HERO for dummies

[BlueCloud2k2]

So I have a problem. My circle of friends down here only play d20. I've tried to get them to play Champions and it bombed horribly due to too many rules and "Counter-Intuitive Rules and Terms."

 

So I'm looking for ideas on how to d20-fy the HERO system without breaking out d20 Modern or Mutants and Masterminds (as I hate both with a fiery passion).

 

Some idea I had:

 

Change Attack Rolls to match d20 system: Roll 3d6 and add OCV; you hit if you roll higher than 10+DCV (The math works out the same both ways)

 

Change Skill Rolls in that the Base Bonus is equal to the Characteristic divided by 5; then add bonuses directly.

 

Example: Captain Quantum has and Intelligence Value of 25 and the SCI: Quantum Mechanics skill. He has paid the three base points to make it INT-based, and has put another 6 points into it for a +3 bonus. So his total Skill Bonus would be +8.

 

When making skill rolls, you roll 3d6, add your bonus, and you must beat the following to make your skill check:

 

Trivial: Don't Roll triple ones

Easy: 5+

Moderate Difficulty: 10+

Somewhat Difficult: 15+

Difficult: 20+

Hard: 25+

Very Hard: 30+

Impossible: 40+

 

When making a skill vs Skill check, both characters roll 3d6 and add their bonus; whoever gets the higher total wins.

 

Another example of "Counter-Intuitive Rules" is Strength vs Strength checks. My player was playing a Telekinetic and was using TK to try to lift Black Diamond and prevent her from moving with 40 TK STR. He got pissy when I told him to roll 8d6 and count the BODY pips, when Black Diamond got to roll 12d6. Needless to say she wasn't pinned, which made him even more pissy.

 

THIS is the cow-dung I have to put up with in my local players. Thus the need to "dumb-down" HERO.

 

Any ideas?

[Hyper-Man]

That might work but you run the risk of confusing yourself by having to convert so much.

 

Another approach might be to do heroic level game as an intro to the system.  Bonus if it could include both HTH and Ranged weapons (swords, knives, guns; maybe even tasers).  That removes most of the Powers and high dice issues with Supers/Champions.  Maybe something like MHI without the monsters (introducing those could blow things up by system comparison arguments). 

 

The Hero in 2 Pages document is your friend.

[Ndreare]

Have you considered roll20.net or some other virtual table top?

I have hada lot of luck playing with old friends online who moved away. No need to play if it is not fun.

[BlueCloud2k2]

I'm considering HeroCentral... but its not face to face.

 

Plus scheduling is a problem as I work 2AM to 7 AM except when I work midnight to 7 AM.

 

And I don't get but one night off.

[Chris Goodwin]

You could start by HERO-ifying d20.  The d20 SRD web page has some variant rules that you could use; specifically, bell curve rolls (using 3d6 instead of 1d20), vitality and wound points, armor as damage reduction, and hex grid for combat.  There's a section on magic that brings in spell points.  A section on building characters introduces traits and flaws, which can easily get them thinking about their characters' Complications.  Variant campaigning rules include Reputation, Contacts, and Codes of Honor.  

 

Most of these variants can also be used with Mutants & Masterminds, incidentally.

 

Elsewhere on the web, a guide to classless d20 can be found here.  And finally, RPGNow has a pdf on point-based D&D called Buy the Numbers.  

 

It may take a while and involve playing a lot of D&D, though.  But once you've done it you've almost got a D&D/Hero hybrid; getting your players switched over will be easier, and you'll be able to figure out where to tweak things as you go.  

 

Edit:  Found a list of links I put together trying to gather this for my own reference, here.

 

Edit edit:  And a thread at enworld on using only d6's with the d20 system.

[Ninja-Bear]

Curious Bluecloud how did your friend want the str to str work?

[Lucius]

You're not talking about Hero for Dummies. You're talking about Hero for people who have only ever played recent editions of D&D.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Hero for Palindromedaries

[Gary Miles]

/Another example of "Counter-Intuitive Rules" is Strength vs Strength checks. My player was playing a Telekinetic and was using TK to try to lift Black Diamond and prevent her from moving with 40 TK STR. He got pissy when I told him to roll 8d6 and count the BODY pips, when Black Diamond got to roll 12d6. Needless to say she wasn't pinned, which made him even more pissy.

Why would he get pissy? His TK is not as strong as Black Diamond's Strength. That's simple "physics" (so-to-speak). Nothing counter-intuitive about it.

 

It would be like him thinking that a character with 40 Strength should do more damage than a person with 60 Strength.

