fdw3773 Posted April 18, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2020 22 hours ago, zslane said: The 4e BBB is also my favorite edition. In fact, it's my favorite RPG rulebook of all time. Yes, there's a soft spot in my heart for the 4th Edition BBB as well. 🙂 At the time, it was a comprehensive rules book that held up well to its competitors in terms of presentation and style. I also liked the simplified format for listing character stats. Attached is a 4th Edition write-up I did for Superman for a previous game convention and a current one for 6th Edition to compare the subtle differences between the two. From my understanding, the intent of Champions Complete was to be something comparable to the 4th Edition BBB...a comprehensive book to play Champions (or the Hero System in general, when you break it down) that wasn't over 600+ pages of rules that read like a textbook. How the latter was going to attract new players to Champions or the Hero System in general continues to baffle me today. 🤨 Superman4E.pdf Superman6E.pdf Spence 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted April 18, 2020 Report Share Posted April 18, 2020 1 hour ago, fdw3773 said: From my understanding, the intent of Champions Complete was to be something comparable to the 4th Edition BBB...a comprehensive book to play Champions (or the Hero System in general, when you break it down) that wasn't over 600+ pages of rules that read like a textbook. How the latter was going to attract new players to Champions or the Hero System in general continues to baffle me today. 🤨 Superman4E.pdf 88.91 kB · 1 download Superman6E.pdf 2.07 MB · 1 download I think the original intent was to use Sidekick to attract new players into 5th/6th edition. The problem was, once they were in, there was a text book to read to expand on things. I think this is where 4th ed had done a better job. Having books that are geared toward specific sub-campaigns could be a better route in so many ways. fdw3773 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted April 19, 2020 Report Share Posted April 19, 2020 22 hours ago, fdw3773 said: From my understanding, the intent of Champions Complete was to be something comparable to the 4th Edition BBB...a comprehensive book to play Champions (or the Hero System in general, when you break it down) that wasn't over 600+ pages of rules that read like a textbook. I feel that Champions Complete is more like the first three editions of Champions than it is like the 4e BBB. The latter had more comprehensive coverage of the superhero genre in its S and C sections. In fact, the S and C sections were later printed as the Champions genre book. 4e was really quite an elegant product line, IMO. Sketchpad and fdw3773 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreadDomain Posted April 20, 2020 Report Share Posted April 20, 2020 13 hours ago, zslane said: I feel that Champions Complete is more like the first three editions of Champions than it is like the 4e BBB. The latter had more comprehensive coverage of the superhero genre in its S and C sections. I agree. Champions Complete could have benefitted from 3 things. Sections S and C from the Champions 4E. The Superhero Gallery from Champions 6E. The production value of Champios 6E. 13 hours ago, zslane said: In fact, the S and C sections were later printed as the Champions genre book. It was?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fdw3773 Posted April 20, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2020 8 hours ago, DreadDomain said: I agree. Champions Complete could have benefited from 3 things. Sections S and C from the Champions 4E. The Superhero Gallery from Champions 6E. The production value of Champions 6E. Yes, Champions Complete would have been a much better product if it possessed those three important elements. For me, Champions Complete is a much better alternative for running Champions than the set of Hero System 6th Edition textbooks. Unfortunately, am not sure if Hero Games had the resources to publish something to that quality at that point. When one compares the product quality of the Champions source book published in February 2010 and Champions Complete published in November 2012, there is noticeable downturn (e.g. cover and interior art). It's too bad that Hero Games could not re-package 1st, 2nd, and 3rd (and maybe even 4th and 5th) as something like, Classic Champions with some new cover art for sale or print-on-demand where there is the softcover and hardcover option, something that the company producing Mighty Protectors (V&V 3.0) did. The publishers for D&D did something similar with its 1st Edition books with success (attached is an example). Granted, the parent company has much, much more financial capital to draw from to make that happen. 😉 Scott Ruggels 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted April 20, 2020 Report Share Posted April 20, 2020 11 hours ago, DreadDomain said: It was?? Yep. Softcover with the same art as the BBB. It is quite rare. 3 hours ago, fdw3773 said: The publishers for D&D did something similar with its 1st Edition books They also did that for the 2nd edition books as well. fdw3773 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spence Posted April 20, 2020 Report Share Posted April 20, 2020 4 hours ago, fdw3773 said: Unfortunately, am not sure if Hero Games had the resources to publish something to that quality at that point. This is something that always confuses me. I have not published anything, so I am definitely not any kind of expert. But I do support KS's. Fantasy Hero Complete was formatted like CC and was put out at ~220-250(?) pages (I'm on my phone and don't have it in front of me) on KS and raised $20125. The Sassoon Files was ~200 for a KS total of $24183. But SF is in glorious color with glossy paper and photographs that resemble period photos. A modernized version of CC or FHC would not need an author. It would need a editor and layout person to update the text for known errata and place the text on the pages. I cannot understand how Hero cannot afford the art needed to update to a modern look when multiple projects are put out annually with great color and art plus being written from the ground up within 1 to 