Orion

Re: Champions Villains Volume 4: Fan Favourites The Fist of Doom A humanoid from another dimension, Doom can pass as human with the right clothing. In his home dimension magic and technology are used equally, and he is trying to use this knowledge to conquer the Earth. He is much more proficient with technology than magic, and the exotic, Kirbyesque machines he makes combines both in a way that works...sometimes. He can project fire from his hands, do some basic levitation, and has a weak energy shield, all due to his magical background, but no spells to speak of. All rather standard fare - what makes him fun is his complete megalomania and belief that *this time* he'll win. He'll monologue at the drop of a hat, and reveal his grand plans 30 minutes before they are implemented. He thinks he's on the level of Dr Doom, and can never figure out why he isn't respected as one of the great supervillains of this age. It turns out his actual power level is at or slightly below that of a single hero. The supervillains he hires to guard his base are probably more dangerous in combat than he is. His plans are dangerous - if he can get them to work, but he isn't much of a problem by himself. He should be presented as being very dangerous, and only slowly do the players figure out he is a second-rate hack. Make his first defeat seem like the players got lucky; the second defeat was from his goons running off; the third time they start to figure it out; etc. After they do figure it out, use him for comic relief. Adventure 1: He sends some constructed minions to rob a research lab of the super secret prototype he needs to complete his satellite death ray. The heroes follow the minions back to the base. In a fit f rage, Doom blasts several minions into dust for leading the heroes to him, then uses a device to teleport away. He appears powerful, but really the constructs were created with a vulnerability to his blasts. Adventure 2: People are turning into mindless zombies, and he'll do the same to more if the US government doesn't capitulate immediately. However, the zombies are only found in a 1-mile radius of a certain radio station, so the heroes move in. When the heroes arrive, he is in the midst of a long monologue about his impending triumph and how he has turned the state of New York into the brainless cattle they truly are. Astonished to find out his transmitter modification didn't quite work, he throws a tantrum, blames it all on his minions, and says they must redeem themselves by defeating the heroes. He scurries out the back to freedom. Adventure 3: The heroes capture one of their reoccurring enemies trying to rob a laboratory. He admits he is working for Doom, and gives the location. He seems to have a lot less respect for Doom, and fear his power much less, than the heroes do. He "forgets" to mention several other supervillains will be at the base. The heroes win, but it's a lot harder than they expected. Adventure 4: Doom escapes while being taken to jail. Two hours later, a weird light show is in evidence at his base. The heroes head back to investigate, and catch him powering up equipment. With no one to run interference, this time they easily defeat him, despite much bravado on his part. Even after being captured again he keeps on monologuing and talking to himself, trying to figure out where everyone else messed up his grand plan (it could never be his fault). Adventure 5: A supervillain known to one of the heroes asks to meet on neutral ground. He's not bad, as villains go, so the meeting is made. He reveals he's been helping guard Doom's new base. You suspect he may have been behind the rash of recent robberies in the area, but have nothing to pin on him, and he says nothing. He is sick of working for Doom due to the constant belittlement, megalomania, and general nutcase personality. Also, Doom plans to destroy NYC in his next scheme to gain control of the world. The villain doesn't think he can do it, but just in case, is letting the heroes know.

Re: Savage Worlds magic to Hero? Although it's nearly heresy on these boards, I'd suggest not worrying about the point cost at all. Make them buy the END reserve and skill necessary to use magic, but then ignore the costs of individual spells. Set limits on active points and the total number of spells known, but don't worry about their costing anything. As long as the characters are balanced in ability and the players are happy with what they can do, it doesn't matter if spells cost 1 point each, or 25. When I've been a Fantasy Hero GM in the past, I ignored the cost of individual spells and it worked out well. Admittedly, this was in part because all the players were new to the Hero System and didn't care about points, only about what they could do. If point totals are important to the players, just increase the price of the magic skill or end reserve so that the characters all end up costing about the same.

