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Howdy @klecserand welcome to Hero. Champions Begins is kind of a starter set approach to the game that was made to introduce Hero to new players. Champions Complete is a one-and-done kind of rulebook that fleshes out Champions Begins a bit more and brings in the full options of a Hero-based game. I would take a look at Champions Complete if able to see which option works best for you. There are some great sections of the boards here that are designed for questions and answers if you have any. I hope you enjoy.

Hasbro has about as much to do with Green Ronin as Hero does with Marvel. In it's current edition, M&M looks more like DC Heroes or Hero than D&D. The only thing they really have in common are the "roll vs. a difficulty" mechanic that was also popular with d6 and a few other games back in the '80s and '90s. Was M&M branched off from d20? Sure. But it doesn't really look like it anymore.

I would definitely reiterate that Mutants & Masterminds is THE d20 supers game for the most part. There are and has been others, but M&M seems to have some lasting power behind it. That said, a lot of why it's so popular is because it incorporates other games as well. If you look carefully through its three editions, you can see the games it was built upon, including Champions, Villains & Vigilantes, Marvel, and DC Heroes. I don't know if I'd call Green Ronin a HUGE company. Last I knew, I think there may be eight or ten people really working on things, with the bulk of their employees being freelancers. The thing they know how to do is market their games well (as well as a few other things I've mentioned in a different thread). They have a series of adventures (that will be collected I'm sure), a new book on locations (which was originally PDFs), villain books, etc. Plus they've had a thriving open license for third party publishers to create content.

I wouldn't mind a 7th ed, but I'd really like to see them do what 5th ed D&D did as far as the rules go. Not an evolution of 6e, but rather taking the previous 6 editions, determining what worked, what didn't and making a better game from that. Yes to new color artwork, but also good layout and clean pages that are easy to read, and easy to navigate quickly. I don't think we need monthly releases, but I would LOVE to see Adventurer's Club return as an e-zine (and as print collections). I also think it's important to see "easy entry" books released, like a starter set or a theme set for specific events. A great example is to make a boxed set that has the rules, barebones experience, and player-navigation sheets to help them play the game (along with some other fun stuff). Recruit demo teams to help run as well. The buyer fatigue has a lot to do with shoving editions out every five years, as well as a glut of material that still has yet to come out. One of the most important things to remember is to have the books at the printer before announcing anything.

Sure, technically any game isn't truly "dead." I mean, even FATAL has fans. And I definitely think that folks running the game in public places would bring in people. But, IMHO, the game needs a refresher before that happens. It needs to be attractive to new players, and be able to pull in old players. Totally agree. The redesign of C&S is a step in the right direction.

As a big fan of 4th ed., I don't know if 3rd ed. is where I would start, Scott. But it is a great base. I would also add a solid space opera kind of game. Keep it a bit tool box, but make it more like a hand held one rather than a giant roller box. Something else that would be handy are some threads for regular builds. Much like having a thread that keeps a consistent superhero theme (characters built in the same manner, or even an expanded Champions Powers thread), maybe have something with a living grimoire, or starship bay where people could deposit the same ideas that follow the same build concepts. Like making spells with a "Spell (-1/2)" limitation that defines specifics that could be combined (like requires spell components, or requires studying). A resource like that would be incredibly handy for players old and new.

Funny thing about the books... they're both on Amazon and DTRPG as POD products. Both companies offer hardcover IIRC. I did some research while looking into my own publishing needs and found it funny that the HC volumes weren't offered as such. And, as you've seen, you're not alone in the format and layout of the books.

What can be done? Well, I think some of the topics some of us have covered in this post might help. In all honesty, some of this has little to do with the company, and more to do with the community. There's a tonality which can be inflected in the posts here. A great example is telling folks how to run their game, or that this "needs" to happen. When did we get to the point where someone is going to tell anyone how to run a game? Sure... if someone asks "Hey, I don't know what I'm doing, could someone help me run this?" then that's implied. But asking how to build something? Heck, even asking for feedback on point costs have occasionally drifted in "you shouldn't use that character." What gives X person the right to tell Y person what their game is? Tonally, this is what makes the community seem toxic. I've been playing Hero since the mid-80s on and off, and I'm usually intrigued to see how someone might build this or that, no matter how long they've been playing, or what their preferred version is. But when folks just crap on ideas because they don't like it? Not even interested in a response. Long story short... you want new players? Be better ambassadors to your system. This board used to be a welcoming place, but that was a while ago. Show people why Hero is a great system, and that the community can be better.

Yes. I have the book. I have not read a copy of your iteration of the IDD and could not give feedback specifically on that. But, in regards to the Champions (6e) book, beyond the occasional comic panel, how is it that different from the "Twins" in format?

I have the books. They do not look like that. *shrug*

Heck, I'd be happy of they allowed it through DTRPG.

