Invulnerability

[Grailknight]

2 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Are you sure? Like I said not every campaign uses hard limits. And as a matter of perspective  I don’t see it as any more a problem than say Flight -only touching ground to simulate super running.

 

 

Extra Defenses used to simulate invulnerability may need GM approval to purchase, but don't require any changes to RAW to work in any campaign. If you have larger defenses of any sort they are covered by RAW because they add seamlessly. 

 

Using Desolidification  need all kinds of rule tweaks and hand waves. At the very least it needs a new Advantage to cover how "Cannot pass through solid objects" is altered to stopping things from passing through the character. If he steps in front of a moving car, what happens? Without Affects Real World what the only effect a desolid  character has on others and the environment is blocking LOS. Disadvantages do not and should not make a power better in any way.

 

1-The desolid character needs to buy affects real world on all their offensive powers to do anything while desolid. I can't see any way around this unless you want to favor this SFX of Desolid over all others. 

 

2- The desolid character shouldn't be able to block for others. If he/she can why would anyone ever invest in Deflection or Force Wall to protect others? Deflection has a chance to fail, and Force Wall can be broken by a large attack.  Desolid invulnerability has neither of these problems and is effectively giving the shielded character  the benefits of Desolid with Affects Real World(nothing prevents him from attacking) for free without even paying for Affects Real World for themselves or UBO to extend it to them.

 

3-Desolid invulnerability should be penetrated by attacks that Affect Desolid. Only a few have suggested otherwise(and mostly as a change to the broadness of Affects Desolid) but to do otherwise also runs into the favoring one SFX over another issue. And unless you buy Invisible Power Effects, an opponent would know the reason you're not taking damage is because you're Desolid. They can then attack you with their Affects Desolid  attack( which cost extra points to purchase for this singular use). 

 

Now this is not saying that you shouldn't use Desolid as Invulnerability in your campaigns. If you and your players are good with it , then it's all good.. I am just giving you my logic against using Desolid this way as a change to RAW. It does not simplify the game.

[Ninja-Bear]

Ok Grailknight  let respond to your points.

1) No one has suggested otherwise. It’s part of making Invulnerable so expensive which it should.

2) This point i don’t follow. Do you think every character is going to hide behind mister invulnerable? And how would this be any different than say Capt Shield? Or someone that has a Force Wall?

3) No it shouldn’t. And as to favoring sfx we already do that with Missile Deflection (older edition), Blocking Ranged Attacks, Deflection and Reflection. If mister invulnerable is giving up going through walls then affects Desolid shouldn’t automatically affect him.

Does using Desolid uses rules tweaks? Yeah. Have you thought about how much Entangle is affected depending if it’s defined as a block of ice or a  bola? Even accounting for advantages and limitations put on them? Technically if you buy leg chains as entangle that should stop all movement no? Yet I have rules dealing with how much you can move and what techniques you can use when bound by leg chains.  

[Doc Democracy]

18 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

If mister invulnerable is giving up going through walls then affects Desolid shouldn’t automatically affect him.

 

I was with you until this bit.

 

Affects Desolid, as an advantage, means that an attack that would otherwise do no damage to a desolid character, does damage to a desolid character.  It is keyed into an aspect of the power that is not affected by the limitation you put on the desolid.

 

I am one of those that requires affect desolid powers to indicate what they are and why they affect a desolid character, many of those effects would probably also work against CPT INVULNERABLE.  Freaky interplay of powers.  I would also give players a clue that their freaky affect desolid power may have effect (unless, of course, the desolid was bought invisible).

 

The question of walking into traffic is a good one but CPT INVULNERABLE does interact with solid matter, he just is not harmed by it.  I would rule that it does the same as anyone else that walks into traffic.  He would be hit, the car would take damage as if it had hit a normal person.  Unless he had some ability to avoid it, the good captain would take knockback, he just would not take damage.

 

I would also say that, of course he can block for others, just like anyone else that can interact with materials from the solid world can.  It is no great advantage, anyone is allowed to block and they take no damage by doing so.  Jumping in front of an attack is simply a block on behalf of an attack directed at someone else, it is not affected by the desolid power.

 

Someone using the captain as cover would be using their noggin.  The man IS INVULNERABLE after all. 🙂 But beware of knockback....

 

Doc

[Ninja-Bear]

Doc I should’ve said depending on sfx of Affects Desolid, yes I can still see it working. And really if pushed on it, I really don’t see it being that much of an issue to just accept that Affects Desolid still Affects would affect Cpt. Invulnerable.  Good point about getting hit in traffic. 

[Ninja-Bear]

Hey Doc fwiw the last game I got to play this year,  The GM has a house rule that  no matter the sfx Desolid can affect Desolid. So Shadow Dragon was able to affect Vibron and vice vests.

[Doc Democracy]

39 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Hey Doc fwiw the last game I got to play this year,  The GM has a house rule that  no matter the sfx Desolid can affect Desolid. So Shadow Dragon was able to affect Vibron and vice vests.

 

I think I hate that even more than the blanket affect desolid!  😄

 

I guess it could RAW be rationalised as one of the reasonably common SFX that allows desolid to be countered.

 

What would the opinion be of someone buying Desolid twice, once for the usual reasons and once to affect the special effects etc that the other desolid did not cover?  Would be expensive but deservedly so....

 

Doc

[Ninja-Bear]

What can I say Doc? It’s been their house rule since 3rd ed. 

[Grailknight]

8 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Ok Grailknight  let respond to your points.

1) No one has suggested otherwise. It’s part of making Invulnerable so expensive which it should.

