OCV/DCV ranges for starting characters.

[Panpiper]

Back in the days of 5th edition and earlier, I had a clear understanding that an OCV/DCV of 8 each was the effective average for a starting 250 point character without added skill levels, which starting characters would usually not 'start' with. With the complete redesign of the point system for stats in 6e however, I no longer have the slightest clue what the 'average' OCV/DCV is for a similar 300 point (for 6e) starting superhero. Might one or a few weigh in to give me their thoughts on the matter?

[assault]

I'd use the same benchmarks as for earlier editions.

 

Attacks tend to be the same. Defenses tend to be the same. Speeds tend to be the same. It makes sense for CVs to be the same, preserving the existing balance between characters.

[Ninja-Bear]

12 hours ago, assault said:

I'd use the same benchmarks as for earlier editions.

 

Attacks tend to be the same. Defenses tend to be the same. Speeds tend to be the same. It makes sense for CVs to be the same, preserving the existing balance between characters.

You can if you just want to use the older material as is. I’ve been mucking about with some of my older write ups and I was considering this question too. I came with around CV 7 and here’s why. With sixth divorcing CV from DEX you can have agents now with a DEX of 15 and still have only CV of 3. I lowered both DEX of my characters from 20 to 14 & 12 and still keep a OCV of 7. For me I figure if agents are OCV 3 and only one CSL that gives you an OCV 4 and DCV 3. If you figure a good spread of CV between agents and PCs is 3 then a DCV of 7 is rather good.

[Panpiper]

The problems is that I CANNOT create the same character in 6th edition with 300 points that I could in 5th with 250 points. Sixth edition is almost a completely different game with the changes to stats, with strength based characters, indeed 'stat' based characters massively nerfed. Some things have to get scaled back. The averages CANNOT stay the same. Suggested campaign ballparks enforced for 'balance' can be the same, sure, but that's not what I am talking about. What I am trying to get a handle on is applied stats that starting character 'actually' start at because of the new expense in stats, so I can have a clue whether my character will be deficient or not.

[Ninja-Bear]

2 hours ago, Panpiper said:

The problems is that I CANNOT create the same character in 6th edition with 300 points that I could in 5th with 250 points. Sixth edition is almost a completely different game with the changes to stats, with strength based characters, indeed 'stat' based characters massively nerfed. Some things have to get scaled back. The averages CANNOT stay the same. Suggested campaign ballparks enforced for 'balance' can be the same, sure, but that's not what I am talking about. What I am trying to get a handle on is applied stats that starting character 'actually' start at because of the new expense in stats, so I can have a clue whether my character will be deficient or not.

Not my experience. Most starting characters from 4th translate to close to 300 pts. What will throw you off is now Force field is folded under Resistant Defenses so active points went up. When I updated Neon (a blaster), he was made with an elemental control which is really cheap compared to unified limitation. Still though no understanding how your character is deficient or not. Deficient compared to whom? Yeah if you compare to book villains they might be cause in 6th, the villains are still written up the same old DEX and CVs that were pre 6th. That’s the one complaint about the latest edition they divorced the CV from DEX but no character has really taken advantage of it so as they are backwards compatible. Btw 6th considers 400 pts the new starting point however if 300 is too tight for you consider going up to 350 pts.

[Panpiper]

37 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Btw 6th considers 400 pts the new starting point...

 

That may then be my issue. 250 used to be the norm. Maybe 400 is now the norm, because that is what is necessary now with the stat changes to get the same effect as 250 earlier.

 

I'm focused on 300 at the moment because I am playing in someone else's game and we are playing 300 point supers (teens, the first generation of supers to exist). Take for instance the attached character (the one I am actually playing at the moment) built in 6th edition on 300 points. She has an OCV/DCV of 7 with a speed of 5. If I build the exact same character in 5th edition using 250 points and give her the exact same stats and powers 'except' OCV/DCV and speed, I can give the 250 point 5th edition version a speed of 6 and an OCV/DCV of 9/9! 

 

So yea, I think you do need 400 points in 6th to replicate the same heroes as one used to with 250 in 5th.  My confusion resulted from my assumption that 300 was the new norm. I guess an OCV/DCV speed of 7/7 5 is reasonably solid then for a 300 point character.

Ishtar Ninurte.pdf

[assault]

Converting from 5e is harder than converting from the previous editions, in my experience.

 

5e encouraged relatively large expenditures on skills, beyond those typical of 4e, for example. So there's a first hint.

 

Other than that, a lot depends on the particular character. For starters, none of this is an issue for NPCs, who have however many points are needed. So we are talking about PCs here. Starting PCs, to be more precise, rather than established ones who can reasonably expect to be grandfathered across to the new edition.

