How to Build: Clear the Room

[Sketchpad]

Hello Herophiles! 

I'm working on converting some characters over to Hero and got snagged on an idea that I thought best to consult the Hive Mind of Heroism. 

 

In the original system, there's an ability called "Takedown" which states:

 

Quote

If you render a minion incapacitated with an attack, you get an immediate extra attack as a free action against another minion within range and adjacent to the previous target’s location. The extra attack is with the same attack and bonus as the first. You can continue using this advantage until you miss or there are no more minions within range of your attack or your last target.

A second rank in this advantage allows you to attack non-adjacent minion targets, moving between attacks if necessary to do so. You cannot move more than your total speed in the round, regardless of the number of attacks you make. You stop attacking once you miss, run out of movement, or there are no more minions within range of your attack.

 

I'm looking to emulate something similar in Hero terms. So I was thinking of something like:

 

Quote

Clear the Room:  Blast 1d6, Area Of Effect (6m Radius; +1/2), Selective (+1/4) (9 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Limited Power Only against Agent/Normal Level Characters (-1/4)

 

The amount of damage could be increased, of course, and the radius may be increased, but should stay within the character's normal movement ability. 

 

Anything I should add? Take away? Rebuild? 

[Doc Democracy]

I would add a NCC limitation to the area effect element of the attack.  If it is going to emulate then it only allows a second minion to be attacked if the first is hit, incapacitated and the second minion is adjacent to the first etc etc.  Each attack is dependent on the success of the previous one.  As such, it is not within the characters gift to attack all of the minions at once.

[Greywind]

SFX: Noxious odor?

[Sketchpad]

2 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

I would add a NCC limitation to the area effect element of the attack.  If it is going to emulate then it only allows a second minion to be attacked if the first is hit, incapacitated and the second minion is adjacent to the first etc etc.  Each attack is dependent on the success of the previous one.  As such, it is not within the characters gift to attack all of the minions at once.

 

The only problem with NCC is that it's not under the character's control. They can't consciously activate or use it. The attack would be something the player initiates. Or am I reading it wrong? 

[Doc Democracy]

Oh yes, the attack, the primary one, is under your control but your ability to make the next attack is not.

 

I understand that there IS an element of volition about hitting a second target if the first attack is successful but this is a reduced form of volition.  There are gradations of NCC, this is probably only 1/4  or 1/2 and ONLY on the cost of area effect.

 

Doc

[Brian Stanfield]

How about something simple like Autofire, maybe with Penalty Skill Levels to reduce the cumulative penalties to hit p to a certain extent? Just spitballing here . . . if it hits I'll fire another . . . .

[Sketchpad]

1 hour ago, Doc Democracy said:

Oh yes, the attack, the primary one, is under your control but your ability to make the next attack is not.

 

I understand that there IS an element of volition about hitting a second target if the first attack is successful but this is a reduced form of volition.  There are gradations of NCC, this is probably only 1/4  or 1/2 and ONLY on the cost of area effect.

 

It's an interesting idea, Doc. I'm almost wondering if the whole thing just doesn't warrant a new Advantage all together. 

 

20 minutes ago, Brian Stanfield said:

How about something simple like Autofire, maybe with Penalty Skill Levels to reduce the cumulative penalties to hit p to a certain extent? Just spitballing here . . . if it hits I'll fire another . . . .

 

I considered Autofire, Brian. I just don't think it would have the same feel to it. And I think the whole thread is for spitballing the idea around.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

12 minutes ago, Sketchpad said:

It's an interesting idea, Doc. I'm almost wondering if the whole thing just doesn't warrant a new Advantage all together.

 

I don't think it does anything that Trigger doesn't. 

Something like Trigger (+1) for ## AP of attack powers, Limited to only activate when a "minion" is defeated and only to target a "minion" adjacent to the defeated "minion" should do Takedown 1.  Trim off that last bit and add a Trigger for movement and you should get Takedown 2. 

[Sketchpad]

2 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

I don't think it does anything that Trigger doesn't. 

Something like Trigger (+1) for ## AP of attack powers, Limited to only activate when a "minion" is defeated and only to target a "minion" adjacent to the defeated "minion" should do Takedown 1.  Trim off that last bit and add a Trigger for movement and you should get Takedown 2. 

 

Hmm... maybe. I've never been good with Trigger for some reason.

 

[Sketchpad]

On the other hand, maybe I should also look to see how agents are made. 30 Stun seems like a lot for a standard Viper agent. 

[Doc Democracy]

1 hour ago, Sketchpad said:

 

It's an interesting idea, Doc. I'm almost wondering if the whole thing just doesn't warrant a new Advantage all together. 

 

It is what limited power is all about.  Make one up.  You are limiting the effectiveness of the area effect...the value is probably somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2. 😄

[Tech]

3 hours ago, Sketchpad said:

On the other hand, maybe I should also look to see how agents are made. 30 Stun seems like a lot for a standard Viper agent. 

 

The 1993 Viper book has your standard Viper agent with 25 Stun, Trainees with 22 Stun, upwards to 29 Stun for Viper Commanders.

The 2003 Viper, Coils of the Serpent, has General Combat Specialist at 30 Stun to 31 Stun.

