Invulnerability

[Astromath]

I have figured out a possible way to obtain invulnerability (but not 100%).

 

85 Desolidification  (affected by Divine or Spiritual powers), Inherent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; any condition that results in damage but before damage is taken; +1) (170 Active Points); Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (-1/2), Always On (-1/2)

 

and

 

32 Continuous (+1) for up to 40 Active Points of Desolidification (40 Active Points); Limited Power Desolidification turns off after the condition that results in damage goes away. (-1/4)

 

I used desolidification because anything that does damage and does not have the Affects Desolidified advantage will not do damage to the PC.  However, since Desolid requires some type of effect that bypasses it, I used Divine/Spiritual powers.  This is useful in a fantasy setting.  For a more modern setting change this to being affected by mental powers.  Making it invisible will make it seem that the PC does indeed seem invulnerable to the damaging condition.  The inherent is so that it cannot be turned off by almost any means.  For reduced endurance, being invulnerable should not cause the PC to tire out.  Persistent is there so that the Desolid cannot be turned off by being unconscious.  Invulnerability doesn't mean the PC can go through walls, therefore the Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects limitation.  The always on limitation means that the PC himself cannot turn the power off.  I put Continuous as a Naked Advantage because there needs to be a way for the Desolid be able to turn itself off once the damaging condition ends.  This allows the PC to walk through fire or even lava or on the bottom of the ocean without taking damage.  Depending on the setting, the limited power on Continuous may be worth 0 instead of -1/4.  The big thing that makes this work is the Trigger.  Without this and the naked advantage, the PC will never be able to affect the physical world without the appropriate advantage.  If you want to make it a little more realistic, add the limitation Does Not Protect Against Knockback for -1/2.  Even the Hulk or Juggernaut takes knockback when hit and they both have invulnerability.  This is where the CPTSO comes into play in that the PC can be knocked back into a building causing collateral damage to that building.

 

The only downside to this invulnerability is that while the PC is in the fire, he cannot affect the physical world until the damaging condition stops.  Of course, you can have another limitation in that the Desolid can only protect against the damaging condition.  This would allow a PC to rescue people from a fire.  I would recommend a -0 limitation modifier for this.

 

The use of this invulnerability does have the byproduct of being a type of very expensive Life Support for several of its aspects.  The invulnerable PC cannot drown (this is a damaging condition), cannot be poisoned (also a damaging condition).  However, dying of old age is not a damaging condition whereas a heart attack is.  For immortality the PC still must buy the appropriate LS.

 

I use the words "damaging condition" to indicate that the damage can come from any source, be it instantaneous attacks or something that's ongoing or even internal to the PC.

 

If anyone can improve on this, go ahead.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

I would not accept your "Always On but turns off" construction. 

I also wouldn't accept this SFX-mechanics combination.  Desolid is not for invulnerability, it's for inability to interact with and be interacted with by certain things. 

Furthermore, your proposed "Desolid, not against Mental Powers" is invalid.  Mental Powers already affect Desolid. 

I have no idea what you're trying to do with Continuous as a Naked Advantage in terms of RAW, I can't see any way that would do what you say it's doing. 

And even if your power worked, what GM would allow it? 

 

Even if a GM somehow accepts your construct, this offers absolutely no defense against surprise or invisible attacks because the Trigger is dependent on your senses. 

Likewise, generic power rules state you cannot both turn a power on and off in the same Phase.  Even if a GM accepts your construct, it won't activate if you've recently turned it off to be able to interact with the world around you. 

Even avoiding that detail, you're also rendered totally impotent (as you do note) by even the weakest constant damage effect. 

And lastly, by the definition of how Desolidification works, this can't provide some of the Life Supports you mention like protection from drowning. 

 

In summary, this doesn't work and even if it did it's nowhere near invulnerability.  There's much better uses for over a hundred points. 

[Amorkca]

Interestingly, the Character Creation Cards list desolidification as a way to be Invulnerable.

 

Card #52

1) Invulnerable:  Desolidification , Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (50 Active Points); Limited Power Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (-1/2)

2) Affects Physical World Cost Based On Strength (50 Active Points)

 

[dsatow]

One last thing about using desolidification is that because it costs end, its visible.  So whenever you "invulnerable" you look desolid.  I personally wouldn't do invulnerability this way, but that's just me.

[Amorkca]

2 hours ago, dsatow said:

One last thing about using desolidification is that because it costs end, its visible.  So whenever you "invulnerable" you look desolid.  I personally wouldn't do invulnerability this way, but that's just me.

 

How would you do "Invulnerable"?

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

4 minutes ago, Amorkca said:

How would you do "Invulnerable"?

Invulnerability in general?  GM Fiat.  This character is invincible because.  Go break his kneecaps with the mcguffin or find his secret weakness or talk him down while he tries to punch you or lure him onto a rocket headed to the moon or whatever, but superpowers to the face won't work. 

