Agent X

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever I don't accept the notion that Firelord is always as durable as Thor.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever One of the most frustrating things about discussing this stuff with you is how you pretend your points are logical. 2 Didn't take a sudden left turn. 2 is different from 1, 3, & 4. So? I was trying to use a framework I didn't even find that particularly useful so I'll clear it up in my own language for the millionth time. Spider-Man can take the Rhino down in one shot. The Rhino has withstood more than one of Hulk's shots. Now, follow me everyone before someone makes the insipid remark that I'm claiming something I'm not: Although Spider-Man is not capable of producing the kind of power the Hulk is, he is able to produce enough power if he hits the right spot to one-shot someone that can withstand a decent punch from the Hulk. Now, most folks (I hope) would say that, until Hulk really gets ridiculously enraged, Thor can hit as hard as the Hulk. That means Spider-Man can produce enough power if hits the right spot to one-shot someone that can withstand a decent strike from Thor. Again, before anyone gets silly, Spider-Man does not produce the kind of power that Thor can. Now, I hope you can keep up on this; Thor can produce the kind of power to take out Firelord with one blow. Spidey can't but it should be obvious that Spidey is in the right "range" based on past battles to plausibly give a telling barrage to the Firelord whose defenses were low enough for Thor to KO him. An important piece of evidence is this comic book you all know about that has Spider-Man do just that. yourself. You're assuming that Rhino is aluminum and Firelord is steel.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Yes, if it hits right.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Rhino isn't simply a mook in a suit. That's been explained already.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever No one said that Rhino is tougher than the Hulk. The point was that Rhino can take some of Hulk's punches but he can't ignore them and that Spider-Man can take out Rhino. Firelord can take some of Thor's, and presumably Hulk's, punches but he can't ignore them and that makes a plausible argument that Spider-Man can take out Firelord even if Firelord is sometimes much tougher than Rhino or always a little tougher than Rhino. An important source of evidence that supports this conclusion is the fact that Spider-Man took out Firelord.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever One of the problems I think some folks are having is because they refuse to go beyond the labels. Firelord is a Herald of Galactus. Spider-Man is your Friendly Neighborhood Wall-Crawler. One sounds much more impressive than the other but it's not a recognition of particulars. Example: In Chess, the pawn is the weakest piece on the board yet it can capture any other piece in the right circumstances. Comic Book Example: Golden Age Green Lantern is easily in a different league than the Fluoronic Man yet the Fluorinic Man could conceivably defeat the Golden Age Green Lantern because of how the two match up, given that Green Lantern's ring didn't work against wood. This example: An enraged, arrogant Firelord wanted the satisfaction of beating down Spider-Man with his bare hands if he could get him to sit still long enough and Spider-Man was able to use blinding speed to beat down Firelord before Firelord realized he needed to use the Power Cosmic to defense himself. If you don't like the story that's your prerogative but it doesn't mean the story isn't viable. If you argue that it isn't viable it is because you have chosen to create details that aren't facts to disprove the viability. It has been demonstrated that Firelord can be KO'd by Thor quite handily. It doesn't matter if sometimes Firelord has higher defenses. If you want to pretend that his defenses are always higher because they haven't explained why he is sometimes hurt and sometimes isn't - then you are the one adding something new to the description of Firelord. What those of us who are willing to accept it are doing is providing an explanation that can be extrapolated from how we've seen the character, and characters like him, interact with others in the past. IOW, you are the guys making stuff up. Firelord got beat down. It happened. And, there is a plausible explanation of how his powers worked provided by his past statements, adventures, and the description and behavior of the Power Cosmic.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever You guys can be so dishonest in how you quote someone and interpret them. You've spent, what? 2 or 3 pages ridiculing a post you chose to take out of context. I've quoted the original statement in it's entirety and apparently I will now have to explain to you why you read it wrong on the assumption it's an issue of comprehension issues rather than dirty debate tricks. Notice the qualification in his entire post, "when it comes to throwing punches". You have to ask yourself what league does Hugh mean? I believe anyone without the desire to belittle Hugh for daring to disagree with them would have come to the conclusion that the league he was speaking of was in terms of throwing punches. Now, he probably didn't sit down with his lawyer to write this up to avoid any willful misrepresentation so, yeah, he could have cleaned it up a bit. However, we've all been talking about this for quite some time so you guys knew what he meant anyway or you may wish to work on your reading comprehension skills. So I'm going to clean it up for Hugh: - Spider Man is in the Rhino's league in terms of being able to do harm to Rhino with a punch. - Rhino is in the Hulk's league in terms of being able to withstand a punch from the Hulk. - Hulk is in Thor's league in terms of being able to do harm with a punch. - Thor is in Firelord's league in terms of being able to do harm to Firelord with a punch. It stands to reason that the Hulk can do harm to Firelord with a punch. Hulk can do harm to Rhino with a punch. Spider Man can do harm to Rhino with a punch but not as much as Hulk can. Therefore, there is reason to believe that Spider Man can do harm, but less harm, to Firelord as Thor can do harm to Firelord with a punch. Does that mean Spider Man is in Firelord's league in terms of being roughly peers in combat? No. But it does mean the idea that Spider Man landing a rain of blows on Firelord would do enough harm to KO him is viable. Now, are you guys arguing that the Hulk and Thor can't do harm to Firelord with punches?

Re: THE ULTIMATE SPEEDSTER -- What Do *You* Want To See? Optional Rules that allow for more combat velocity without creating balance issues with move bys and move throughs.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Spider-Man style acrobatics by Spider-Man doesn't exactly slow Spider-Man down as much as it would slow down someone else breaking their back trying to perform.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever It doesn't work like that. The diaologue doesn't get compressed. It's not any sort of guide to how long things take in any way in a comic book... unless the dialogue specifically is a countdown or something. Dialogue is "color" as much as anything else.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Dialogue and time don't mesh well in comics. I thought everyone knew that.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever A rain of blows by a ridiculously quick Spider-Man doesn't suggest numbers similar to a rain of blows by a boxer.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever He came off pretty stupid to me when he flew out to go after Thor because Air-Walker's robot was beaten down by Thor.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever In this case, it would be the fact that the writer decided he couldn't avoid Firelord long enough to let the Avengers handle it.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Like claiming that Firelord's velocity is such and such when he crashes on that moon.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever If I were to take a page out of your book I would accuse you of claiming that Firelord is as powerful as Darkseid. Gary already blasted much of this stuff about orbital re-entry. Spidey is not an everyday joe with a few superpowers and a heart as big as New York City. Spidey is a guy who thinks he's an everyday joe with a few superpowers who is actually quite a bit more powerful than he estimates himself. Does an everyday joe design web-shooters in high school when he decides he needs them to go along with his new spider powers? I agree with the heart as big as New York City, though not literally.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever I've done it before myself, not for months thank the Lord, but I sure didn't like it.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever I brought this up recently. I think he said, in so many words, that he didn't know of any examples.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Is that normal for you? I know some people function pretty well like that. Winston Churchill did that during WWII and wasn't much the worse for wear and I've heard Michael Landon claim that he slept anywhere from about 2 to 3 1/2 hours a day and felt fine.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever I had 7 hours of sleep.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever No response necessary.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Shades of Worldmaker

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever No. It's that he was bewildered by Spidey's speed and simply unwilling to imagine that Spidey could be that much of a threat - i.e. Overconfident which Firelord sure does say the right things to make one believe he is.