[Brother Jim]

I can kind of see the player's point though.

Why does it matter how strong a person is when trying to TK them?

What are they using their strength against?

 

But that might depend on how the TK got built.

[BlueCloud2k2]

Curious Bluecloud how did your friend want the str to str work?

 

He is of the opinion that is should be a Strength-based skill roll. Meaning a 3d6 roll where he would have a 19- chance of success and Black Diamond would have had only a 23- chance of success, since by the math his 40 TK STR would have had a +8 Modifier and BD's STR would have had a +12 Modifier.

 

Why would he get pissy? His TK is not as strong as Black Diamond's Strength. That's simple "physics" (so-to-speak). Nothing counter-intuitive about it.

 

It would be like him thinking that a character with 40 Strength should do more damage than a person with 60 Strength.

 

I've tried and tried to explain the exponential growth of STR that a person with 60 STR is 16 times stronger than someone with a STR of 40. He can't wrap his head around it.

 

I can kind of see the player's point though.

 

Why does it matter how strong a person is when trying to TK them?

 

What are they using their strength against?

 

 

 

But that might depend on how the TK got built.

TK specifically says someone is allowed a STR vs STR roll to break free. It basically functions as a grab or strike at range.

 

You're not talking about Hero for Dummies. You're talking about Hero for people who have only ever played recent editions of D&D.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Hero for Palindromedaries

He actually accused HERO as being less user-friendly than 2nd Edition DnD.

[Chris Goodwin]

There are some people who just want to find a reason to hate a new system.  If it weren't TK vs. STR that player would have found something else.  If you're running you could just not invite him back; if he doesn't enjoy the system then there's no reason he needs to be there spoiling it for everyone else.

 

Is there another player in the group who seemed more into it?  Could you get that player to help smooth out the rough parts of learning?  

[PaycheckHero]

I can kind of see the player's point though.

Why does it matter how strong a person is when trying to TK them?

What are they using their strength against?

 

But that might depend on how the TK got built.

 

Lots of people want TK to act like flight, usable against others.  The reason it doesn't and lets someone break free with strength is probably as much game balance and comic-book reality as logic--it keeps TK from being the universal, cheap way to neutralize bricks.  In the comics, we don't have telekinetics immobilizing the hulk simply by picking him up, so Hero doesn't want to have that either.

The reason people usually want TK to act like Flight UaO is also not logic, it's powergaming.  They notice that if it worked that way they could have a cheap power that would be super-powerful and completely neutralize many opponents, and then look for a post-hoc rationalization.  This is especially obvious when they want to buy, say, 1" of flight UaO.

 

Yes, I'm cynical.  My players made me that way.

[PaycheckHero]

He is of the opinion that is should be a Strength-based skill roll. Meaning a 3d6 roll where he would have a 19- chance of success and Black Diamond would have had only a 23- chance of success, since by the math his 40 TK STR would have had a +8 Modifier and BD's STR would have had a +12 Modifier.

I wonder how he'd react if I came into his D&D 2e game and then insisted that classes and levels are a bad idea?

 

I've tried and tried to explain the exponential growth of STR that a person with 60 STR is 16 times stronger than someone with a STR of 40. He can't wrap his head around it.

Are you sure he can't, or just doesn't want to because it would interfere with his powergaming? If the rule worked as he suggests, then Aunt May (somewhere between a str roll of 9 or 10) would have a non-negligible chance of outrolling a hero in a contest of strength. Opposed skill rolls are much, much chancier than opposed normal damage rolls. Hero uses normal damage for strength rolls mainly to prevent exactly what he wants to happen. I'll bet you anything that if your TK 40 NPC grabbed his STR 60 brick and you used his rule, he'd suddenly understand that he's so much stronger the chance of losing to the TK *should* be negligible, and he'd scream bloody murder for the system robbing him. Meh.

 

He actually accused HERO as being less user-friendly than 2nd Edition DnD.

Translation: he knows all the exploits in 2e and wants to be able to game the rules with equal effectiveness in Hero without having to expend any effort in reading the book and learning the rules.

 

And D&D players have *no business at all* in complaining about rules inconsistencies.

[Ndreare]

I find from my experience it is not the actual complexity f the rules so much as deviation from preferences and expectations.

 

If we expect something to work a certain way then it can be very frustrating when it does not (like trying a door and finding it locked).

 

I know before I suggested playing with Hero fans, but also consider just giving them the rules in two pages document. If they actually read it (about 75% of people are so lazy even 2 pages is too much) then they will hve more fun.