Invulnerability to one specific thing?  Damage Negation, 100% Damage Reduction, or a whole lot of the relevant generic defense.  Or GM Fiat, that works too. 

[Surrealone]

By definition, 'invulnerable' means 'impossible to harm or damage'.  Per RAW on 6e1 p190, "Furthermore, a character must define the special effects of a reasonably common group of attacks that affect him while he's Desolidified." RAW then goes on to provide examples of what is meant by 'reasonably common group of attacks" using a few that have very clear cut special effects.

 

Put succinctly, Desolidification is NOT a defensive 'I win' button … and it certainly does not provide a defense against all attacks that meets the definition of 'invulnerable' given the above text from RAW … in addition to Mental Powers also applying.

 

I'm scratching my head trying to figure out the point of playing a character or NPC … in a game … that is 'impossible to harm or damage' (i.e. 'invulnerable'), anyway.  That just seems awfully boring, to me.  If the intent is for a GM-controlled plot device, then treat it like one and don't bother defining it, as GM fiat is fine. Then again, GM fiat is, IMHO, an unnecessary crutch typically wielded by weak-minded GMs .... that's also awfully boring.

[Greywind]

Which all tends to circle back around to the fact that the Hero System does not do absolutes.

[dsatow]

1 hour ago, Amorkca said:

How would you do "Invulnerable"?

 

As GM, I would simply set the DC for the game on average to be X DC, say 12 DC,  and then give the villain X * 6 pts of every defense possible.  As GM, if I say a villain is invulnerable, they are invulnerable.   I have no point limits.  What I need to do is make an interesting and defeat-able villain.  Just because you can make someone invulnerable does not mean you should.  

[dmjalund]

1 hour ago, Greywind said:

Which all tends to circle back around to the fact that the Hero System does not do absolutes.

Only the Sith deal in absolutes

[Doc Democracy]

I ran a super-agents game a long time ago.  Each agent had one special power, one dimensional stuff.  We had an agent that could run like the wind, one that could fly, one that could go invisible and one that was invulnerable.

 

It was surprising what worked the way the players thought it would and what did not. 🙂  The invulnerable character ended up crashing a car into a ravine and being stuck in the wreckage while the car filled up with water.  We had a bit of a long discussion on whether invulnerability was protection from drowning.

 

It was an interesting campaign even if just to highlight how we tend to round characters out in a point buy system...

 

Doc

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

2 minutes ago, dmjalund said:

Only the Sith deal in absolutes

But HERO System should be able to deal in Sith.  Or did Star HERO lie to me? 

[Greywind]

1 hour ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

But HERO System should be able to deal in Sith.  Or did Star HERO lie to me? 

 

Wasn't the co-author of that someone named "Pal P. Tine"?

[IndianaJoe3]

9 hours ago, dsatow said:

One last thing about using desolidification is that because it costs end, its visible.  So whenever you "invulnerable" you look desolid.  I personally wouldn't do invulnerability this way, but that's just me.

 

If I was going this route, I might describe the character as, "looking invulnerable" rather than desolid.

 

As far as builds go, it's not a bad model. The character would be unaffected by damage, except for one SFX (which fits the source material reasonably well). The flaw is that the character would also be affected by powers that are specifically bought with, "Affects Desolid," which does not fit.

[dsatow]

5 hours ago, IndianaJoe3 said:

 

If I was going this route, I might describe the character as, "looking invulnerable" rather than desolid.

 

As far as builds go, it's not a bad model. The character would be unaffected by damage, except for one SFX (which fits the source material reasonably well). The flaw is that the character would also be affected by powers that are specifically bought with, "Affects Desolid," which does not fit.

 

The only problem here is that your special effect for desolidification tells people you are desolid.  While looking up the page reference I also note, senses like Radar and Targeting Smell (do characters really want to know who farted?!?!) will note you've gone desolid. 

 

Interestingly, you can't feel things while desolid, which raises the question are you effectively touch sense flashed while desolid?  Even if buy Str usable while desolid, it doesn't mean you have your sense of touch while desolid.  Guess I have an interesting question for Steve.

 

6e1p190:

Quote

 

When Desolidified, a character cannot be touched, doesn’t register on Sonar or Radar, and emits no scent. However, he can still breathe, and must do so; Desolidification provides no Life Support. Desolidified characters are visible, but look somewhat hazy (people can tell they’re using Desolidification).

 

A Desolidified character cannot touch or feel solid objects. But except for Touch Group Senses, all of a Desolidified character’s Senses, even “active” ones like Radar, work normally while he’s intangible.

 

 

[Amorkca]

We built characters using the above mentioned character creation cards and one of the players drew that card, been working with it since then.  

 

This is why I'm looking at other means to define the "Invulnerability".  They did encounter one villain so far who could hurt this player it came as a shock!!