Re: For whom the (dinner) bell tolls... Orion: plain American food for the most part. Meatloaf, pot pie, casseroles. Not much of a cook at all, so hamburgers, pizza, and hot dogs high on his list. Lots of sandwiches from the deli. Eats out a lot. Italian food is about as ethnic as he gets, and generally avoids Asian food. Loves beer, but wouldn't know a good wine if it was thrown in his face. Adamant: steak and baked potato type by preference, but has traveled the world enough that will eat just about anything without complaining. BBQ and steaks are what he cooks best, but he prefers it if someone else does the cooking. He can go without eating due to being energy in human form, but enjoys it. Doesn't drink much, but will always go for something good when he does. More of a tea or water drinker. Emerald Knight: with a San Diego surfer dude background, he's fond of Mexican and anything Asian. Loves sushi. Thinks all those off-the-wall California dishes are actually normal food. Tends to prefer seafood over beef and pork. Drinks microbrews and California wines like the rest of his social group, but is really more interested in the alcohol content than the taste.

Re: "Elevator Pitch" your campaign Not gaming at this time, but am developing campaigns as I have time. I enjoy the development process more than the actual gaming, so this is okay by me. The four with an * have significant writeups, while the other two still exist only in my mind. Third Era*: Superpowers first appeared 10 years ago, quickly followed by proof of psionics and magic. There are now about 150-200 known supervillains in the world, but only 15-20 heroes. 80% of each call the USA home, because that's where the magic storms mostly happen. Tech levels are starting to rise because of inspection of alien objects, but the feel is closer to hard scifi than comic book gizmos. The US is a bleak, grim, uncertain place, as big business pretty much controls all politics, super-powered criminals are mostly unstoppable, personal rights have been greatly reduced, and there is real fear that the US will break up into component nations in the next 20 years, or that various supervillains will control portions as warlords. If the players prefer, this background will be downplayed/ignored - it exists mostly so that they can change things for the better if they wish. The heroes have just recently gained their powers, and feel a strong urge to make the world a better place. The campaign tone should be upbeat, as they are expected to have a positive effect. They aren't trying to be role-models, and consider themselves soldiers or policemen fighting the super-powered criminals, monsters, and aliens. Killing is definitely allowed, but not required. Bronze age feel, not silver or iron. The campaign can be focused on just superpowers, psi, aliens, monsters, etc., or have a mix - whatever the players prefer. Shades of Grey: possibly in the Third Era, but if so, ignores everything outside of LA. People with powers type campaign. No costumes or code names. Each character typically has a limited number of powers, but some are quite powerful with them. Balance in point costs and combat ability not a consideration at all - write up the concept however you want it to be. Crimefighting probably of low importance, if done at all, and characters can be somewhat criminal if they wish. Characters that are morally neutral are encouraged, and they are expected to have different goals. Example characters/NPCs are a shapechanging mercenary that will spy for any side, a former bad cop/loan shark/leg breaker forced to hunt down monsters to redeem his soul, a telepath that uses his powers a little too much for his own enjoyment, and a good-hearted detective that uses his fists and pistol more than he should. The campaign is not about them doing bad things, but about morally ambiguous people going about their lives and being thrown into situations where they do some good, despite their nature. Unnamed: Relatively undeveloped, and my newest project. It's a mish-mash of Barsoom, Buck Rogers, Flash Gordon, Cadillacs and Dinosaurs, and anything else I find cool. Civilization fell hundreds of years ago, and people live in ruined cities, caves, small villages, etc. Definitely a tribal feel to it. Swords, bows, and spears are the primary weapons, but ray guns and anti-gravity also exist in rare numbers. Much time is spent trying to find lost technology and knowledge from the ruins, explore new areas to colonize, defeat the bandits and raiders trying to steal your stuff, and fighting dinosaurs and monsters. Intelligent non-humans are around, and may be friend or foe. No magic or superpowers; I haven't decided on psionics, but if they exist they will be very low powered and mystical. Culture is loosely based on the Hodj discussion posted here some time back. Nuem River*: Fantasy campaign using the Harn setting. Low magic, not many monsters, and somewhat gritty. 1100's England, not Forgotten Realms. Characters are either low-level manor lords on the edge of the frontier, or their chief retainers. I ignore a couple key Harn things (guilds, heraldry, weapon restrictions), but even those that love the setting as printed would still be quite happy in it. Politics with the area lords and churches, and warfare with the nearby hostile barbarians take up much of the time, but there are opportunities to hunt the occasional monster. Heavy on roleplaying, lighter on combat. The feel is equal amounts Deryni, Tolkien, and Conan fighting the Picts. http://www.lythia.com/index.php?s=nuem Heart of the Demon*: several generations back a sorcerer of great power raised a horde of orcs, giants, and undead and took over the North. Most of the area was devastated, and he allows nothing to grow large enough to challenge him. Individual towns must fight against the orcs that still roam the area, as well as bandits and raiders from other towns. They strike back against the Witch King's minions when they have a chance, but must be very careful doing so. Magic and items of power are gathered from ruined cities to help fight back. The characters are not adventurers, but key retainers and supporters of a local lord/lady in an area that is leading the fight against the Witch King. If the Witch King's heart can be found, whatever that means, the prophecy says he can be destroyed, but without it there is no chance of victory. It is everyone's greatest hope the heart can be found, but in the meantime, there are plenty of lesser evils waiting to be destroyed. Dungeon crawls are frequent and magic is common, but powerful magic is quite rare. The campaign is about slowly taking down the Witch King, not about gaining personal wealth and power. Characters are expected to be already trained in their abilities, and little gaining in skill/abilities/powers should be expected (it is not a zero to hero game). Battletech*: use the Battletech rules for mech and tank battles, but Hero for everything else. The characters are members of a small mercenary company trying to make a living fighting pirates and guarding unimportant worlds in the backwater regions of the universe. 3015-3035 era, so no Clans or advanced tech toys. Everything that can be salvaged will be, and keeping track of ammo, armor, and spare parts will be important. The unit will never be large or important, but can have a significant local effect. This exists more as a backdrop for my fan fiction (48k words so far) than an expectation of using it for a game in the future.