2) This point i don’t follow. Do you think every character is going to hide behind mister invulnerable? And how would this be any different than say Capt Shield? Or someone that has a Force Wall?

3) No it shouldn’t. And as to favoring sfx we already do that with Missile Deflection (older edition), Blocking Ranged Attacks, Deflection and Reflection. If mister invulnerable is giving up going through walls then affects Desolid shouldn’t automatically affect him.

Does using Desolid uses rules tweaks? Yeah. Have you thought about how much Entangle is affected depending if it’s defined as a block of ice or a  bola? Even accounting for advantages and limitations put on them? Technically if you buy leg chains as entangle that should stop all movement no? Yet I have rules dealing with how much you can move and what techniques you can use when bound by leg chains.  

 

Ok, we agree on point 1.

 

Cap's Shield or a Force Wall can be overcome with a big enough attack. Deflection can fail the roll. Desolid is absolute for both the blocker and the protected.

 

So your Limitation on Desolid, based on SFX, makes it a better power which can now ignore an Advantage that has no game effect except to counter Desolid?  Giving up one aspect of the power does not make it better in its other aspects. It's a Limitation not an Advantage. And the newer edition no longer favors SFX.

 

Hero is based on divorcing SFX from Mechanics. Rather than make special rules for that SFX(leg chain Entangle) you should add an appropriate Limitation.

 

8 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

I was with you until this bit.

 

Affects Desolid, as an advantage, means that an attack that would otherwise do no damage to a desolid character, does damage to a desolid character.  It is keyed into an aspect of the power that is not affected by the limitation you put on the desolid.

 

I am one of those that requires affect desolid powers to indicate what they are and why they affect a desolid character, many of those effects would probably also work against CPT INVULNERABLE.  Freaky interplay of powers.  I would also give players a clue that their freaky affect desolid power may have effect (unless, of course, the desolid was bought invisible).

 

The question of walking into traffic is a good one but CPT INVULNERABLE does interact with solid matter, he just is not harmed by it.  I would rule that it does the same as anyone else that walks into traffic.  He would be hit, the car would take damage as if it had hit a normal person.  Unless he had some ability to avoid it, the good captain would take knockback, he just would not take damage.

 

I would also say that, of course he can block for others, just like anyone else that can interact with materials from the solid world can.  It is no great advantage, anyone is allowed to block and they take no damage by doing so.  Jumping in front of an attack is simply a block on behalf of an attack directed at someone else, it is not affected by the desolid power.

 

Someone using the captain as cover would be using their noggin.  The man IS INVULNERABLE after all. 🙂 But beware of knockback....

 

Doc

 

If Capt Invulnerable want to use a Block to shield a character, that's edgy. Stopping an attack, which would pass right through a Desolid character without this "limitation", and taking KB is definitely interacting with the world. He can still fail the block in this scenario.

 

Using Capt Invulnerable as cover should only give bonuses to DCV without any activity on Cap"s part. Or be a Diving for Cover with bonuses..

[Doc Democracy]

2 hours ago, Grailknight said:

If Capt Invulnerable want to use a Block to shield a character, that's edgy.

Not so edgy, it is in the rules

 

Quote

BLOCKING FOR SOMEONE ELSE A character can Block for someone else — a useful tactic when he wants to defend an injured or defenseless person from an attacker. To do this, a character must be within Reach of either the attacker or the target (either naturally, or because he can extend his Reach with a weapon or some other way).

 

 

2 hours ago, Grailknight said:

Stopping an attack, which would pass right through a Desolid character without this "limitation", and taking KB is definitely interacting with the world.

Of course it is, I limited the bit of the desolid power that stopped me interacting with the real world.  I would require some element, strength or something else to have the advantage that allowed it to be used while desolid that would allow him to block.

 

obviously he is cover, if the person behind is small enough or the captain big enough the cover should be enough to ensure the cover is complete...

[Grailknight]

10 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

Of course it is, I limited the bit of the desolid power that stopped me interacting with the real world.  I would require some element, strength or something else to have the advantage that allowed it to be used while desolid that would allow him to block.

 

obviously he is cover, if the person behind is small enough or the captain big enough the cover should be enough to ensure the cover is complete...

 

Ok, given this clarification, I'd have no issues.

[massey]

As with most questions of "how do I do this" in Hero, the answer is to build it exactly how you want it to work.  How do you visualize the power functioning in game?

 

If you never have any intent to jump in front of a bus and smash it to a dead stop so it doesn't crush a baby stroller, then you don't need to worry about that aspect of invulnerability.  In games where combat is much less common, then maybe invulnerability is a cool trick rather than a power all on its own.  I can imagine some '70s TV show themed game (where everybody's powers have to be portrayed in a really low budget way) where "invulnerable" only means that you're bulletproof, and you can stick a fork in an electrical socket and be safe.  10/10 armor, some Life Support, and 10" Gliding only to protect against falls might be enough.  Some quirky special use powers (+30 Str only to hold up collapsing objects, 3D6 Minor Transform only to use self as component of machine or structure (so you can repair a downed power line by holding each end and letting it flow through you)) might be fun.

[Ninja-Bear]

Ok short of beating a dead horse, for those whom have 6th ed vol 2 pg 266. Has 2 points which I was trying to make earlier in this thread. Principle 1, the rules are designed to have fun, you can ignore the letter of the rules in order to have fun. Principle 6. (Which we seem to to do too much on these boards, me included) Don’t waste time worrying about the “exact right way” to build an ability. Build it for your game and it works the way you make it work.