PamelaIsley

I chopped your post up a bit to make two points. I don't mean to present anything out of context. I love the superteam the Champions (you're right about the name, although I think the universe maybe is supposed to be named like a comic book would be). Defender, Witchcraft, and Nighthawk are definitely my three favorite "fake" superheroes (but they don't really even begin to orbit Batman, Batgirl, Power Girl, and some other DC versers in terms of "real" heroes). I'm not sure why I would use the CU at all if I weren't using the Champions. Because . . . . On your second point, I don't really like that many CU villains. And definitely not the "big" ones. I don't like Dr. Destroyer (he would have died in Detroit under my modified universe). I don't like Mechanon. My opinions on the alien and dimensional invaders are posted throughout the thread. I do like Gravitar, Invictus, and, sort of, Geoffrey Haganstone. My goal in this thread was to basically build out a "better" Champions Universe around the Champions, with sufficient room for the PCs to operate. If I were to start a game up, it would almost certainly feature mostly villains of my own creation, plus a few CU villains (like Tachyon, Pulsar, Howler, and maybe Lazer) that are easy to fit in to my desired power levels. I need at least the Sentinels though for a ton of the plot seeds I've incorporated in a lot of my original characters' backgrounds.

I've never been a fan of shared universes across genres. I'd prefer my superhero, sci-fi, and fantasy campaigns remain very separate. Of course, I use very different products for each (relying on Forgotten Realms back when I did any kind of fantasy, Traveller/Star Wars for sci-fi, and Batman/CU for superheroes).

In my defense, the published universe is obsessed with dates. It feels the need to anchor itself to very specific points in time (particularly the Battle of Detroit, which it explicitly places in 1992, a major problem since that was already 15 years in the past as of News of the World). And it's not just the setting book -- the villain books include tons and tons of very specific dates. I am staunchly opposed to any real world setting doing this, so I admit it drives me crazy. The frustrating thing about the CU is that it is obsessed with dates, and then is sloppy about processing what those dates mean. The setting provides so many dates that there is a lot of work scrubbing it out (it's most of the reason for this thread frankly) and reworking the timeline. If the Champions are supposed to be a new superhero team as of Champions 6E, then they can't have started adventuring in 2001 (nine years before that book is published and now 18 years ago). I think superteams other than the Champions (and the PCs) are important. I don't want to use these characters (I have no attachment to a single one, and will spare people my nitpicking of their stories other than the dates). But I also don't want to excise so much of the setting that it no longer feels recognizable. So I'm struggling between total revamp of the teams (using just a form of their names), a refresh (changing dates for most, eliminating some of them and replacing them with original characters), or just tweaks (just dates and deleting Bravo and Black Rose's background). I also brought them up because they are just so bizarre that I thought their backgrounds and builds must have struck others as odd.

I'm fine with disagreeing, but now you've made me re-read these pages (I usually skip them when I go back through these books), so the punishment is that I have to write something else. Steve had to know something was up (as I said before, at least partly because of how much preemptive, defensive explaining he does). At the beginning of this section, he writes that CU is an unlimited source campaign. He then lists a lot of different sources, including the categories of Magic and Mysticism. Then, half a page later, he says magic is the source of everything. I just can't believe he didn't think this would be received as confusing (at best). *This is compounded by the fact that when explaining sources in Champions (6E and 5E), that book actually contrasts an unlimited source campaign with a magic-only campaign (one of the examples of a limited source campaign).

I've already said where I stand on this issue. Just to add one more thing though, Champions Universe (both 5E and 6E), meaning Steve Long, practically concedes that it's a bizarre and confusing metafact with the long explanation of the difference between "magic" (like what Witchcraft uses) and "MAGIC" (like what causes people to develop superpowers and, strangest of all, supertechnology). One would have thought that once you got halfway through writing p. 33 and 34 in 6E CU (p. 29 and 30 in 5E), you might have decided that this explanation wasn't really helping with suspension of disbelief (even at a table of people willing to play a superhero game to begin with). If you had used "cosmic energy", "quantum flux", or whatever, it would have taken one sentence and I think most people would have moved on. Using magic as the explanation has just lead to lots and lots of text about the issue (and not just in the published books). It's just odd to say that "magic" is both a special effect and the cause of all super stuff in a setting.