Re: Superhero settings vs People with Powers settings I actually have a strong preference for Bronze Age superheroes, but toss in a reasonable amount of People with Powers in my stuff. My two longest running characters never wore uniforms, and were never about being a role model. Cops with powers is the vibe we were after. In fact, I don't think being a good role model or a "hero" has ever been the point of any super campaign I have played or GM'd. It's not that we were ever against the idea, it just wasn't as interesting to us as other stuff. It's not that supers are silver age to me, but that most supers tend towards silver age. With superheroes being such a wide category, there's room for about anything. I think my definitions show the clear differences between supers and people with powers, but of course there is going to be significant overlap as well.

Re: Superhero settings vs People with Powers settings People with Powers are still people. They are allowed to have biases and faults. They don't have to be role models, and aren't required to always act for the good of society. They are allowed to use weapons that might actually hurt someone, or even (gasp!) kill the opponent. The story is about the person, not about the power, and there is rarely a message involved. The plot is more important than the visual aspect, so showy powers and costumes are rarely seen. Superheroes are virtues with a human face. Their message (do not kill, help others, treat all equally, etc) is often more important than their personality. Their power, and how they use it, is more important to the story than what is going on in their lives, or in the world around them. They like to fight and get into combat, but cannot handle actually hurting anyone. The visual component is more important than the plot, and costumes and showy powers are the norm.

Re: What elements should a great superhero setting contain? I'm mostly staying out of this thread just because what makes a setting great is so varied that anything can be mentioned and have both supporters and detractors. I estimate 3/4 of the things mentioned so far make the setting less great to me, and some go so far as to make it unplayable. Yet these same things are critical necessities for others to enjoy a game. A more useful discussion is what would make a great silver age, iron age, people with powers, etc. setting.

Re: What elements should a great superhero setting contain?

Re: What elements should a great superhero setting contain?

Re: Small Town Superhumans? First campaign I ever played in was based out of Marshfield, Missouri, which had a population of about 4000 at the time. We assumed that a lot of the action happened in Springfield (population 150,000), the nearby big city, but the setting played a rather minor role in the game. Marshfield was chosen because that's where several of the players lived, and the characters were supposed to be the players, but with powers. I've also been in a campaign in Denton, Texas, population 60,000 or so at the time, because that's where we all were attending college. Neither campaign ever mentioned whether there were a lot of heroes in other cities, and we didn't care. My campaigns tend to be concentrated in the larger cities, primarily because that is where the drug lords, Viper cells, and Demon bases are at. People get their powers in a wide variety of locations, but gravitate towards the cities because that is where the bad guys are. However, my latest campaign will be based in a yet to be determined spot somewhere between Austin and Dallas. They'll have teleport technology, and will be going to the problems, rather than waiting for problems to strike close to home. I haven't decided yet whether to put them in a rural area, a small town, or in the suburbs of one of the big cities. It won't matter at all for the adventures they face, just the interactions with normals in their off hours. A key decisions is whether there are metahumans everywhere, and so having a couple in a small town is normal, or whether they are rare and one just happens to be in a small town. Either is okay, but give a very different feel for the campaign, and reason for the heroes to be fighting.