The books are too dry. Look at the formatting that Scott and I posted and tell me what Hero book looks like that? 6e did not look anything like it. It was a move in the right direction, but only 1" in the Megascale market that exists. Nothing against Steve, but many of the books are inflated that really don't need to be. In today's marketplace, a book needs to grab customers visually as well as mechanically. Oh, it's not just the artwork. In fact, the times when someone has said, "that artwork sucks" and I was privy to it, I was more than happy to confront the poster (both on and off these boards). My honest problem is how approachable the community is as a whole. I used to be able to come on here and ask a build question and get some fun answers and discussion. Now I get "you shouldn't do that in your game" or some other snarky response because someone doesn't like a playstyle. Screw that. Why would I ever ask a rule question again? So I can watch a simple question turn into a lecture on playstyles? Or the "right way to play your game"? No thanks. It's one of the reasons I don't post here as much and left the Discord community.

There's another thread somewhere on here where I put up some images on some ideas I was working on, Christopher. Unfortunately, any plans I have at this point to make products using the Hero system have been back shelved due to some of the reasons I stated above. To be honest, I've had some solid ideas for the past decade and I always tend to shelve them after visiting the boards.

Nope. It's a great attempt, but the stat blocks really need to be more dynamic. One of the biggest problems and benefits from Hero is how character stats are laid out. Color is nice, but there needs to be a better way to represent stats IMHO. Well, as a 3PP for M&M, I was making okay money off my little 3-4 page PDFs for 99¢ that included bio, stats and an illustration. But, I was also doing most of the writing, art, design and marketing, while my wife worked as editor. I have to agree with Scott here. Not everyone can create art, work on page design, or write on a professional level. I think this was the advantage of Adventurer's Club and Digital HERO. It gave potential creators a chance to get their feet wet and see what they could create in a specific area. I was lucky enough to do some art and writing for DH, and even worked on a few covers before it ended. Even Haymaker had some great opportunities for others to work on projects and gain proper feedback. That said, I totally think that someone could create books on their own given the proper skills and creative mind. Will their art look like the next Jim Lee or George Perez? Probably not, but you never know. One of the biggest issues I've found within this community is how judgmental it can be. You want adventures? Great. But give folks a break for at least getting something out there. I can't tell you how many times I've had to defend my art on this board alone unless it was free. And even then I got guff from some folks. Heck, even asking questions on here have occasionally set off a "you're not doing it right" vibe. It's awesome that we are all able to sit in comfort and lambaste folks you don't even know for shucks and chucks. TL;DR - Maybe if the community was more accepting and open to new ideas, there might be more 3PP books to choose from.

I respectfully disagree about the rule books. Beyond appearance, content really could be cut down a bit and organized better IMHO. In addition to Scott's examples, I present some layout from Mutants & Masterminds...

In the same respect, the game needs to be made more accessible as rulebooks as well, and be something game stores would carry. We can make adventures till the dice roll all 6s, but unless there's a solid rulebook behind them, no one will use them.

Well, with the limited experience I've had as a third party publisher for other games, I can't entirely agree with everything said. There are plenty of artists and designers out there who are excellent, and that charge fair fees for their work. When I worked for Hero or Blackwyrm, I wasn't making hand over fist, but it was a fair rate. I agree, Scott. It's a shame, as I've always wanted to run some Star Hero, DI, or Fantasy Hero over the years, but my players really only wanted to play Champions in Hero. I've found that no one wants to put in work to make spells, or to manage a ship. Damn shame.

You can find them on sites occasionally in print for a reasonable price. I think I paid $15 for a copy of DI last year in pretty good condition. Pathfinder books are gorgeous. And sure, they cost money, but better looking books could mean better sales. Agreed. That's one of the sacrifices I was referring to. Organization, format, lack of line branding... don't get me wrong, it was a move in the right direction, but it needed more. Yup. This is where branding is so important. When I look at my shelf, I usually know what I'm looking for by the spine. Heck, look at the latest Star Wars game: three core books, each with a line related to it in branded colors. I played a LOT of 1e Pathfinder, and it was mainly due to innovative ideas (I'm looking at you Pawns and Maps) and attractive, well organized books. IMHO, Hero needs a revamped stat block that is easy to follow and has a nice aesthetic about it.