This is probably my main problem with them. They are all so strange (except for The Thing take off) that they just don't feel like good "example" superteams. Maybe only the Champions are supposed to be made up of recognizable superhero types. The Sentinels and Justice Squadron would make good fodder for a parody (or a bizarre 80s cartoon), but they are just too weird. I can't really see either of them starring in an actual comic book (much less a film based on a comic universe, which is how many players now come to superhero stuff).

I've been looking into the Sentinels and Justice Squadron (ugh). Besides just the Justice Squadron's name (which actually sounds cheesier than Futurama's New Justice Team), these are not very well put together superhero teams. Let's look at the listed members. Sentinels Black Rose. Supermage. Leader of the team (this is actually not clear; in the team history, Diamond is said to be the most recent leader, but in the bios, she is identified as leader). Extradimensional mage. Diamond. Brick. Long serving member who has diamond skin. He's the Thing. Almost unashamedly. Diadem. Psionics. Youngest member and mentalist. Supposed to be a relatively new hero, but as of News of the World, she's quite old. Dr. Vox. Energy Projector. Recently developed sonic blast powers. Proteus. Shapechanger. Mysterious figure who can alter his form. Bravo. No real class. Extradimensional swordfighter from Faerie. Justice Blink. Teleporter. Mainly can teleport others. Brawler. Brick. Legacy hero and one of strongest men in the world. Sort of the leader? Drifter. Supermage. Extremely powerful mysterious magical figure. Flashover. Energy Projector. Reformed supervillain. Superstar. Energy Projector. Very powerful cosmic energy projector. Tomahawk. Sort of Brick. Experienced supercombatant. Each team has six members (ruling out voting as a means of making decisions). Neither team has a real gadgeteer. And neither team has a speedster. The Sentinels, in particular, have some serious weaknesses as a tactical unit, despite massive point inflation. Some of the bios are just bizarre, and some clearly have struggled with some version issues (Diadem mainly). They all suffer from simply being too old because their bios use specific dates, they clearly are from earlier versions of the game than 5E (I think), and time has sped past them. If you wanted to set your game at the time News of the World came out, only Superstar is reasonably younger than his early 30s. (Diadem started superheroing in 1989, Blink in 1993, Flashover in 1994, and Superstar in 2001. These are the young members, and Superstar is supposed to be a "rookie.") So just because of some date issues, these teams are in need of a refresh. The question is whether they are in need of a full reboot. I have given serious thought to totally re-creating both teams from scratch using original heroes. I've also considered pruning the ranks a little and just re-doing several spots to build out more balanced teams and allow them to feel more vibrant (like the Champions) in a setting update. What do people think? I feel like these teams are more significant in the Champions Universe than the offhand mentions they get in 6E, but I'm not really all that pleased with the fleshed out versions that appear in 5E for the reasons above.

Thanks Lord Liaden! Angelstone and NovaSolutions might work. Angelstone maybe a little better.

Are there any Champions Universe organizations that are dedicated to scientific research and breakthroughs, almost at all costs? I'm thinking someone less evil than VIPER or ARGENT so they can work with the government and heroes, but not as goody two shoes as say Harmon Industries. I was thinking of modifying the Goodman Institute to be less altruistic and more about research at almost any cost (short of outright evil or villainy), but I wondered if I was missing something. Pharos in Millennium City kind of fits this as a normal company that isn't quite evil, but isn't quite a perfect corporate citizen, but what I have in mind would fit better with a Think Tank or something that's not run exclusively for profit or shareholder value.

