Why NOT use a multipower for magic?

[pawsplay]

"What you can do with 60 points in a Multipower" needs to be compared to what else you could do with those points. You could spend 60 points on optimizing Martial Grab. You could spend all your points on ECDV and stabbing people with a stiletto. You could own a fortress. Oh, wait, you're setting reasonable limits on the Martial Grabber? Well, then there are limits on magic spells, too.

Honestly, the last magic system I wrote was based on the observation most fictional wizards had just a few "spells" they used regularly. Like, does Jafar do anything but disguises, hypnotism, and turning into a snake? And I was aiming for a swords-and-sorcery feel, albeit with fairly powerful PC wizards. So I required very heavy Limitations, and every spell had to be custom built and approved.

But I did use Multipowers. Three Symbols of Binding. Apprentice's Prestidigitation. Basically, multifunction spells.

 

But going the other way, if you are running something like Robert Asprin's Myth stories, or the Circle of Magic, and things like that, Multipowers make a lot of sense. You don't have magical earthquakes and mental paralysis and turning into an air elemental all in the same Multipower. Powers are more personal, ephemeral, tightly themed, and consistent across characters. Characters are a little bit more like supers, but also like sci-fi psychics. And also like characters in high adventure series like the D&D cartoon or Fairy Tale or the movie Willow.

[massey]

For a PC character, you've got Fladnag the wizard.  He's an okay warrior, definitely a secondary fighter in the party.  He took a bunch of odd skills that nobody else has (ancient lore and the like).  He's also got LS: Aging.  He looks really old, but he still moves like a much younger man (in other words, he moves like a guy who has his own stats).  Fladnag has a bunch of Contacts from people you normally can't get Contacts with.  Elf kings, treants, wood sprites, etc.  He's also got Danger Sense, Discriminatory, only versus magical and/or ancient things.  And he's got KS: "Stuff I made my danger sense roll about".  So when a giant fire demon appears, he can be like "that's a giant fire demon, we should all run."

 

He's got a handful of low tier magic spells, including some Talents that he buys with Costs End and Requires a Skill Roll (Eidetic Memory, Bump of Direction).  He's got a really high Presence and Ego.  He might also have several heavily limited magic spells that well exceed the normal campaign limits that he's cleared with the GM ahead of time.  30D6 Dispel vs mental powers, limited range 4", OAF staff, 1 charge, recovers once a week, costs end, x5 endurance.  "Be free from this foul spell!!!"  Again, each of these are limited enough that they probably wouldn't all fit in the same multipower.  It's probably cheaper to buy them separately.

 

Later in the game, he buys Follower: Cool magic horse.  At the end of the campaign, he reveals that he had a cool magic ring the whole time, but he doesn't tell anybody what it does or when he got it.

 

I think this would be a perfectly playable character, and would not require you to write down every spell in some Magic Compendium game book.

[Ninja-Bear]

5 hours ago, Spence said:

I've been following this thread and I have to say, you're not discussing the rules or balance. 

 

You are discussing setting/genre convention preferences as if they were rules.  This with a heavy dose of D&D class restrictions.

 

Sorry Spence but nope this isn’t the argument. The argument is as old on the boards since I was lurking (about 2013 ish) is that for the point expenditure, warriors invest less and get a better deal than wizards. And while we’re at it, can Hero do non class games? Yes. How many times does that come up as actual game question on the boards? Not many. 

[LoneWolf]

Looking at the guidelines in the book a standard heroic campaign has an active point range of between 15 and 50.  So a 45 point power while near the upper end is still within guidelines.

 

Spells can be pushed just as easily as STR can.  In fact since pushing in a heroic campaign usually requires and ego roll the wizard probably has a better chance and will get more out of pushing than a warrior.  Likewise a haymaker can also be used with spells.  The book even gives some clarification on some unusual haymakers including drains, entangles, flashes and mental powers.  Last of all there is nothing preventing a wizard form purchasing a martial art.  While it may not fit all concepts a wizard purchasing a defensive martial art is actually a very good investment of points.

