Why NOT use a multipower for magic?

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

30 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

I have seen plenty of multipower defined as random gadgets.  How is that any different than a multipower defined as spells?  Both have about as much in common as the other and spells may even have more in common the gadget pool.

It's no different.  I hate them both. 

[Chris Goodwin]

The other side of "just spend one XP on a new spell" is, how are you learning the spell?  How does the magic system you're playing under handle learning a new spell?

 

Do wizards in this world freely trade spells with one another, or are they extremely jealous and guarded?  Can you learn spells by being taught, or do you need to read them from a scroll or someone else's spellbook?  Do you need to research them yourself, which might require access to a library, a laboratory, mystical reagents, and so on?  Or is there some other method?  

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

32 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

The other side of "just spend one XP on a new spell" is, how are you learning the spell?  How does the magic system you're playing under handle learning a new spell?

 

Do wizards in this world freely trade spells with one another, or are they extremely jealous and guarded?  Can you learn spells by being taught, or do you need to read them from a scroll or someone else's spellbook?  Do you need to research them yourself, which might require access to a library, a laboratory, mystical reagents, and so on?  Or is there some other method?  

That has nothing to do with Multipowers though.  That's just throwing obstacles in the way of players spending the XP they earned. 

[pawsplay]

You say "throwing obstacles in the way of players spending the XP they earned" as if that is not one of the central pillars of the Hero System.

[Chris Goodwin]

56 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

That has nothing to do with Multipowers though.  That's just throwing obstacles in the way of players spending the XP they earned. 

 

Granted.  The same applies without a Multipower. 

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

13 minutes ago, pawsplay said:

You say "throwing obstacles in the way of players spending the XP they earned" as if that is not one of the central pillars of the Hero System.

What?

FRED has a section on being an ***hole to players you didn't get involved by awarding XP differently, but the only advice on spending XP is "Not during an adventure, and look XP expenditure over the same way you would character creation because it's the same thing really". 

[pawsplay]

3 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

I have seen plenty of multipower defined as random gadgets.  How is that any different than a multipower defined as spells?  Both have about as much in common as the other and spells may even have more in common the gadget pool.

 

It isn't any different. The point of the random gadget multipower is to be enabling.  The point of not allowing a multipower for spells is not to be enabling. Gadget multipowers make sense if you want characters to have a bag of gadgets they can use one at a time. Multipower spells make sense if you want to have characters able to use a variety of spells, one at a time.

There are several main issues with spell Multipowers, even before you get into thematics. First, a battle with a mage on each side can quickly turn into Calvinball. That is, they start spitballing increasingly bizarre spell constructs at each other until someone rolls poorly or someone hits about the situationally useful spell construct. Second, spells can be had cheap. While that is not inherently gamebreaking, it's annoying. A character built around such shenanigans can trivialize a greater number of obstacles and can step on more toes. Third, character complexity shoots through the roof. A twenty-slot Multipower is not a joy in play. Fourth, every single slot needs to be vetted as its own power.

I'm not going to belabor thematics. I don't like magic to be too "easy" in the first place. Putting a bunch of easy spells into a framework that makes things easy is not something I find appealing. I don't want to run a game where a character goes, oh, I switch to this slot and cast this spell. Then I switch and cast this spell. With every spell being basically a weapon, a can opener, or a frustrating defense. Even comic book mages like Doctor Strange don't work this way. He has dozens of commonly used spells, but similar spells have similar limitations. Some of his magic requires his Orb. Some of it is personal magic, some of it is dimensional.

As far as thematics, the Multipower system leaves very little room for ritual magic.

I'm not saying the Multipower-of-whatever-spells system is wrong, I just think it has significant gameplay and thematic drawbacks. If you are going to allow a bunch of versatile super-mages as PCs, I think that does raise some questions about what else do you allow. Why shouldn't the fighter have a magical Multipower as well? What if someone wants to play a frost giant? Can the deceptive rogue have PRE 30? If you want to run a game where the PCs are fairly unlimited characters who can steamroller over a bunch of challenges before eventually succumbing to their inherent weaknesses, you certainly can.

In general, a Multipower that is unlimited in scope is just less magical, and hence less desirable to me.

[pawsplay]

4 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

What?

FRED has a section on being an ***hole to players you didn't get involved by awarding XP differently, but the only advice on spending XP is "Not during an adventure, and look XP expenditure over the same way you would character creation because it's the same thing really". 

 

So what I hear is, I can play a character who has a laser pistol.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

1 minute ago, pawsplay said:

So what I hear is, I can play a character who has a laser pistol.

7 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

What?

FRED has a section on being an ***hole to players you didn't get involved by awarding XP differently, but the only advice on spending XP is "Not during an adventure, and look XP expenditure over the same way you would character creation because it's the same thing really". 

 

[pawsplay]

Are you suggesting spell selection isn't the purview of the GM during character creation?

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

Just now, pawsplay said:

Are you suggesting spell selection isn't the purview of the GM during character creation?

Do you have a point?  You don't seem to be making one. 

[Chris Goodwin]

Those are the same kinds of questions I'd ask a spellcaster at character creation, in Fantasy Hero.  I'd probably have a lot of the answers built into the magic systems.  

 

Part of "not D&D" means, no "level up" powers.  You don't get to freely spend XP willy nilly.  In fact that also goes for most of the Champions games I've ever played.

 

Fantasy Hero is GM driven in a way that Champions really isn't.