Thank you so much for the multipower suggestion. I think I will build her out a bit more. On the telekinesis slam to the west only . . . that's Champions Powers idea, not really mine. It is a nice idea, but I do think if you totally stopped relative to the Earth, you'd go splat pretty fast against any solid object. I would assume, from a realism standpoint, that Kinetic Controllers are only able to sort of stop you, not totally stop you. Kinetic powers are a cool idea, but kind of hard to implement.

Yes, his OCV is very high (12). I guess you can forgive the STR and Resistant Protection since he's described as a Brick / Speedester.

Yes! We are in complete agreement.

Exactly! But Champions doesn't really explain it as human nature. Somehow the thing that gives a lot of scientist/academic types their powers warps their mind in a deux ex machina way and they become evil. There's one guy who tries to give himself superpowers so as to be a superhero, succeeds, but the test "changed him somehow" and he decides to be a villain. It would be more believable if when he finally got the powers, he naturally just realized, "hey it's easier to be a criminal with these kinetic powers, so that's what I'm going to do." My thought is that just getting powers will turn many people (perhaps even the average person) into some degree of supervillain, so there's no need to say "the alien artifact that Susan Sonderheim found warped her personality."

Daystar Total: 400 STR 13, 12-, 2 ½ d6 DEX 18, 13- CON 18, 13- INT 18, 13- EGO 13, 12- PRE 18, 13-, 3 ½ d6 OCV 6 DCV 8 OMCV 3 DMCV 3 SPD 5 PD 7 25 (18r) ED 7 25 (18r) REC 8 END 70 BODY 10 STUN 40 Total Cost: 150 Skills & Talents CS: Celestial Multipower +2 (10) Computer Programming, 13- (3) Electronics, 13- (3) Inventor, 13- (3) KS: Space Program, 12- (3) KS: Superhuman World, 11- (2) Language: (English, Completely Fluent, Japanese Native) PS: Astrophysicist, 12- (3) PS: Astronaut, 12- (3) SS: Astrophysics, 12- (3) SS: Gravitics, 13- (4) SS: Electrical Engineering, 12- (3) SS: Rocketry, 12- (3) Total Cost: 46 Powers Nebula Field Generator (Darkness to Sight and Radio Groups 8m radius (45 Active Points), OIF -½); (30) Mask (Sight Group Flash Defense (10 Active Points), OIF -½); (7) Personal Force Field Generator (Resistant Protection 18 PD / 18 ED (54 Active Points), OIF -½, Unified -¼); (31) Force Field Generator (Life Support: Safe in High Pressure, High Radiation, Intense Cold, Intense Heat, Low Pressure, Vacuum, Self Contained Breathing (19 Active Points), OIF -½, Unified -¼); (11) Force Bubble Flight (Flight 25m, Megascale (1m = 100 km) +1 ½ (62 Active Points), OIF -½); (41) Celestial Powered Gloves (Multipower, 90 Point Reserve (90 Active Points), all slots OIF -½); (60) 1. Planetary Gravity Control (Telekinesis 40 STR (8d6),½ End +¼ (75 Active Points)); 5f 2. Comet Blast (Blast 12d6, AOE (4m Radius) +¼ (75 Active Points), Can Be Deflected -¼); 4f 3. Plasma Blast (Blast 10d6 AOE (18m Radius, Explosion) +½ (75 Active Points)); 5f 4. Sunfire Flare Blast (Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points) PLUS Sight Group Flash 6d6 (30 Active Points), Linked -½; Total 90 Active Cost, 55 Real Cost); 5f 5. White Hot Blast (RKA 4d6, ½ End +¼ (75 Active Points)); 5f Total Cost: 204 Matching Complications Hunted (NASA, Infrequent, Less Powerful, NCI, Harshly Punish); (10) Hunted (Sentinels, Infrequent, Mo Pow, NCI, Harshly Punish); (20) Psychological Complication (Overconfident, Common, Strong); (15) Psychological Complication (Insufferable Know It All, Common, Strong); (15) Social Complication (Public Identity: Celeste Tabe, Frequent, Major); (15) Total: 75 points Background: Celeste Tabe was one of the youngest women ever selected to be a part of NASA’s space program. A gifted astrophysicist, Tabe underwent extensive training to be able to serve as an astronaut on the International Space Station, where NASA and other space programs conducted research on materials from other worlds. Tabe leapt at the chance, seeing this as a sure way to both celebrity scientist status and unique knowledge. While serving on the space station, Tabe was made privy to a remarkable discovery. NASA had recovered an extremely small, artificial object that it was sure was a piece of alien technology. So the space agency wanted a small team of researchers to study it and confirm its origins and discover what it did. One night, while alone in the station’s lab, Celeste was able to open the artifact, and found that it was actually a case for an extremely small, but powerful energy generator. Thrilled with the discovery, Celeste decided to keep it to herself. Over the next few weeks, she secretly