 

While specific GM’s may have house rules that alter the way powers work,  unless you know exactly what they are it is impossible to factor those into a discussion.  When I post on the forums I assume unless otherwise stated that the rules are being used unmodified.    

 

Some of the things you are saying were true in previous editions, but not in 6 h editions.  Personally I think they did an excellent job on the 6^th edition and it improved the game tremendously.  This is also coming from someone who has played every edition on hero system all the way back to the first edition of champions. 

[Spence]

2 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Sorry Spence but nope this isn’t the argument. The argument is as old on the boards since I was lurking (about 2013 ish) is that for the point expenditure, warriors invest less and get a better deal than wizards. And while we’re at it, can Hero do non class games? Yes. How many times does that come up as actual game question on the boards? Not many. 

 

Well, I'm not in the actual conversation and am just reading through. 

 

And while I can see each poster determinedly entrenched and defending their positions, they are talking past each other and using setting preference to establish the MP rules as good or broken.

 

Maybe it is my perception that is missing it. 

But that is what I see. 

But I will leave the thread because I don't have anything constructive to add

[LoneWolf]

Ok here is a sample starting 175pt wizard using a multipower for magic.   This is actually based on a character of mine.  He is fresh out of the academia and has no real world experience.    

 

His tactics are fairly simple If the opponent is to close he aborts to a defensive action (turning desolid) and brings up his defenses.  After that he tries and gets some distance.  His first attack spell is usually either confusion (Drain INT) or Ray of Paralysis (Entangle).

 

I am not saying he is impossible to beat, but it is going to take a starting character some work. 

Sample Wizard.pdf

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

You piled together a bunch of abusive constructs with zero thematic unity beyond "WIZARD".  The Multipower would be the least of my concerns if you submitted that abomination to my game. 

[Chris Goodwin]

He has no Complications. 

 

He has no background.

 

He has five blank KS's.  Presumably these are related to his magic, but... what are they?

 

How did he learn his spells, and from whom?  

 

None of his spells are named.  They need to be.  

 

What are the GM's parameters for the magic system? 

 

What is his OAF?

 

How did he learn his martial arts while studying magic?

 

Just because it says in the book that ACV: OMCV vs DCV is +0, doesn't make it so in all games.  In fact, ACV has a warning sign by it, and this... "character" looks to be the poster child for why.  What is the in-universe rationale for all of his attacks using OMCV to target?

 

The fact that you can write all of this down on a character sheet and get the numbers to add up, by no means makes this a character.  I would not accept this submission for any Fantasy Hero game I were to run, even if the character were not only book legal, but my-guidelines legal.  

[pawsplay]

2 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Ok here is a sample starting 175pt wizard using a multipower for magic.   This is actually based on a character of mine.  He is fresh out of the academia and has no real world experience.    

 

His tactics are fairly simple If the opponent is to close he aborts to a defensive action (turning desolid) and brings up his defenses.  After that he tries and gets some distance.  His first attack spell is usually either confusion (Drain INT) or Ray of Paralysis (Entangle).

 

I am not saying he is impossible to beat, but it is going to take a starting character some work. 

Sample Wizard.pdf 79.49 kB · 7 downloads

 

So I guess he walks around with Desolidification as his active slot and his OAF in hand? I guess that's okay, providing no other opponents act after his attacks. It seems like the very first thing that's going to happen in is someone is going to take out his OAF. So if this is supposed to be abusive, I guess so be it, but there are some notable weak points here.

As a GM, the thing that strikes me is that most of his spells don't have enough Limitations. Honestly, a vanilla Desolidification with a skill roll is kind of iffy to me, although I concede it's a valid construct in some magic. But this pretty much exemplifies what not to do with a Multipower. The slots don't have a lot of thematic relationships, and the powers individually are questionable as spells. I mean, some of them are questionable as powers, but that's a whole other issue. Even for a Champions game I would be giving a Multipower like this the dirty eyeball. Like that RKA, what is that? And is the ray of paralysis really a valid construct? If it's literally shooting at people, I don't buy OMCV against DCV. And although his OCMV is pretty high, I think Martial Dodge and the like is going to make it hard to hand some hits.