[BlueCloud2k2]

Yeah I provided him with my copy of the BBB and the Hero in Two Pages docs. He ready neither.

 

My wife enjoys playing (though its been so long since she's played she's forgotten the rules).

 

I have another friend here in town who'd love to play Champions (he plays Champions Online), but due to conflicting schedules he is unavailable.

[dmjalund]

how about TK NND

[Kraven Kor]

I can kind of see the player's point though.

Why does it matter how strong a person is when trying to TK them?

What are they using their strength against?

 

But that might depend on how the TK got built.

 

My rule on this was a DEX roll for the TK'd person to grab onto something; if they could grab onto something, they could resist the TK (but still had to "abort" an action to do so in most cases.)  

 

Otherwise, hello person floating in mid-air flailing about like it is going to do them any good

[Brother Jim]

Well, it has been a while since I've even looked at the rules.

And I was too lazy to look it up before posting.

 

 

 

 

 

That's my story and I'm sticking with it.

[bigbywolfe]

My rule on this was a DEX roll for the TK'd person to grab onto something; if they could grab onto something, they could resist the TK (but still had to "abort" an action to do so in most cases.)  

 

Otherwise, hello person floating in mid-air flailing about like it is going to do them any good

That makes TK drastically overpowered and completely ignores basically every single rule related to Grabbing an opponent.  Quite simply put, that is not Telekinesis, that is Flight Usable as an Attack.  

[Ndreare]

Yeah I provided him with my copy of the BBB and the Hero in Two Pages docs. He ready neither.

 

My wife enjoys playing (though its been so long since she's played she's forgotten the rules).

 

I have another friend here in town who'd love to play Champions (he plays Champions Online), but due to conflicting schedules he is unavailable.

What a bummer. Perhaps a sign at your local game store or a Barns & Nobles?

[Kraven Kor]

That makes TK drastically overpowered and completely ignores basically every single rule related to Grabbing an opponent.  Quite simply put, that is not Telekinesis, that is Flight Usable as an Attack.  

 

In the entire campaign, she was able to hold a brick off the ground for a few phases once.  Figure basic 12- to 13- DEX roll.

Ended up being no more "overpowered" than an entangle.

 

Your Results May Vary.

[Nadrakas]

Yeah I provided him with my copy of the BBB and the Hero in Two Pages docs. He ready neither.

 

My wife enjoys playing (though its been so long since she's played she's forgotten the rules).

 

I have another friend here in town who'd love to play Champions (he plays Champions Online), but due to conflicting schedules he is unavailable.

"Sigh"...still wish we lived closer BlueCloud.

 

Counting the "Body" of the d6's in Hero is integral to the system, just as THAC0 is part-n-parcel to AD&D-2e.  Same goes for the Strength System w/60 vs 40 being 16x times as strong -- whereas in D&D 4e, the difference is negligible (for those who can actually get to a 40 or 60 Strength that is...).

 

"Sigh"  I think you're going to continue to have arguments, no matter what you do.  You could play D&D (any edition) and I think this player would complain about something (probably many things), especially if his character was getting "dorked."  Some people just can't be pleased...ever.

 

Forgive me for saying this...but I wouldn't make too many changes.  Keep the "Big" rules what they are...otherwise it can lead to lots of confusion.  Perhaps some cosmetic changes might work (3d6 + OCV vs 10 + DCV), but I don't know if making "Big" changes are worth all the work.  It's up to you -- you have to decide if making "Big" changes for One Player are worth it (I understand you have a limited pool of players...I have even less here ).  I wish you luck in whatever you decide.

 

Peace.

 

 

~ M

 

P.S.:  Of course, I'm one to talk...I tweak systems all the time. However, I do sit down and discuss the changes with my players -- as long as the players actually take the time to learn the rules.  Jeesh, my wife knows the Hero System rules better than I do, and I started back when Champions came out 32 years ago ('81), and she's "only" been playing for 9-years (since '04) when we put together and formatted the Until Database II.  Hmm...did I mention that my wife is really smart?  Well, she is...and beautiful too.

 

[Kraven Kor]

"Sigh"...still wish we lived closer BlueCloud.

 

Counting the "Body" of the d6's in Hero is integral to the system, just as THAC0 is part-n-parcel to AD&D-2e.  Same goes for the Strength System w/60 vs 40 being 16x times as strong -- whereas in D&D 4e, the difference is negligible (for those who can actually get to a 40 or 60 Strength that is...).

