battletech (not really a rpg per se),

 

Battletech, no. MechWarrior and variations of, yes.

[DShomshak]

One-shots with V&V, one of the Marvel games and Aberrant. Not much interest in second sessions.

 

A few playtest sessions with a friend's attempt to create a d20-based system. He swears he's going to finish it someday.

 

And several sessions with another friend's homebrew supers game. Traveller stats and dice mechanics, such as they were. The power generation system was, "Write a paragraph describing what your character can do." Of course it only worked because we all trusted the GM, and the GM was good at improvising and judging on the fly. It also helped that he created the best setting I've ever seen.

 

Dean Shomshak

 

 

[Spence]

11 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

I would submit that at the start of the 6E era, this is what we are getting.

Not quite.  A good step forward, but no really a full transition. 6th Ed Fantasy Hero was IMO the best spiffed up Hero books.  But it, and the other 6th Ed books, were more 1970's textbooks upgraded to a better paper and a few color pics inserted.  M&M books are fully realized and originally designed as full color books, from paper to borders (including colored chapter tagging) to text to art.

 

When I flip through my M&M books it is cooler throughout.  When I flip through a Hero 6th book, it is a sea of black and white text with the island of color.

 

Don't get me wrong, I still think it the books like Fantasy Hero 6th (and 5th) are some of the best RPG supplements for for content out there.  But there has not been an official Hero product to date ( that I have seen) that escapes the text book vibe.

[DreadDomain]

3 hours ago, Spence said:

Not quite.  A good step forward, but no really a full transition. 6th Ed Fantasy Hero was IMO the best spiffed up Hero books.  But it, and the other 6th Ed books, were more 1970's textbooks upgraded to a better paper and a few color pics inserted.  M&M books are fully realized and originally designed as full color books, from paper to borders (including colored chapter tagging) to text to art.

 

When I flip through my M&M books it is cooler throughout.  When I flip through a Hero 6th book, it is a sea of black and white text with the island of color.

 

Don't get me wrong, I still think it the books like Fantasy Hero 6th (and 5th) are some of the best RPG supplements for for content out there.  But there has not been an official Hero product to date ( that I have seen) that escapes the text book vibe.

I agree with all of the above. It was getting close but there still something missing and I believe the text book vibe is what I could not put my finger on. My favorites were 6E1, 6E2, Champions and Fantasy HERO. Champions Villains were great but they could have done with a better character sheet layout and some of the art did not quite have the right vibe. Ahhh that era did not last long...

[Sketchpad]

5 hours ago, Spence said:

When I flip through my M&M books it is cooler throughout.  When I flip through a Hero 6th book, it is a sea of black and white text with the island of color.

 

2 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

I agree with all of the above. It was getting close but there still something missing and I believe the text book vibe is what I could not put my finger on. My favorites were 6E1, 6E2, Champions and Fantasy HERO. Champions Villains were great but they could have done with a better character sheet layout and some of the art did not quite have the right vibe. Ahhh that era did not last long...

 

This is my biggest problem with Hero books. As a designer, I want a book that looks polished, not a text book from 1983. I should also note that @DreadDomain has an awesome layout for character stats. If I were to make books for Hero, I would be looking to borrow elements from it.

[fdw3773]

1 hour ago, Sketchpad said:

This is my biggest problem with Hero books. As a designer, I want a book that looks polished, not a text book from 1983. I should also note that @DreadDomain has an awesome layout for character stats. If I were to make books for Hero, I would be looking to borrow elements from it.

Same here. It was the textbook writing style and excessive rules that pushed me away from Hero for a while to check out other superhero RPGs over the years. The big transition in style and tone arguably started during the transition from 4th to 5th Edition when it stopped reading like a game and more like a textbook (I've posted this before in another discussion topic). By then, some of the game designers who had helped develop earlier editions had been let go (or forced out, depending who you ask) in lieu of new staff writers and leadership that developed what exists now with 5th and 6th Edition. 

 

If it wasn't for Champions Complete, I would probably be still playing DC Heroes (Third Edition) by Mayfair Games or running Mighty Protectors (V&V 3.0).

[DreadDomain]

2 hours ago, Sketchpad said:

I should also note that @DreadDomain has an awesome layout for character stats. If I were to make books for Hero, I would be looking to borrow elements from it.