 

As a GM though, I seriously questioned the 2003 book standard agents costing 186 pts, with the Superhuman Combat Specialist up to 329 pts. That's a personal opinion but I stick by it.
 

Being able to incapacitate a 25 Stun agent (not including defenses) almost sounds like a 10d6 Blast, AE of some sort.

[massey]

7 hours ago, Greywind said:

SFX: Noxious odor?

 

Yeah I was gonna say, many gamers possess this power by default.

[Ninja-Bear]

On 4/24/2020 at 8:49 AM, Sketchpad said:

Hello Herophiles! 

I'm working on converting some characters over to Hero and got snagged on an idea that I thought best to consult the Hive Mind of Heroism. 

 

In the original system, there's an ability called "Takedown" which states:

 

 

I'm looking to emulate something similar in Hero terms. So I was thinking of something like:

 

 

The amount of damage could be increased, of course, and the radius may be increased, but should stay within the character's normal movement ability. 

 

Anything I should add? Take away? Rebuild? 

I like the build. I agree with Doc about the NCC limitation.  However the only versus agent limitation seems a little cheesy. I’m thinking the agents themselves should have a physical complication: takes x1 1/2  from Heroes!

[DreadDomain]

On 4/24/2020 at 10:49 PM, Sketchpad said:

Hello Herophiles! 

I'm working on converting some characters over to Hero and got snagged on an idea that I thought best to consult the Hive Mind of Heroism. 

 

In the original system, there's an ability called "Takedown" which states:

 

 

I'm looking to emulate something similar in Hero terms. So I was thinking of something like:

 

 

The amount of damage could be increased, of course, and the radius may be increased, but should stay within the character's normal movement ability. 

 

Anything I should add? Take away? Rebuild? 

Have you considered just using Multiple-Attacks? Multiple-Attacks:

• take a full phase. You can reduce that to half a phase if you buy Rapid Attack at 5 points (or 10 points for both melee and ranged attack)
• impose a -2 OCV penalty per extra target. Based on Offensive Penalty Skill Level you could buy this off at 2 points per +1 OCV
• puts you at ½ DCV but you can also improve that by buying Defensive Penalty Skill Level at 2 points per +1
• The multiple attacks sequence stop if you miss your roll. What you suggest is even more constraining so it could be worth an extra limitation

So for no points at all, you could use Multiple Attacks, or if you want to be better at it, yoy could pay to improve your abilities.

Say this is only for melee attacks. 

Clear the Room (½ phase HTH multiple attacks sequence , +6 vs OCV and DCV penalties); Rapid Attack-HTH (5AP), OPSL +6 (12AP), DPSL +6 (12AP) Total 29 points

 

Using any of your HTH attack, you can attack 3 agents at no penalty as long as you don't miss and at extra -2 OCV per target if you try to go for more target. If you insist on having the sequence stopped if you do not incapacitate a target, I would call that an extra -½ limitation for a final cost of 19 points.

 

The drawback is that it would cost you more END to complete than your proposed build unless your attack(s) are not too onerous on END.

 

[Sketchpad]

5 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I like the build. I agree with Doc about the NCC limitation.  However the only versus agent limitation seems a little cheesy. I’m thinking the agents themselves should have a physical complication: takes x1 1/2  from Heroes!

 

Hmm... that's an interesting idea, Ninja-Bear. It would be a neat way of making agents more vulnerable to heroic attacks and cause them to fold. Maybe that could be a campaign rule.

 

4 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

Have you considered just using Multiple-Attacks? Multiple-Attacks:

• take a full phase. You can reduce that to half a phase if you buy Rapid Attack at 5 points (or 10 points for both melee and ranged attack)
• impose a -2 OCV penalty per extra target. Based on Offensive Penalty Skill Level you could buy this off at 2 points per +1 OCV
• puts you at ½ DCV but you can also improve that by buying Defensive Penalty Skill Level at 2 points per +1
• The multiple attacks sequence stop if you miss your roll. What you suggest is even more constraining so it could be worth an extra limitation

So for no points at all, you could use Multiple Attacks, or if you want to be better at it, yoy could pay to improve your abilities.

Say this is only for melee attacks. 

Clear the Room (½ phase HTH multiple attacks sequence , +6 vs OCV and DCV penalties); Rapid Attack-HTH (5AP), OPSL +6 (12AP), DPSL +6 (12AP) Total 29 points

 

Using any of your HTH attack, you can attack 3 agents at no penalty as long as you don't miss and at extra -2 OCV per target if you try to go for more target. If you insist on having the sequence stopped if you do not incapacitate a target, I would call that an extra -½ limitation for a final cost of 19 points.

 

The drawback is that it would cost you more END to complete than your proposed build unless your attack(s) are not too onerous on END.

 

 

DreadDomain, you know, it's funny as, after I posted this, I was looking over those rules a bit more. This might also be a great way emulate what I'm looking for. I might also suggest a 0 END advantage on STR for characters that would use this. 

[DreadDomain]

22 minutes ago, Sketchpad said:

I might also suggest a 0 END advantage on STR for characters that would use this. 

Oh the possibilities...