began to experiment with the generator, putting it back in the case after each test. She finally convinced her superiors that any real work would have to be done on Earth, so she and the artifact were brought back to Earth. Then she promptly stole it. Using the generator and her own scientific knowledge, Celeste was able to build several small gadgets that gave her immense powers. The alien device was a conduit for celestial and solar power. Celeste saw the generator as her path to superhuman status, and because she was now a thief, she decided to turn to villainy. Calling herself Daystar, Tabe used her powers to conduct a series of daring attacks on the Sentinels. Her goal was to show off her powers to potential clients. And she was successful. Since her introduction, Daystar has become a popular mercentary supervillain and scientist for hire, working with the likes of ARGENT, VIPER, and a few master villains. Personality: Celeste Tabe is an intelligent, talented, but almost completely amoral woman. Always essentially selfish, Daystar could not pass up an opportunity for the type of personal power that the alien microgenerator offered. Since NASA was unlikely to just give it to her, she stole it. She has zero regrets about her decision because she finds it immensely satisfying to wield power as Daystar, and many nefarious groups are still willing to pay her to conduct research and build devices for them (in fact, they pay a good deal more than any legitimate government, university, or company). Daystar loves showing off both her powers and her scientific skills. Although she usually works very well with any group (being sane, professional, and relatively well-balanced), Celeste is an insufferable know-it-all. She has an opinion on everything, frequently offers advice on how to run an operation or use technology, and refuses to admit that anyone might know something that she doesn’t. This can make her unpleasant to be around. Despite making considerable money as a criminal and an unethical researcher, Daystar’s gadgeteering hobby is expensive, and she is always looking for new projects or sources of income. Powers: The alien microgenerator that Daystar stole gives her an impressive, if odd, suite of powers related to celestial energy. Daystar was able to copy the generator (although she’s not exactly sure how) and put versions of if in a belt and in gloves. The generator in her belt allows her to manipulate celestial energy present in the atmosphere to create force fields around herself. These offer protection, life support, and the ability to fly incredibly fast inside of a bubble. She can also use the belt to project a field of nebula-type energy, blinding opponents. Her gloves have the remarkable ability to create a series of blasts with wide areas of effect (including one that hurls a small comet at her target). She can manipulate planetary gravity to simulate the powers of telekinesis. Appearance: Celeste Tabe is a slim, shapely Japanese-American woman in her late 20s. She has long dark hair. She is always in her either her costume or working clothes suitable for a lab (she sometimes even just wears a lab coat in place of her cape over her costume). As Daystar, she wears a purple minidress and mask, with a white, high collared cape. Her gloves, belt, and knee-high boots are white. When she uses her powers, her gloves and belt have a deep purple glow. Notes: I liked the chapter in Champions Powers on Celestial and Solar powers and here is a character that uses them. Her powers are odd blasts and other weird things that may or may not fit together that well tactically. Her personality is a little undeveloped compared to my other writeups. The breakthrough to make this character more interesting was when I decided to make her dependent on a focus (something I don't normally do). That helped spur the story of her as an inventor rather than a scientist who was imbued with powers by an alien artifact (which, of course, is a serious Champions trope). Champions has a lot of these scientist characters who once they get powers, their personality changes and they become evil. I don't really like that so you won't see me use it. The reality is that in the "real world", most people who were suddenly superpowered would probably misuse them (which Champions Universe tacitly acknowledges by saying there are 3 superpowered villains for every 2 superpowered heroes). Daystar and Aetheria are my reaction to characters like Howler, Geothermal, and Photon. Daystar.hdc

Gravitar needs to be able to credibly fight a team and not lose fast. So I will half the damage negation and go from there. Fixing the entry now.