Thanks Sketchpad, it's very kind of you. It's available in the download section (DC and Marvel Sample Heroes 1.0.0) if anyone is interested. I'll try to put a few more characters in the pack this week-end.

 

I created this character sheet because I generally find the official sheets unappealing. 

[pbemguy]

19 hours ago, Spence said:

Not quite.  A good step forward, but no really a full transition. 6th Ed Fantasy Hero was IMO the best spiffed up Hero books.  But it, and the other 6th Ed books, were more 1970's textbooks upgraded to a better paper and a few color pics inserted.  M&M books are fully realized and originally designed as full color books, from paper to borders (including colored chapter tagging) to text to art.

 

When I flip through my M&M books it is cooler throughout.  When I flip through a Hero 6th book, it is a sea of black and white text with the island of color.

 

Don't get me wrong, I still think it the books like Fantasy Hero 6th (and 5th) are some of the best RPG supplements for for content out there.  But there has not been an official Hero product to date ( that I have seen) that escapes the text book vibe.

 

This is what I was trying to put my finger on, and you nailed it. The textbook vibe. Could it be that players who like textbooks are drawn to Hero, but that it repels most people? Because I like textbooks. But I couldn't see that Hero was mostly textbooks. I'm too "in" it to see that. This was a huge revelation to me.

 

Over on another thread I was discussing the outdated design of the Hero books, and that any new things published by Hero should, IMO, get rid of that. Now I have a better understanding of what makes Hero seem outdated and unlovable to some people (not me!).

[Greywind]

51 minutes ago, pbemguy said:

 

This is what I was trying to put my finger on, and you nailed it. The textbook vibe. Could it be that players who like textbooks are drawn to Hero, but that it repels most people? Because I like textbooks. But I couldn't see that Hero was mostly textbooks. I'm too "in" it to see that. This was a huge revelation to me.

 

Over on another thread I was discussing the outdated design of the Hero books, and that any new things published by Hero should, IMO, get rid of that. Now I have a better understanding of what makes Hero seem outdated and unlovable to some people (not me!).

 

My cousin wanted to learn to play Star Fleet Battles. Couldn't get into the rules because it read too much like a military manual.

[zslane]

The original Star Fleet Battles game came with a rulebook that was small and readable. It was with the addition of all the supplements and follow-on games that the official rules became a massive tome requiring a three-ring binder ala Advanced Squad Leader. I guess this is the nature of successful systems that evolve and grow and amass a body of rules too big for beginners to digest. The HERO System has followed a somewhat similar path, though I think the issue there isn't one of "too many rules now" but one of "bloated presentation".

[Sketchpad]

2 hours ago, zslane said:

The HERO System has followed a somewhat similar path, though I think the issue there isn't one of "too many rules now" but one of "bloated presentation".

 

I agree. I think the BBB is the best presentation of the Champions rule set. YMMV, of course, but 4th ed played well, it was relatively in with current designs, and, personally,  I found it a fun read. 

[zslane]

The 4e BBB is also my favorite edition. In fact, it's my favorite RPG rulebook of all time.

[Greywind]

9 hours ago, zslane said:

The original Star Fleet Battles game came with a rulebook that was small and readable. It was with the addition of all the supplements and follow-on games that the official rules became a massive tome requiring a three-ring binder ala Advanced Squad Leader. I guess this is the nature of successful systems that evolve and grow and amass a body of rules too big for beginners to digest. The HERO System has followed a somewhat similar path, though I think the issue there isn't one of "too many rules now" but one of "bloated presentation".

 

My brother brought home an early version when he was on leave on year. I first picked up the Commanders and worked my way up to the Doomsday.

[DreadDomain]

On 4/17/2020 at 9:37 AM, Sketchpad said:

 

 

This is my biggest problem with Hero books. As a designer, I want a book that looks polished, not a text book from 1983. I should also note that @DreadDomain has an awesome layout for character stats. If I were to make books for Hero, I would be looking to borrow elements from it.

For your info, I have uploaded the DC and Marvel Sample Heroes file in the download section. I have added Cyborg to the Justice League and Donna Troy, Omen and Tempest to the Titans. I have also added the Hero Designer files (except for Colossus which comes from the HERO System Book of Templates).