And is this really a character fresh out of academic? Because he seems like a duelist, or a killer magical robot. He doesn't seem to have any other useful skills, and he's a blank slate as far as Complications and such go. All of his powers seemed focused around highly efficient power constructs. Can he light a dark room? Levitate an object? Sadly, no, but he can walk through walls of any DEF, mind control people, and shoot people.

I think you could take those same 45+ points and attach it to an archer who will shoot first and kill this guy. So while I don't like this build, it's not particularly worse than other bad ways to spend those points.

[massey]

Good lord you guys freak out over nothing.  I'm sorry, but that is not a powerful character at all.  That's a dead man walking.  He's got a bunch of attacks, most of which aren't powerful enough to stop an opposing character.  And when he takes his action, that means he can't raise his defenses that segment because he can no longer abort to Desolid.

 

Phase 12, Dex/Ego 18 -- Example Mage character shoots at Ragnar the Skull****er with his 4 1/2D6 Mental Blast.  He has to make his 14- skill roll.  He succeeds.  He then rolls ECV 6 vs Ragnar's ECV of 3.  He hits.  Ragnar takes 4 1/2D6 damage with no defenses.  Example Mage rolls 16 Stun.  Ragnar has a 20 Con.

 

Phase 12, Dex 15 -- Ragnar the Skull****er goes.  He charges forward and smashes the wand out of Example Mage's hand.  Ragnar's 10 OCV with his battle axe and a -2 for disarm means he needs a 13-.  Ragnar hits.  He rolls 3D6+1 HKA to determine Body for the disarm (that's his axe damage).  Example Mage holds on with a 10 Str.  Ragnar disarms the mage.

 

Phase 3, Dex 15 -- Ragnar goes again.  Example Mage has no powers and can only abort to dodge.  Ragnar needs a 10- to hit Example Mage when he's Martial Dodging.  Example Mage has 3 rPD and nothing else.  How long can he dodge Ragnar's axe?  Ragnar is a 4 Speed.  Example Mage is only a 3.

 

 

You guys are really worried about this character?  What's he going to do when there are 3 or 4 orcs standing there with bows?  You think one can't run over there and grab him?  All his stuff has gestures and incantations on it.

 

As far as him lacking complications (or even a name), this is obviously not a complete character.  It's a proof of concept example build.  It's not supposed to be complete.

[Chris Goodwin]

17 minutes ago, massey said:

As far as him lacking complications (or even a name), this is obviously not a complete character.  It's a proof of concept example build.  It's not supposed to be complete.

 

Anyone can make a list of abusive abilities.  That doesn't prove anything about what might happen in an actual game.  

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

1 hour ago, massey said:

You guys are really worried about this character?

I'd be worried about some of the parts, things I feel to be abusive in a vacuum and would request the player change regardless of the rest of the sheet. 

I'd be worried about how the parts were put together, aspects of the design process that indicate to me a focus on degenerate WAAC munchkinery. 

I wouldn't be worried at all about the sum of the parts.  Any idiot GM can beat a character.  I did your analysis and more in the time it took to skim the sheet. 

I'd be worried about what the sum of the parts said about the player who brought it to a game. 

[LoneWolf]

I put the character together in 5 minutes to prove a point.  The point is not that the character cannot be defeated, but rather that the character cannot simply be taken out before he can even act.  That has been my whole point all along.  It was never designed as a fully functional character designed to be played. If I were actually going to use the character I would probably replace a couple of the spells with utility spells in the beginning and use experience to purchase the rest of the attack spells

 

As for his spells having a theme he is pretty much a mental mage specializing in mind magic.  The special effect of the desolidification is a turning into an astral form.  The blast is a telekinetic blast.  Most of the spell target DCV as not to be too abusive.  I could have easily dropped them down a little and targeted DMCV making them a lot harder to defend against. 