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat? I realized some time back, mostly because of discussions on this forum, that the setting is what primarily interests me about gaming. I love the history and culture of the fictional game worlds much more than the actual playing. I love Tolkien for the sweeping history and backstory in the Silmarilion much more than for the LoTR storyline. Eddings has more characterization than Tolkien, but skimps on history. No surprise that I found Eddings to be a crashing bore. Similarly, when I fall in love with a campaign setting, it is always because of the attention to detail and large backstory. I play Traveller and Battletech because of the settings, not their rules. Harn is my favorite fantasy setting. When I use Harn, I expect to play in that setting, not just a setting that uses it as a map. My enjoyment is from detailing a little section of a published world, or in creating my own. Actually getting players is secondary. I would say that I'm probably not that good of a GM for most players. Players that like open-ended, player-driven stories in a tightly controlled setting will be happy with me. Those that just want to hang out, change the setting, or play that special snowflake won't be happy. I love the "The 13th warrior", and would enjoy playing something similar, but I'd never GM it. I can do Vikings. I can do Arabians. I can't do both at the same time, whether to contrast the cultures or just because someone wants to play something completely different. If we're going to do a Viking story, everyone is a Viking, and we're going to be immersed in Viking culture up to our eyeballs. Some people like to have that character that is different or unique. I actively discourage that. If a player enjoys that, more power to them, but I have no interest in telling that kind of story. It's not that I won't, it's that I can't do that kind of story. I'm not interested in it, so I can't come up with good storylines. My storylines are different, and being different is not what they are about. As mentioned earlier, who controls the races and cultures of a game world? Which comes first, the setting, or the characters? I've been a player in both types of campaigns, but only enjoy being the GM in the first. This is one of those things that needs to be discussed with the players before a game starts. I will try to design a world based on player input, and am in fact doing so right now. But, I expect the players to make a character that fits the setting, not to bring a character that needs to be fitted into the setting. The way I see it, if they didn't want to play in that setting, they should have said so up front so that something everyone was happy with could have been chosen. And like most of the time I post online, I am unhappy with my answer here, because I just don't communicate ideas well this way.

Re: World with superheroes - Only one power set? I love the idea of technology slowly advancing and new powers coming about - I think it could make a great campaign. Could also easily work if all powers were induced mutations or cybernetic equipment.

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat? Markdoc has replied better than I can, but I'll add a little here. I see three reasons to choose a race: 1) you like the culture, 2) you like the stats, 3) you like the visual appearance. Any or all of these are good reasons. But, as I said in my earlier post, if all races are going to be played the same, then culture can't be one of the reasons. If they all have the same culture, then something else must be the reason. For most players, this will be the stats. As a note, I was mostly thinking of CrosshairCollie's posts when I made mine, and I specifically was discussing when the culture is the same, regardless of race. If the cultures are the same, if the game ignores culture, or if the players ignore culture and make all races alike, then I personally see no point of even noting which race the character is from. Every character could be from the same race, or every one a different race, and it makes no difference to how they are played culturally. Seems like just calling them all humans is just as easy. But, the different races may have different stats in some game worlds. Dwarves are strong, elves are quick, etc. So if the culture is the same for all races, it seems like stats is a pretty good reason to choose a race. Many of the stats could just as easily be assigned to a human, but it could be each race has special abilities that causes them to be chosen. I'm reminded of my days of playing MUDs. Many different racial choices, which may or may not limit starting characteristics. They rarely had any real affect once you reached hero level. But to see the way they were played, or the way that people described their characters, and you'd think every single one of them was human. I'd much rather be a GM with no players, than a GM with players that have no respect and/or interest in the world I create. Want to play in my world - here's what it looks like. If it doesn't look fun, then no problem - we'll look for another setting. Running a world takes a lot more investment than playing in one. I can happily play in a lot of worlds that I would outright refuse to run. I know I have a limited set of settings that I can run well. I create worlds to make me happy - finding players that also like those worlds is a happy accident.