For me, this is where elements of a Threshold-style of roll. Determine a number to "win the scene" and have players roll along with role playing. If they score under their required check, take the difference and subtract that from the Threshold. If they miss the roll, it could be added to it. If they role play well enough, they could get a bonus. Alternatively, you could also assign a "skill roll" to the challenge and roll against it to give minuses to the character's checks, making it more difficult depending on the situation. Personally, Scott, I think all three elements are highly subjective and based on everyone's personally experience. I can tell by reading your post that you and I have had vastly different games of Champions (as well as other games), but neither of us have an invalidated opinion. I've ran games using both Titans and X-Men as inspiration and the only limits I've seen are ones imposed by the characters/players themselves. Yes, you may be playing a mutant hated by a close-minded society, but the real challenge there is open minds and show that you're true heroes. The same can be said about Titans/Warriors/Young Avengers/<insert teen group here>. As for the future books of Hero in whatever edition it becomes, I've always been a fan of 4th ed Champions, and that's when I think Hero hit its sweet spot. The rules were put together well, the presentation was easy to read, and, for the time, it looked like a superhero book. I would've loved to have seen a Danger International at the time, and other campaign-based games over generic "X Hero" books. Should the game condense or become simpler? I don't think it should do either. Rather the game has to become approachable again. Champions 1-4 (and the other games that comprised the Hero System at the time) were different in presentation, and in system. Some of the games had more narrow selections, such as Justice Inc's power system, while others were broader like Champions. When I say "emulate a book like Mutants & Masterminds," I'm not saying make the system more like it (though there are things Champions could learn from it). I'm saying look at the quality of the books and how they're put together. Hugh is also kind of correct in the use of Hero Points, which is pretty easy to include in the game. IMHO, Hero isn't broke, it just needs some polish and maybe some modern parts to help it shine again. Champions Complete was a step in the right direction, but it sacrificed a lot in the process. Along with this, there needs to be continued support in the form of other books... powers books, enemies, campaign material, etc. The books that exist for Champions 6e look like a different creature than Champions Complete. The same can be said about other genres. I've always wanted a Star Hero Guide to Starships that took something like Ryan Wolfe's Future Armada stuff and gave us nice stats and info. Or even expanding on Fantasy Hero a bit more with a Pathfinder-esque bestiary.

For product lines, I'd love to see a "Campaign Setting" Starter Box, "Campaign Setting" Rule Book (see Champions 4e), "Campaign Setting GM Guide", and additional books that expand out "Campaign Setting." So, using Champions as an example... Champions Starter Box hits first with limited rules, then the Champions book with all the rules you need, Champions Villain Master Guide that gives additional rules and philosophy to run a Champions game, then Enemies books, Adventure books, Build books (Champions Powers, for example), etc. This could be done for a variety of settings... "Fantasy Hero World," "Danger International," "Star Hero World," etc. I would avoid having "Hero System" anything books. I just don't see the need if the rule books are already giving you want you need. I didn't need the Hero System Rulebook back in 4e, I just used Champions.

Modern Design Philosophy, to me at least, is emulating the genre you're depicting. Look at several of the games on the market these days... D&D, Pathfinder, various 2d20 systems, Mutants & Masterminds, etc. Many of these games have a sleek design that incorporates color well, and emulates the genre they're set in. Font choices come into play here, as do layout designs, stat block design, images... the overall construction of the book looks pleasing to the eye, and, in some cases more interesting. Pathfinder is a big stand out for me. While I don't play 2nd ed or Starfinder, the books are gorgeous! Easily something you can just flip through and get some basic ideas behind the game visually. I just don't see that in Hero, no matter the book I look at. I wouldn't mind seeing a 7e Hero, but I'd like to see some vast changes in how some of the rules work. Up until now, we've had a rework of a rework of a rework of the same rule for the most part. Sure they changed figured characteristics, and some powers, and this and that. I'd like to see bigger changes, personally. Rather than an "or less" roll, I'd love to have a "higher than" check instead. I'd like to see the universes reworked and modernized a bit, and while I love the toolkit feel of the game, I'd like to see a return of the setting + rules. Champions, Espionage, Justice Inc. and others of its time is how I came into Hero, and I'd love to see full books "Powered by Hero" rather than just a toolkit. But most of all, I'd like to see Hero back on store shelves and people talking about it more. This is really the primary place to talk Hero. In many circles that I'm in, the game is almost an anathema, with a few of us being the old fools that try to get people to play. The game needs a shot in the arm, and to become something big again. I never thought I'd say this, but gods do I miss the '90s!

I have some issues with the presentation as well. But mine are related more to the graphic design of the books, which really should be updated to a more modern philosophy. 6e was a great attempt, but the stat blocks and general page layout needs work. As for the background, it's time for a Crisis of Champions Earths.

You said "a hammer like Thor's" which is why I responded the way I did. I must've missed the "not be able to be taken away" @Spence.

But the hammer can be taken away from Thor. For a while, it was a pretty reoccurring event. I'd taken a page from Mutants & Masterminds and created a modifier on Focus called "Restricted" that is either +1/4 for a wide restriction, or +1/2 for a narrow restriction.

Icons struck me as "FASERIP meets SAGA meets FATE" in its construction. Not a bad game, but a bit quick and interpretive. My favorite version of Hero has always been 4th ed. The rules were a tad less crunchier, the game had a slew of content, and it was when I ran it the most.