 

It would not take much experience before the character would be able to handle just about anything.  For 1 point I can have 9d6 telepathy, which makes getting information from the enemies a snap.  For another point I can clairsentience with a range of 2,400 which allows me to safely scout a huge area.   Another point gives me shapeshift with the ability to disguise myself as any humanoid form.  Those type of spells can actually be more of a problem than the combat spells.  For just a few point I can do a better job at almost anything that a character who purchased the right skills. 

[pawsplay]

"I am but a humble seller of wares."

"Why are you holding a wand with a skull on it?"

"Uh, family heirloom?"

"Is it for sale?"

"NO TOUCHIE."

 

Also your 1 point Telepathy isn't going to do a lot without Mind Scan.

 

I don't think you've proven Multipower is broken or abusive. It has tradeoffs. It's appropriate for some systems of magic, and inappropriate for others. It has a limited role in some systems of magic, and a common role in others. I wouldn't allow the Desolidification in the same multipower as mind control unless the campaign style was "kind of comic book style wizardry, with no discernible schools or magical traditions, and also all bets are off with the custom katana talents." Like in what conception does someone shift their powers between being desolid and reading minds? Saying "it's astral form" doesn't really cut it when that isn't like any astral form I've seen. Even in D&D that would be ethereal form, not astral form, and it has nothing to do with mind control.

[massey]

I don't have any problem with cramming seemingly unrelated powers into a Multipower.  "Magic spells" is good enough for me.  I'm the guy who puts a "movement multipower" on almost every one of his characters.  The Multipower pool itself doesn't have to have a defined special effect.  It's purely a game mechanic.  Multipower with ultra slots means I can only do one thing at a time, and so I get a cost break.  That's the balancing aspect.

 

Like you could have a Batman build where he has a Multipower where one slot is punch, one is kick, one is nerve strike, one is batarang, one is smoke pellet, one is grappling hook, one is spread cape wide and cast spooky shadow, one is retrocognition "crime scene analysis", and one is Summon batmobile.  The important part is that you can only do one thing at a time.

 

I'm also not persuaded that the chosen special effect doesn't look like spells from other games.  The whole point of the Hero System is that you can make the power look and function the way you want it to.  "That's not how it works in D&D" doesn't matter.

[Chris Goodwin]

1 hour ago, massey said:

I don't have any problem with cramming seemingly unrelated powers into a Multipower.  "Magic spells" is good enough for me.  I'm the guy who puts a "movement multipower" on almost every one of his characters.  The Multipower pool itself doesn't have to have a defined special effect.  It's purely a game mechanic.  Multipower with ultra slots means I can only do one thing at a time, and so I get a cost break.  That's the balancing aspect.

 

Excuse me?   Since when?  

 

Not In My Game You Don't. 

 

1 hour ago, massey said:

I'm also not persuaded that the chosen special effect doesn't look like spells from other games.  The whole point of the Hero System is that you can make the power look and function the way you want it to.  "That's not how it works in D&D" doesn't matter.

 

Fantasy Hero leaves more of the magic system design up to the GM.  The GM does get to say, "That's not how it works in my world."  

 

Frameworks have, as far as I can tell, always been intended to be a grouping of powers related to special effect or theme.  For historical reasons, Fantasy Hero has tended to discourage the use of Frameworks, but as with anything, it's up to the GM.  Multipower is a ⚠️ construct still.

[massey]

1 minute ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

Excuse me?   Since when?  

 

Not In My Game You Don't. 

 

 

Fantasy Hero leaves more of the magic system design up to the GM.  The GM does get to say, "That's not how it works in my world."  

 

Frameworks have, as far as I can tell, always been intended to be a grouping of powers related to special effect or theme.  For historical reasons, Fantasy Hero has tended to discourage the use of Frameworks, but as with anything, it's up to the GM.  Multipower is a ⚠️ construct still.

 

Everything is up to the GM.  I can say that no one can purchase more than a 10 Str if I'm the GM.

 

Multipowers have never required a unifying theme.  Elemental Controls did.  Multipowers never have.

[Chris Goodwin]

3 minutes ago, massey said:

 

Everything is up to the GM.  I can say that no one can purchase more than a 10 Str if I'm the GM.

