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Absorption - Champs 4th Ed - CP's Absorbed


nedoking

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Good afternoon all - I'm new to the site... but been running CHAMPS 4th Ed for a loooong time.  Got hit with a question that I never thought about before....did a search... didn't see the answer.  I hope that this is the correct thread on which to post this question.

 

My question: When a PC uses Absorption, absorbs BODY and receives CP to apply to the power/stat - are the power limitations considered??

 

Example: BigGuy gets all of his powers from an OIF (-1/2).  His Absorption adds to his STR.  BigGuy gets hit and absorbs 10 CP.  Does this mean he can increase his STR by 10 (because STR is a 1:1 point buy) or 15 (because the -1/2 power disad can be applied)?

 

I had always interpreted the powers/stat would NOT consider the power disad.... "With this adjustment power the character may absorb the BODY damage of an attack and add that energy, as Character Points, to a specific power or characteristic".  Power Disads are not mentioned in the description or example.

 

Thank you for your time.

Edited by nedoking
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The official rules--

 

that is Champions 4e, Hero System Rulesbook 4e, HS Almanac 1 & 2 and Champions Deluxe (the one with the errata worked into the text) make absolutely _no_ mention of the effect that power Modifiers (neither Advantages nor Limitations) or Frameworks have on the amount of power you get.

 

Therefore, any answer other than "I don't know" is going to be unofficial.

 

My own unofficial answer, based on years of play testing, is based on a years-old requirement that my table rules be both fair and serve as counterdaviens  (Davien being a former player and such an absolute rules rapist that he thought the Harbinger of Justice was "too sloppy" with his points.   :rolleyes:  ).

 

The way we've done it, to prevent a repeat of the Davien Absorption Incident (which was very much like the Davien Transfer Incident, now that I think about it), was to rule that Advantages had to be counted for, while Limitations and Frameworks did not apply.

 

It sounds ugly, but at the end of the day, _any_ increase was undeniably an increase, meaning that you got solid utility out of your investment.

 

To explain the Davien incident, super-briefly:

 

Davien built an Absorption character who got _everything_ that wasn't his blank-character-sheet-stats and his "my-secret-ID-has-a-job" skills via "Only in HERO ID, which the book at that time suggested was a -1/2  and an IIF focus of a magic totem.  (Hey-- I was _co_- GM at the time; no way in Hell would I have approved that myself).

 

At any rate, he had his Absorption (and his Transfer) set up so that _some_ of the points went to "Ability X" while others went to additional dice of Absorption / Transfer and still others went to the "raise your limit by 2 for each additional point" pool.

 

Being as how he had gotten approval for _all_ of his abilities to for....  if I remember right, -3/4, and he ran all those points through those same Limitations.....

 

It was pretty gross, pretty quickly.

 

 

So yeah-- we decided very quickly that Limitations and Frameworks were not accounted for, but Advantages were.

 

 

Hope that helps.

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To give a bit of background,

 

I'm the player in Nedoking's campaign.  I am playing a stretchy-bouncy "Rubberband Man" archetype.  I'm looking to build a power called "Bounce."  

 

Here's how I built it

Bounce

8/20/20  PD Absorption to Superleap 4d6
-1.5 ALL Points fade after 1 Segment
 
3/6/5  Superleap
0.25 Trigger (uncontrollably stikes an object which does not take knockback)
-0.5 Linked to Absorption
-0.5 RSR: Breakfall
 
So, the question is, if I were to take 12 points of Body in Absorption, how far should I be able to bounce?
 
I want to say that Nedoking is an excellent GM.  Instead of telling me "no" outright, he said he'd take the time to think about it and he did.  When he was still uncertain after a week, he posted here.  
I'm going to go with whatever he decides, but I think that this discussion might benefit from presenting the real world build the question applies to.
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I'd'a thought so, too.

 

If it helps any further, it says "divide the adjust points by the Character points cost"  blah-blah to see how much of it you can buy.

 

On the entirety of p. 58 (BBB) it uses the term Active Points _once_, but not in any solidly-applicable way.  The examples given, however, all specify and demonstrate "Character Points," though they all avoid examples featuring any sort of Framework or Power Modifier.

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9 hours ago, Darkwing Duck said:

To give a bit of background,

 

I'm the player in Nedoking's campaign.  I am playing a stretchy-bouncy "Rubberband Man" archetype.  I'm looking to build a power called "Bounce."  

 

Here's how I built it

Bounce

8/20/20  PD Absorption to Superleap 4d6
-1.5 ALL Points fade after 1 Segment
 
3/6/5  Superleap
0.25 Trigger (uncontrollably stikes an object which does not take knockback)
-0.5 Linked to Absorption
-0.5 RSR: Breakfall
 
So, the question is, if I were to take 12 points of Body in Absorption, how far should I be able to bounce?
 
I want to say that Nedoking is an excellent GM.  Instead of telling me "no" outright, he said he'd take the time to think about it and he did.  When he was still uncertain after a week, he posted here.  
I'm going to go with whatever he decides, but I think that this discussion might benefit from presenting the real world build the question applies to.

 

First, I can never recall any question that Adjustment Powers worked against AP (affected by advantages and not limitations) so I am not sold that 4e is that unclear, but I am also not going to dig up the books.

 

Second, how is being Linked to Absorption in any way limiting?  Absorption does not shut off.  It is always there, waiting to Absorb some carelessly tossed energy.  Perhaps "only in segments where he has Absorbed points", and I would consider -1/2 for that, is the intent.  I'd consider a limitation that he has to use it, and the RSR applies only to determine whether he controls the bounce, or he sails off in some random direction.

 

Third, I think I would make that limitation "points fade after one use", not one segment.  If he bounces and strikes a second object, that would be another Absorb.

 

I would be more inclined to limit the Absorbption to require uncontrollably impacting a solid object than to put Trigger on the Superleap.

 

Finally, I have to wonder whether Superleap, limited to (or Triggered by) "only after striking a solid object that takes no Knockback" and perhaps "maximum 1"/1 BOD on impact" would be a more straightforward construct. It seems like the idea is that he bounces off, and he may be able to control which way he goes.  Couldn't he deliberately run into a wall?

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All - thank you very much for your feedback.  I like the suggestion made by Hugh Neilson - very clean.

One of the concerns that I have about the proposed "Bounce" power is that Darkwing (the player) has proposed that the "bounce" could potentially be an attack.

 

Example: BigGuy punches Rubberman and knocks him into a wall.  Rubberman makes his skill roll, bounces off the wall back towards BigGuy.  Should an attack be available to Rubberman? (i.e. Move Through, Standard Attack, etc).

 

Conceptually, it makes sense that this could be an attack as Rubberman is making a Skill Roll, trying to bounce back at his attacker, etc.

 

My concern is kinda like the one that Duke Bushido described - is this "unbalanced"?

 

Darkwing has proposed a series of three rolls to ensure that it stays balanced (1st being the Skill Roll, 2nd being able to successfully bounce in the right direction, 3rd being the attack roll to hit).

 

Does anyone have any thoughts to share?

 

 

Thank you.

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My thought is that he needs to put Trigger on a lot more than Movement to have a Triggered attack.  Otherwise, the best he can do is the same as "aiming Knockback" with base OCV against the target's full DCV and, on a hit, both targets take full impact damage (6e v2 p114).  If he also paid for Trigger on his STR and any other inclusions in the attack, a normal Move By or Move Through would be possible, but not just from triggered movement.

 

4th Ed, I think the rule was zero OCV, not base OCV, for an untargeted attack.  That makes a normal attack without paying the freight for Trigger on the attack powers an even bigger giveaway.

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