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat? I'm with Markdoc - if all non-human races are going to be played like they are humans, then they can choose human to start with. After all, if the cat person and bear person and bird person all act alike, then they are mostly likely being chosen based on stats, and they can have humans with those same stats. I'm sure that some pick them just because of the visual difference, but to me that is no different than "do I wear a red or blue cloak?" type choice.

Re: It was a dark and stormy thread I'd like to do scary, but I just can't. I've run undead before, and have them as a primary enemy in a new campaign I'm developing, but they're just opponents. As a GM I just can't do it right - the mood just isn't there.

Re: Destroy Your Geek Cred!! I estimate I have watched a grand total of 5 minutes of Dr Who in my life. I do not plan to ever add to that total. I've read Hitchhiker's Guide, but can't see any real entertainment value in it. I have not read any Harry Potter, nor been to any of the movies. I have seen two on tv, and was only mildly impressed. I just can't get into shows and books with kids and young teens as the main characters. I've seen even less of the Percy Jackson stuff. Haven't played a arcade game in >20 years that I can recall. Have never owned a game console, and don't plan to do so. The newest computer game I own is about 10 years old. While I loved MUDS back in the day, I refuse to play any of the graphical MMORPGs. I will own a smart phone someday....but only because they will eventually stop making real phones. I don't use any social media, and send texts only under duress. If I need the internet, I'll use a desktop computer with a real monitor. I actually prefer to use my phone to actually, you know, talk to people.

Re: Is Speed underpriced? When I started playing Champions, SPD 6 was the default for everyone that had powers, probably because the GM said to aim for it. Everyone took it - there wasn't even any thought about it. That happened long enough that it became the defacto standard, and all our characters designed afterwards used it as the baseline. When we started playing high point characters, SPD 7 became the new standard. Our GM all through college liked a lot of granularity, and wanted many levels between normal humans and top supers. The rules back then assumed 20 was human maximum for most characteristics, but he used 30 before it ever came out in print. For my campaign, I prefer a different feel to the world. Metahumans have powers, but that doesn't mean they react faster. Some do, but many do not. I want there to be metas with super strength, power blasts, etc. that are no more dexterous or speedy than the average person. SPD 1 = infirm, elderly, and early powered armor SPD 2 = average human, most powered armor SPD 3 = trained athlete, typical policeman/soldier/agent, rare alien high tech powered armor SPD 4 = elite human with intensive combat training SPD 5 = must have superpowered explanation to reach this level or above SPD 6 = high powered metahumans Most PCs are assumed to be SPD 3-5, with 4 as the norm. This allows them to act faster than average people, and better than most agents they face. There are no Flash types in the campaign, as I have always disliked that archetype, so I've never worried about defining speedster. I also like the idea of long combats, and characters being able to fight for long periods without tiring. That this is in direct conflict for my want of short, easily resolved combat sessions is an ongoing problem I cannot solve. It's one of thos things that works well in the books, but not in a game.

Re: Teen Fantasy Hero Haven't done it myself (I greatly prefer competent, middle-age characters in any genre), but can see interesting possibilities. The drow mage/cleric/warrior schools in standard D&D would be perfect for this type of thing. If I did do it, it would likely be a bunch of acolytes in some temple learning the ropes and assisting the senior priests in whatever they need done. A beginning fighter type would be allowed as a new temple guard, or the kid of any existing guard.

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat? I think it is more to do with those that like the standard D&D game worlds, and those that think high fantasy is something rather different. While I have often played in a standard D&D type world, I have usually found them to be quite silly, and often they discouraged any serious roleplaying. It isn't high fantasy to me - it's goofy fantasy. I get very serious about world design, history, and culture when I roleplay, and so choose not to participate in dungeon crawls and the lighter aspects. I don't think high fantasy needs any non-human races to be successful. I can be quite happy with just humans, or doing a Norse mashup with just humans, giants, and dwarves, but limiting PCs to humans. There's also often a disagreement between those who look at races from a mechanical vs roleplaying aspect. I personally don't care how many racial templates can be built, or how they differ rules-wise, as that is completely uninteresting to me. I don't want dwarves to be described as grouchy beer guzzlers, but otherwise exactly like humans. If a player can't put significant effort into making them a different race and culture, then I don't want them to try and roleplay them in my games. I do not think non-humans are necessary to declare a story high fantasy, although I'm betting many would dispute this. Human, elf, dwarf as PC eligible races, with the last two being optional, is all I want or need. More than this is overboard. I'll use orc, giant, lizardmen, gnolls, and maybe a couple others as enemies if needed, but can also do a high fantasy campaign where all opponents are humans, undead, and the rare summoned demon. Rather than including every possible race, I'd rather have a small number of highly detailed ones that fit into the overall design.