 

Another hint: take that extra 50 points and drop it straight into OCV and DCV. That will get you to 8 in each category without breaking a sweat. Things get trickier if you want more than that, obviously. If you want less, that's great - you've got extra points to play with.

 

Ego and the MCVs can be an issue. A non-mentalist character doesn't need to buy OMCV up, so don't do that. You can probably get away with not buying up DMCV either. In that case, the drop in price of EGO from 2 points to 1 is all gravy. If you really must, you can probably buy up a little DMCV with the savings instead. It might not be quite as high as your figured value, but that's life. So basically, for a non-mentalist, the change is neutral or favourable.

 

Similarly, Dex and Spd are cost neutral, once you allow for buying OCV and DCV separately. You can get away with dropping your Dex slightly in many cases, although a 23 Dex is still worth hanging on to. If your original Dex is over 28, drop it to 28. Values in between 23 and 28 (ie, 26) are a little awkward, but a slight drop won't usually hurt much. There are no Goodman numbers, so all you really get here is the ability to go first. Similarly, dropping from 20 to 18 is viable. If you want to go really nuts, drop your Dex right down, and buy lots of Lightning Reflexes. In fact, consider Lightning Reflexes in general, if you don't want to stick with the 18/23/29 breakpoints. So anyway, up to 8 CV, Dex and Spd are cost-neutral or slightly favourable.

 

Con is roughly cost neutral. You can get more or less the same values for the previously figured characteristics from the points you save from the lower cost of Con itself.

 

Body works out slightly in your favour, since the only previously figured characteristic from it is Stun, which has dropped in price.

 

Previously figured characteristics bought up directly are cheaper than they were.

 

The only real issues are with Str and CVs over 8.

 

The offsets I've listed can take a fair bit of the sting out of them, but you still might end up with lower values for the previously figured characteristics, or have to shave points elsewhere in the character to pay for them.

 

It's worthwhile thinking about how much Rec, End and Stun your character actually needs to function. You might find you that you don't quite need as much End as you would have got from your Con, for instance. In that case, you don't need to buy the excess.

 

Some characters will certainly have to be cut back - but not to the point of rendering them ineffective, if you put a bit of thought into it. And once you have done that thought, you can apply the same techniques to your future characters.

 

So that's why I suggest aiming for the same benchmarks. You don't really need to compromise them except at the margins.

[Ninja-Bear]

I’ll look at the character when I get a chance but the thing is not knowing what the GM expects doesn’t really help you that much. Yes things seem to have always defaulted to “Standard” campaign guides but even that is misleading as a GM is never beholden to use those guidelines.

[assault]

Looking at Ishtar Ninurte, I don't see the problem on the characteristic side. (I haven't looked at the powers in detail.)

 

She is paying a small excess for her characteristics over the extra 50 points, but not one big enough to make as huge a difference as you suggest, unless you are buying her CVs in a funny way under 5e.

 

 

[Panpiper]

2 minutes ago, assault said:

Looking at Ishtar Ninurte, I don't see the problem on the characteristic side.

 

It's not that there is a problem. I just don't know if I have over spent on OCV/DCV, if I am in line with what a balanced character should be, or if I am going to find she is deficient with OCV/DCV. I really have no clue. She is bought pretty clean. Nothing overly gratuitous, no "funny stuff". Everything passed GM scrutiny. The 'unified' limitation in her flight multipower was actually suggested by the GM (it replaced a bottom of phase activation for her flight).

[Ninja-Bear]

Panpiper what file did you use so that it came up as a PDF? Wondering so I can use the same file to share on the boards for those without HD. Thanks.

[Ninja-Bear]

The short answer is that if the GM vetted the character and the GM isn't pulling a fast one then your character should be good to go. 

[Panpiper]

I used the "DefaultPrintTemplate6e.hde" that is in my main HeroDesigner directory and did an Export/Preview Character. That opens it up in a browser window. From the browser with that preview displaying, I select Print. From print I have the option to save it as a PDF. Might sound a bit roundabout, but it takes seconds.

DefaultPrintTemplate6e.hde

[Ninja-Bear]

Thanks again!

[assault]

I personally wouldn't use that export template if you want to be able to check the numbers.

 

The result looks like a 5e character, and doesn't show the costs for OCV, DCV, OMCV and DMCV.

 

In other words, it took a minute of my oh-so-precious time to work out what was going on.

[Panpiper]

All the other formats I have seen are significantly worse when it comes to making a legible PDF, unless you go to an ultra bare bones listing of stats. Even those however ignore paragraphing in all the background text, making it illegible. Choosing between a crappy presentation and illegible background text or not listing costs for OCV/DCV, I'll take the later every time.

[assault]

It depends what you want it for.

 

If you are checking your numbers, you want the one with the numbers, and the background text doesn't matter.

 

Once you are sure the numbers add up, the background text is more important. This is the sheet you probably want to use in play.