 

Multipower has a ⚠️.  Further,  it is explicitly stated that Frameworks are most appropriate for superheroic games (6e1 p. 398).  

 

3 minutes ago, massey said:

 

Multipowers have never required a unifying theme.  Elemental Controls did.  Multipowers never have.

 

I'll admit that it never says it explicitly.   However, I can't recall a single published instance of a Multipower that wasn't based around a unifying theme or special effect -- I'm specifying published here because "list of random powers I threw together under a Multipower" doesn't count for these purposes.  And I can find explicit verbiage that recommends, in heroic campaigns, Multipower be used to represent a device or piece of equipment with multiple settings (ibid).  

 

GM says no; the noes have it.

[Doc Democracy]

Have been following and while my instinctive response to Massey's statement about underlying theme was "really??!" but thinking about it, the mechanics of the system do not support an underlying theme.  If you drain a slot, other slots are not drained, unlike Elemental Controls (or unified powers).

 

Doc

[Panpiper]

On 5/19/2020 at 3:32 PM, Doc Democracy said:

Have been following and while my instinctive response to Massey's statement about underlying theme was "really??!" but thinking about it, the mechanics of the system do not support an underlying theme.  If you drain a slot, other slots are not drained, unlike Elemental Controls (or unified powers).

 

The character I am currently playing has a flight multipower (one slot for combat flight, the other for much faster non-combat). It was my GM's advice for me to put 'unified power' on it for a -1/4 limitation. Makes perfect sense. If someone drains her combat flight, it would be quite ridiculous for her to be able to save herself by going supersonic.

 

[Doc Democracy]

26 minutes ago, Panpiper said:

 

The character I am currently playing has a flight multipower (one slot for combat flight, the other for much faster non-combat). It was my GM's advice for me to put 'unified power' on it for a -1/4 limitation. Makes perfect sense. If someone drains her combat flight, it would be quite ridiculous for her to be able to save herself by going supersonic.

Ishtar Ninurte.pdf 315.59 kB · 2 downloads

 

Yup, you added it, got a discount for it.  All I was saying was that the multipower did not have that requirement, it needed a disadvantage to create that "unified-ness" because that fitted the power you were designing.

[massey]

1 hour ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

GM says no; the noes have it.

 

Why do you operate under the assumption that you are the GM?  You are not my GM.  I have never met you.

[Chris Goodwin]

26 minutes ago, massey said:

 

Why do you operate under the assumption that you are the GM?  You are not my GM.  I have never met you.

 

I'm operating under the assumption that there is a GM, and that they've looked over the things they're advised to, like for instance Multipowers, and especially Multipowers in a Fantasy Hero game.

 

The GM will create the magic system for their Fantasy Hero game, as is generally considered the default assumption for Fantasy Hero.  And we're in the Fantasy Hero board right now, so.

 

Multipowers are not the default assumption for a heroic, e.g. a Fantasy Hero, game.  If a GM wants to allow them, great!  They can.  But there are good reasons not to.  6e1 p. 398 recommends against.  Fantasy Hero 6e p. 267 gives the GM things to think about when deciding whether or not to.  

Yes, a Multipower full of "eff you" abilities can be abusive.  That's why we have a GM.  We can go on all day about perfectly spherical game constructs of uniform temperature and density, but none of it matters until and unless it's going into a game, with a GM.  I don't see the fact that someone can write down a list of abusive abilities on a character sheet, and get the math to add up, as a problem, because I assume that at some point in the process there's a GM.  

[Duke Bushido]

23 hours ago, Spence said:

And while I can see each poster determinedly entrenched and defending their positions, they are talking past each other and using setting preference to establish the MP rules as good or broken.

 

 

Every

single

time.

 

 

Seriously:  Like Ninja-Bear said, this doesn't come up _a lot_, but it does come up, and every single time, it goes exactly like this thread.

 

 

[LoneWolf]

I have seen plenty of multipower defined as random gadgets.  How is that any different than a multipower defined as spells?  Both have about as much in common as the other and spells may even have more in common the gadget pool.