Re: World with superheroes - Only one power set? Depending on how you define mental powers to work, you could have just those and still have what resembles a pretty standard comic book world. In Julian May's Many Colored Land series, psionics is broken down into 5 categories: creativity (energy and matter manipulation), psychokinesis (standard TK and force fields), redaction (mental and physical healing), coercion (mind control), and farsensing (clairvoyance, telepathy). So, just with this you can have the standard FISS types, mentalists, and energy blasters.

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat? My preference is 1 race - humans. While there may or may not be non-human races out there, they ain't PCs. If a player is capable of playing a different race, I may allow either dwarf or elf (and they must be the Tolkien versions), but not both. And if this is allowed, then interaction with that race will be a major part of the campaign. Gnomes and halflings do not exist, and neither do orcs and monsters of good alignment. I'll play in another campaign that does any of these things, but I won't run them as a GM. I never have valley, high, dark, wood, etc., elves. There are just elves. I don't see a need for different stat blocks for each area of settlement, as there is too much overlap. Sure, there may be some minor differences in body types, but it is the cultural differences that matter. And for the average human, they can't tell the difference between the different elves anyway, because they have only ever met one of them. I also try to limit the number of human cultures the players can come from. Everyone is from the local dominant culture - no bringing a samurai to a Viking game.

Re: Bells and Whistles and Experience Points I'm the opposite - I would never allow spending points on the fly. If the character knew how to speak a little Spanish, it should have been noted on the character sheet when it was created. Same thing with every other skill and power. You don't get to rewrite your character just because it would be handy. Background and history already happened - it cannot be changed. I'm big on having a very detailed and comprehensive background created for every PC - if the player won't write it, I will. As long as the background story makes sense, I'll allow anything in it that the player wants, but they don't get to keep adding to the background story once play starts. If they wanted to try and use a related skill with a penalty tacked on, that's okay. I would allow the Hebrew skill to be used with a penalty to understand Arabic, for example. I'm usually good with buying Detective 12-, and playing it as all the various things a detective would know, rather than separate skills for deduction, forensics, judicial system, local law, etc., so I do expect some skill substitution to be used.

Re: Team Building I would never design two versions of a character to model solo and team play. I find the idea so bad that I'd seriously consider not playing in any world that did such. (An aside: I find *way* too many things unacceptable for proper gaming - I need to loosen up.) Comic book writers often do not agree on how to write a character, but that doesn't mean I need to design them that way. I do not require that all team members be equally capable, so do not see a need to nerf a character just because they are in a team. If equal capability is important to the players (I've yet to meet any that thought it anything but highest importance), then they need to design them that way from the start. As for teams, I pretty much make all team gear be free. Design the characters, then give me a list of what the team wants. If it is logical and possible given the characters, then they can have it. If the gear makes them more effective, then I just use better opponents. I suppose it could be listed on the character sheets as perks, package deals, or shared equipment, but I'm too easy-going about it to care. As long as it is noted on the character sheet, I don't care if it was part of the original character design, borrowed from another character, or from the warehouse of never-ending equipment.

Re: Why Don't The Villains Kill? Because the writer and/or company doesn't want them to. No other reason. If the vicious drug cartel somehow manages to get lucky enough to get the drop on SuperGuy, they would kill him, just like they have killed many before. But, the company doesn't want this, and so they don't. It isn't about what the villains believe or fear might happen, it's just a meta business thing. No different than the heroes never accidentally punch someone too hard and break a neck, and heroes without any armor never get shot, and heroes never have an actual affect on crime. It's just the way it is, regardless of how silly it is. Like Egyptoid, my villains do kill on occasion. Not all do, but some do, because some criminals are just that way.