I'm quoting directly from the 6E writeup in my reply to you above. She originally had 54/54 with 30r/30r, plus the 8 DCs of energy AND physical damage negation. I was going to half the damage negation to 4 DCs of each, but now I'm thinking of dropping it totally.

It is a very obvious error. But it's not even just one sentence. And it's not like Invictus is a 6E villain. He was in 5E too, with the same backstory. But it is easy enough to ignore.

It's not a superhuman universe to me without costumes.

Do you prefer something like NBC's Heroes or sort the MCU where they basically have done away with either code names or secret identities? Or do you just not like the names that people pick?

These are great points. I'm happy to cut her further. In my defense, her original build has 54 PD (30r) and 54 ED (30r) AND the full damage negation. Also, the force field doesn't even cost END to activate. I thought I was scaling her down enough (particularly given the criticism I've endured elsewhere for even suggesting that these villains are out of whack with functional play reality), but it seems she's even more ridiculous than I initially thought (and maybe I'm too sensitive to criticism).

I don't disagree, but I'm confused. The real Gravitar has both a super powerful force field AND the damage negation field, so I didn't do anything to strengthen her. Here is her entry: 90 pts Gravitic Shield I: Resistant Protection Field (30 PD/30 ED) 0 END 53 pts Gravitic Shield II: Damage Negation (-8 DCs Physical and Energy), Costs Endurance (-½); 8 END I significantly cut down the force field, but left the damage negation field unchanged. I assumed the idea was that Gravitar could easily keep Shield I in place, but would burn END to use Shield II (although it provides great protection, there is a cost).

I had this exact same thought years ago! I figured the author had to know what Incubus meant, but goodness, what a weird name for a prankster-type character.

Overlord is good. I was thinking of Inferno, but his powers aren't really fire based. Cataclysm might work. Overlord or Tyrant are probably the best choices (the only slight quibble being he actually doesn't lead or control anyone at the moment).

Most of her friction powers relate to making people fall down. The telekinesis one can also be used to cause items to fall out of people's hands, or them to lose their grip. One example in the Champions Powers book is you can make someone slide out of a chair. I honestly don't quite get it, but this power is described as the core of a kinetic power set. The momentum telekinesis power is just a slam that only throws someone in one direction. You stop them from moving, the Earth keeps moving, and they fly across the room in a westward direction. She is missing a lot of powers in the Kinetics chapter (and that the master villain Kinematik has access to) because I simply didn't get what use they were. These were mostly related to draining movement powers or stopping someone in mid-movement. I allude to those in her writeup. When I say that Kinetica's preference is to just shoot projectiles at people, that echoes my own preference with the character. I just wasn't that adept at making the other powers effective in a sample combat. Thanks for catching the typo!

The strange thing is that his bio states that he has a sense of noblesse oblige and his ultimate goal is to convince the people of the world to join him. That, um, clashes quite strongly with the name he deliberately chose (and I know the bio says he chose it to strike fear in people; the fact is that it isn't going to strike fear so much as just be radically offensive or at least stoke the anger of a large segment of the population he wants to control). I usually don't care about things like this. And I certainly am not suggesting anyone else should. It's just whenever I sit down to write out a possible campaign thread (and I do this a lot), I always rule him out (even though he is a much more flexible master villain than most others) because of this issue. I think I'm going to use Gravitar in an Alliance-type situation even though it doesn't make quite as much sense.