4 thousand dollars in cost. If I was I my home machine I have several great RPG books that funded for less than FHC but are still colorful with great relevant art. Like I said, I am not an expert, but what I observe doesn't add up. Sketchpad and fdw3773 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fdw3773 Posted April 20, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2020 3 hours ago, Spence said: Like I said, I am not an expert, but what I observe doesn't add up. You are not alone in that thought, Spence. Unfortunately, we'll never really know why certain decisions were and were not made by the company's senior staff and leadership team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreadDomain Posted April 21, 2020 Report Share Posted April 21, 2020 9 hours ago, zslane said: Yep. Softcover with the same art as the BBB. It is quite rare. Cool! I was curious and couldn't find it on the list of HERO's product (didn't look to deeply, only wikipedia). Must be a collector item now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted April 21, 2020 Report Share Posted April 21, 2020 1 hour ago, DreadDomain said: Cool! I was curious and couldn't find it on the list of HERO's product (didn't look to deeply, only wikipedia). Must be a collector item now! https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hero-Hero-Champions-4th-Ed-Champions-4th-Edition-SC-Fair/362963141875?epid=1604651865&hash=item54824a04f3:g:6u4AAOSwondeiTUA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted April 21, 2020 Report Share Posted April 21, 2020 On 4/16/2020 at 9:03 AM, pbemguy said: I just remembered: I played a supers game using the d6 system--the same one used for the Star Wars rpg, what's it called? D6 Adventure. It was actually really fun, we played about ten sessions, and the system worked well for superheroing. I can't vouch for how it built superpowers--I had a Punisher-type guy so it was an easy build, but the other players had quite a range of powers. Anyone else play a supers game in this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D6_Adventure EDIT: I just remembered why we stopped after 10 sessions. The GM wanted to play, and I wanted to GM, and so we switched, but I converted everyone to Champions 5e. LOL. We went another 10 sessions and it was also good. I’ve seen this but didn’t know that it could build Supers. I picked up D6 Powers which uses the D6 System. I never got to play it though. (It still has the wonky Stun rules from the original D6). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbemguy Posted April 21, 2020 Report Share Posted April 21, 2020 2 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said: I’ve seen this but didn’t know that it could build Supers. I picked up D6 Powers which uses the D6 System. I never got to play it though. (It still has the wonky Stun rules from the original D6). Oops, yeah, I think I meant D6 Powers. I mostly used D6 Adventure because I was building a Punisher clone, but the rest of the group used this: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreadDomain Posted April 21, 2020 Report Share Posted April 21, 2020 16 hours ago, zslane said: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hero-Hero-Champions-4th-Ed-Champions-4th-Edition-SC-Fair/362963141875?epid=1604651865&hash=item54824a04f3:g:6u4AAOSwondeiTUA Isn't that book just the SC version of the BBB? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted April 22, 2020 Report Share Posted April 22, 2020 No. It is only 244 pages. Like I said, the 4e softcover Champions sourcebook had the same cover as the BBB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreadDomain Posted April 23, 2020 Report Share Posted April 23, 2020 On 4/22/2020 at 11:48 AM, zslane said: No. It is only 244 pages. Like I said, the 4e softcover Champions sourcebook had the same cover as the BBB. So there was a Champions 4e softcover rule book and a Champions 4e softcover genre book? [Mind blown]😵 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted April 23, 2020 Report Share Posted April 23, 2020 Speaking of the BBB, looks like it's been released as a B&W POD over at DriveThruRPG for $30. I wish it were HC, but it's nice that it's back in print. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spence Posted May 4, 2020 Report Share Posted May 4, 2020 On 4/23/2020 at 6:50 AM, Sketchpad said: Speaking of the BBB, looks like it's been released as a B&W POD over at DriveThruRPG for $30. I wish it were HC, but it's nice that it's back in print. I ordered a copy. I'm not big on POD, but I am hoping things are better than they were the last time I tried it. Sketchpad 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordLeoToledo Posted July 6, 2020 Report Share Posted July 6, 2020 I started gaming in the 80s and Champions was first, then Superworld. In fact, ran a loose SW campaign that started as a CoC (Call of Cthulhu) game , on and off for nearly a decade. Also tried Marvel TSR and Gurps. pbemguy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archer Posted July 11, 2020 Report Share Posted July 11, 2020 Really only played a little V&V 1st ed. and Champions. I own most everything HERO published up through 4th edition Champions. Also own or owned DC Mayfair and lots of modules Marvel TSR and lots of modules Marvel and DC conversion charts to Champions Heroes Unlimited (which was cool but all the local players hated the company's other products at the time so no one was willing to give its superhero game a shot) Biff Bam Pow which was a California-based homebrew supposedly working its way to publishing when I got a copy to critique in the mid-1990's. I pointed out a few places where the rules needed minor clarifications and suggested some changes to a couple of skills if I remember correctly. Unexpectedly well-written for a homebrew. Biff Bam Pow was a better gaming system than anything DC or Marvel had put out up to that time. Don't know if it ever made it to publication and if it did, under what name it was marketed. I read through GURPS Supers but didn't think it could work for a 4 color campaign so didn't buy a copy of my own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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