 

"Sigh"  I think you're going to continue to have arguments, no matter what you do.  You could play D&D (any edition) and I think this player would complain about something (probably many things), especially if his character was getting "dorked."  Some people just can't be pleased...ever.

 

 

~ M

 

I sincerely think that such players are more interested in "playing the game of arguing about the game" than the actual game.  

 

And that can be both good and bad; some players pull off rules arguments with less emotion / melodrama than others.  I know that in text-based games some GM's have taken me as being melodramatic or argumentative; not really my intent, but intent "does not equal" results

[Nadrakas]

I sincerely think that such players are more interested in "playing the game of arguing about the game" than the actual game.  

 

And that can be both good and bad; some players pull off rules arguments with less emotion / melodrama than others.  I know that in text-based games some GM's have taken me as being melodramatic or argumentative; not really my intent, but intent "does not equal" results

Very possible on the "Arguing about the game...".........though, it may be a mix of that and the "My Character has to be the BADDEST of the BAD!!!" syndrome.

 

Personally I prefer Face-to-Face.

 

 

Kraven Kor:  I would never automatically assume that you were being melodramatic or argumentative.  That would be very rude to you.

 

In fact, I don't assume (remember what is said about "assume"...) that someone is being melodramatic/argumentative when they bring up rules questions.  Sometimes the rules, as written, are either confusing or contradictory.  If there are confusing/contradictory rules, then the group should come to a decision as to how to resolve them (As long as everyone knows the rules...otherwise, it might come down to the GM making that decision).

 

Other times, well...the rules get in the way of having a good time.  That's what a good GM/DM/Storyteller is there to help everyone have a good time -- not, mind you, to "save" the characters from their own bad decisions...but if the dice are getting in the way of a good story (ie: A 1 hp rat is going to kill the 4th level fighter, before the party ever gets to the main action...) then some adjudication of the rules/dice should be made.  Of course, that's my opinion...but I always try to ensure that everyone has fun.

 

Sadly, there are people who come to the table with the attitude of having fun at everyone's expense -- and these individuals can be both GMs or Players.  That can cause problems, and should be discussed as early as possible.  Perhaps the individual doesn't know they're doing anything, perhaps they don't mean anything by it...or perhaps they are doing it intentionally to goad other people.  It's always difficult when something like this comes up -- I, along with my groups, have had to deal with this type of thing a few times in the past...usually it's worked out, but in a few cases it hasn't.

 

~ M

[Kraven Kor]

Very possible on the "Arguing about the game...".........though, it may be a mix of that and the "My Character has to be the BADDEST of the BAD!!!" syndrome.

 

Personally I prefer Face-to-Face.

 

 

Kraven Kor:  I would never automatically assume that you were being melodramatic or argumentative.  That would be very rude to you.

 

In fact, I don't assume (remember what is said about "assume"...) that someone is being melodramatic/argumentative when they bring up rules questions.  Sometimes the rules, as written, are either confusing or contradictory.  If there are confusing/contradictory rules, then the group should come to a decision as to how to resolve them (As long as everyone knows the rules...otherwise, it might come down to the GM making that decision).

 

Other times, well...the rules get in the way of having a good time.  That's what a good GM/DM/Storyteller is there to help everyone have a good time -- not, mind you, to "save" the characters from their own bad decisions...but if the dice are getting in the way of a good story (ie: A 1 hp rat is going to kill the 4th level fighter, before the party ever gets to the main action...) then some adjudication of the rules/dice should be made.  Of course, that's my opinion...but I always try to ensure that everyone has fun.

 

Sadly, there are people who come to the table with the attitude of having fun at everyone's expense -- and these individuals can be both GMs or Players.  That can cause problems, and should be discussed as early as possible.  Perhaps the individual doesn't know they're doing anything, perhaps they don't mean anything by it...or perhaps they are doing it intentionally to goad other people.  It's always difficult when something like this comes up -- I, along with my groups, have had to deal with this type of thing a few times in the past...usually it's worked out, but in a few cases it hasn't.

 

~ M

 

100% with you there.  

 

Though I really don't think too many "problem players" are doing so to purposefully to have fun at other's expense; I think it is just all part of geeks having some oddball social interactions and personality disorders and finding a group that all has the same viewpoint / problems / needs is not simple.

 

So again I give everyone the benefit of the doubt that they are not being rude or dumb or difficult with any real intent to do so; more just a part of their personality and experiences.

 

And I have *failed* at two online campaigns due to assorted drama of this nature - and wondering if I am part of the problem