[pawsplay]

"How and why did you learn that spell?" is equivalent to "How and why do you have a laser pistol?" No, you cannot just spend an experience point and learn any old spell. When your character was created, all their spells have a stated or implied origin in your character's magical training. That doesn't disappear just because you have an experience point. Further, if spells are supposed to be something that are hard to learn, you aren't necessarily entitled to spend those points willy-nilly. Learning a new spell every other month might be unreasonable. Just because you have points to spend on a Follower doesn't mean you can suddenly acquire a squire while traveling through the desert. You might be able to, but you have to justify it.

[Chris Goodwin]

I'm out of rep for today, but Pawsplay, you and I are on the same wavelength.

[Chris Goodwin]

3 minutes ago, pawsplay said:

"How and why did you learn that spell?" is equivalent to "How and why do you have a laser pistol?" No, you cannot just spend an experience point and learn any old spell. When your character was created, all their spells have a stated or implied origin in your character's magical training. That doesn't disappear just because you have an experience point. Further, if spells are supposed to be something that are hard to learn, you aren't necessarily entitled to spend those points willy-nilly. Learning a new spell every other month might be unreasonable. Just because you have points to spend on a Follower doesn't mean you can suddenly acquire a squire while traveling through the desert. You might be able to, but you have to justify it.

 

Also, all of this is true with or without magic (or not magic) Multipowers.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

Nevermind

[Ninja-Bear]

On 5/19/2020 at 9:05 AM, LoneWolf said:

I put the character together in 5 minutes to prove a point.  The point is not that the character cannot be defeated, but rather that the character cannot simply be taken out before he can even act.  That has been my whole point all along. 

If that was your point then I apologize cause I didn’t see that.  And on that point I do agree with you. What I’m saying is though even with the MP look how many points you are spending to be that effective. Forgive me but my numbers won’t be exact. (Woke up) You have roughly 23 points in MP with Base and all the slots. Now add in the increase of OMCV because he’s a mentalist (that’s fair)  and  the increase in INT so that another 23 ish points.  I think at this point, the wizard is roughly as powerful as a pure fighter with no MP. So I think you really proved my point. Depending on the game, a magic user should have spells which are better than someone with skills. You just showed that with a MP your magic user can have a varied spell list.  Btw check number 6, I don’t think it’s built the way you intended. NND and defense is ED? Everyone has ED. Did you mean rED or POW DEF? ( that’s what’s in 6th sample power.) Your sample guy with the point savings for a more rounded character (which I’m still talking about) could use less slots and invest those points in Scholar skills making them 2pts and or other skills.  Here’s another point why did use the Scholar skill modifier? I mean that saves points right?  Why isn’t he paying full cost for skills?

[Ninja-Bear]

The two characters I would suggest to look at Darien the Bold and Blekar the wizard. They are sample characters in Fred, also in the download section in the Genre by Genre (still 5th) and in 6th vol.2. 

[Ninja-Bear]

One thing that hasn’t been brought up is if we are building characters in 6th ed then the warrior loses some advantage as there are no more figured characteristics.  The argument pre 6th is that warriors buy up characteristics that they should have and get free points in the process and the wizard is paying full points for every thing.

[pawsplay]

On the other hand, buying SPD 4 and enough OCV and CSLs to hit has never been more straightforward.

[Scott Ruggels]

17 hours ago, pawsplay said:

 

So what I hear is, I can play a character who has a laser pistol.

Well, you could, but, the GM (me) would probably disallow it. 

[Scott Ruggels]

14 minutes ago, pawsplay said:

On the other hand, buying SPD 4 and enough OCV and CSLs to hit has never been more straightforward.

Why I don’t play magic users usually.  Add levels, dex, skills,and knowledge skills, so my warrior remains fresh. XD. 

[Panpiper]

11 minutes ago, pawsplay said:

On the other hand, buying SPD 4 and enough OCV and CSLs to hit has never been more straightforward.

 

?

 

Er... Buying speed and OCV/DCV is now VASTLY more expensive/difficult. One could contest that point levels have increased to compensate, but I have not seen a single campaign yet personally where that is actually true. In fact in the last few years, I have generally been surprised by campaign limits being ever more stringent. Strength/characteristics based characters have been massively neutered relative to powers and such, whose points costs remained unchanged. (Can you tell I am not much of a fan of 6th edition?)

[Ninja-Bear]

Well just rename Laser pistol to magic wand and you’re good to go! 😁

[massey]

Multipowers give you versatility at the expense of raw power.  You get more moves, but each move is less effective overall.  They do allow you to take a grab-bag of situational powers that are really useful in certain circumstances, and that's cool.  But as far as raw effect goes, they aren't efficient.

 

Player 1 has 65 points to spend.  He buys a 50 point Multipower and 3 ultra slots.  10D6 Energy Blast, 10D6 Flash vs Sight, 3D6+1 RKA.  He's got some good all around moves, an attack for every situation.

 

Player 2 has 65 points to spend.  He buys a 13D6 Energy Blast.  He has one move, and it's really good.  His one move is better than any move Player 1 has.

 

Now what about campaign limits?  Doesn't matter unless Player 1 can also hit every campaign limit.  Because even if Player 2 is limited to 10 dice, that just means he's got 15 points to spend elsewhere.  Maybe he buys +2 OCV with his Energy Blast and +1 Speed (and an extra Stun or something).  Player 2 still gets to be much more effective with his one trick.