[Ragitsu]

I don't see what the big deal is: invincibility does not protect the mind, is not proof against transmutation ("Congratulations...you are the world's first unbreakable amoeba."), does nothing against teleportation attacks and, most importantly, places a character in a horrific position when their loved ones are facing a threat.

[Ragitsu]

53 minutes ago, Amorkca said:

This is why I'm looking at other means to define the "Invulnerability".  They did encounter one villain so far who could hurt this player it came as a shock!!

 

If villains start hurting your players, you may want to consider burning each and every character sheet - NPCs especially - posthaste. For everyone's sake, I hope you didn't give this malefactor ED versus fire.

[Doc Democracy]

5 hours ago, dsatow said:

The only problem here is that your special effect for desolidification tells people you are desolid.

 

Is this the exception that proves the rule??

 

To me, all the powers in the book are simply mechanics that have SFX wrapped round them.

 

Desolid as a mechanic means that the character takes no damage from attacks unless they are affect desolid, mental or of a reasonably common group.  It also allows a character to pass through solid objects. 

 

If you take that last bit away, it is pretty reminiscent of Superman.  Almost nothing hurts him unless it is mental or magic or kryptonite.

 

Doc

[Ragitsu]

Correct me if I am incorrect, but...isn't Mr. "I'm technically invincible, but also quite intangible." going to make for a dreadful "human" shield?

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

17 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

Is this the exception that proves the rule??

 

To me, all the powers in the book are simply mechanics that have SFX wrapped round them.

 

Desolid as a mechanic means that the character takes no damage from attacks unless they are affect desolid, mental or of a reasonably common group.  It also allows a character to pass through solid objects. 

 

If you take that last bit away, it is pretty reminiscent of Superman.  Almost nothing hurts him unless it is mental or magic or kryptonite.

 

Doc

The problem is that, as Ragitsu mentions, attacks that fail due to desolid pass right through.  Even Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects doesn't help with this.  Which makes it pretty obvious what's going on, and is absolutely not the "Superman Effect". 

[dsatow]

Being able to tell if you are desolid or not, is not a special effect but a play balance measure and a mechanic that is integral to all the powers.  All powers which normally cost end have a visible effect.  If you did not want to tip off people that you are desol, then you should but invisible power effect to the inobvious level.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

7 minutes ago, dsatow said:

Being able to tell if you are desolid or not, is not a special effect but a play balance measure and a mechanic that is integral to all the powers.  All powers which normally cost end have a visible effect.  If you did not want to tip off people that you are desol, then you should but invisible power effect to the inobvious level.

 

On 4/19/2020 at 11:04 PM, Astromath said:

85 Desolidification  (affected by Divine or Spiritual powers), Inherent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; any condition that results in damage but before damage is taken; +1) (170 Active Points); Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (-1/2), Always On (-1/2)

 

...

 

Making it invisible will make it seem that the PC does indeed seem invulnerable to the damaging condition. 

Emphasis is mine. 

 

But the problem is that even if the power has no perceivable manifestation, any random idiot can still see attacks passing right through the target. 

[megaplayboy]

I once wrote invulnerability up as Extra DCV, Fully Invisible.  Unless you hit the character really well, it would appear that you struck them dead on to absolutely no effect.  There were some additional caveats(didn't work vs magic or if the character was surprised in combat, e.g.), but in practice it would be an extremely intimidating way to do it.  Also, it costs no END.  Most GMs would scream about a PC with that gimmick, though(I was a GM and it was a mega/master villain).  

One of the APGs offers 100% Damage Reduction as an option.  

Basically, I would say any creative power build that is around 40+ active points or more is a good candidate--Extra PD/ED, Force Field(invisible), Barrier/Force Wall(self-surface only), Damage Negation, Damage Reduction, Desolid, etc.  Then you apply appropriate limitations to both get the cost down and set the conditions/sfx the invulnerability doesn't work against.  

[Doc Democracy]

9 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

 

Emphasis is mine. 

 

But the problem is that even if the power has no perceivable manifestation, any random idiot can still see attacks passing right through the target. 

 

Again, an imposition of SFX that is not entirely necessary.  As GM, once the "can phase through solid objects" is taken off the table, I would be content for attacks to deflect off the character, almost lensing.

 

I do think you are focussing on the NAME of the mechanic rather than the EFFECT.  It is unlikely that you do this with most other mechanics and indeed I have seen most if not all of you come up with extremely creative ways of using the toolbox.  It is why I have stuck around so long.

 

My biggest struggle has been getting my players to play their powers rather than the mess of numbers on the character sheet.

 

I do not want them to think " Oh, he is desolid, I will use my affect desolid attack next time".

 

I want them to think "Nothing seems to affect him, I wonder if my intense plasma ray would do it".

 

I actually hate affect desolid, in my games no affect desolid will be allowed to blanket hit every SFX of desolid.  I make my players consider why their power affects a desolid character and what kind of SFX of desolid it might not work against.

 

Doc