Fedifensor

We had a character in one Champions campaign called Trebuchet, who had Shrinking, Usable As Attack, Only To Decrease Mass, Linked to Grab.   I think it was 2 levels of shrinking, and may have had increased mass added to it for grabbing large objects. Since Trebuchet was a 60 STR brick, she could throw things VERY far.

Well, it's a post-apocalyptic game.  The PCs won't encounter machines very often...but when they do, communicating with a machine can be VERY helpful.  Many automated defenses could be bypassed with the right uses of Telepathy.  Most PCs don't have much knowledge of the language of the Ancients...but Telepathy bypasses language barriers.

This game defines machine class of minds as computers and A.I.  Looking at our modern society, there are mini-processors embedded in all sorts of devices...which could be scanned with Telepathy versus the machine class of minds.  They may not have much info to give...but what they do have in their memory is accessible with Telepathy.

There's a character in my upcoming post-apocalyptic game that can communicate with machines (Telepathy versus the machine class of minds).  I was originally going to suggest taking Does Not Provide Mental Awareness...but I do want him to be aware of mental powers that target machines.  Do any of you restrict Mental Awareness by the Class of Minds the power targets?

On 5/7/2021 at 12:28 PM, Ninja-Bear said:

I can appreciate having gudience. I thought I was giving guidance. Have you looked at the example of building a custom power slipperiness? He gives guidelines.

I appreciate the suggestion.  However, it's a bit different than guidance...

Suggestion:  "Weapon Master for 20 points and it covers all the Weapon Familiarities? Done."

Guidance:  "Buying all the Group WFs (Melee, Martial Arts Melee, Missile, Siege Engines, Early Firearms, Small Arms, Emplaced Weapons) costs a total of 14 points.  While it can be difficult to estimate how many individual Weapon Familiarities will come up during the course of a campaign, more than 3 or 4 seems unlikely.  You could charge 17 or 18 points, but rounding up to 20 to make sure everything is covered and to give a simple number may be best.  You could also make subsets based on smaller categories (WF: All Melee for 8 pts, WF: All Personal Weapons for 15 points, etc)."

I can ballpark a figure easily enough.  What I need is the rationale on how that figure was determined, and why it is reasonable.

I did a quick scan through my 5ER and 6E Hero core books, and didn't see the Slipperiness example.  Can you let me know where to find it?

On 5/5/2021 at 9:38 PM, Ninja-Bear said:

I think you’re missing the point of Universal Translator. In fifth (as with all Talents) Steve Long broke them down as how to build them as various Skills and Powers. This is the reason that UT has a skill roll because now it’s based on Detect. However unless you really wanted too, UT doesn’t require a roll at all-it works as you would expect it to work. And that comes back to the Absolute Rule. The GM decides how much an ability is worth builds it as needed and BAM it works the way the GM declares it. Weapon Master for 20 points and it covers all the Weapon Familiarities? Done.  This is the principle of some of the adders were built too. Accurate Leap? So instead of spending Movement Skill Levels to offset Leap (which I think is 6 or more points) the GM declared 5 pt adder and is done. Do you have 5th Revised? (Cause I’m not sure not sure if it’s in 5th) The concept is explained in creating new Powers and Custom Adders.

Well, sure.  The GM can make whatever they want for the game.  But the point of HERO as a toolkit is guidance with the process. 

We have guidance on how to use Detect to understand languages...but no guidance is given on how to use powers to communicate what you're saying to another being.  Likewise, we don't have any guidance on setting upper limits for points spent on Weapon Familiarities.  Is 20 points too much for a Heroic campaign?  What about a Superheroic campaign?  That's the sort of help I'm looking for as a gamemaster.

Buying a focus that gives a bonus to a skill can have a double benefit if it is also what is required by default to use the skill without penalty.  Like others have said, I assume the character has the necessary tools to perform a skill unless there is an in-game reason saying otherwise.

Languages:  As mentioned earlier, Universal Translator isn't a full replacement for Language, and using a VPP is like hammering in a nail with a sledgehammer - possible, but likely messy.  If Power Frameworks aren't allowed in your game, you're back to buying all the Languages.

2 minutes ago, eepjr24 said:

Do you mean for the CSL's? Steve has indicated it's not legal to buy "OCV only" or "DCV only" for CSL's, but I'm not sure why you would want to anyway. Just buy limited OCV at that point for 4 points each? It's cheaper and it makes more sense.

Honestly, if it's not in the book or an official errata I can download, I ignore it.  I have better things to do than scour these boards looking for Word of Steve.  It's great that there is added guidance available for those who want it, but I need quickly accessible rules if an issue comes up during a game.  Plus, I'm using 5E for this game, which doesn't have purchasable OCV (unless I buy DEX with limitations).

2 minutes ago, eepjr24 said:

Universal Translator already exists. 

Universal Translator, at least in 5E, is not a full replacement for language.  You can "understand any form of communication" and "communicate back in a crude fashion".  It also requires an INT roll, while language is automatic (up to the amount of fluency).  There should be a full replacement or a language cost cap, since there are over 70 languages on the Language Familiarity table for 5E.  Without spending a lot of time on language similarity, you could easily end up paying over 200 points, which even in a cosmic level game is a large expense to be Cypher of the New Mutants.

2 minutes ago, eepjr24 said:

Talents can be created for exactly the purpose you describe. Weapon Savante in my games would cost at most 10 points, 3 OCV bought as "Only to counter weapon familiarity penalties". I'm waffling between -1/2 and -1 on that, probably start with -1/2 (10 points) and if that did not unbalance up it to -1 (7 points).

Well, that's basically what I'm doing in my game.  I don't really call it a Talent per se - I just throw the points down on the sheet, see if it looks right, and call it good.  Whether someone wants to call it a Skill, Talent, or Power doesn't make much difference to me as long as it has the desired effect.  5E allows Penalty Skill Levels to be used for that purpose, so it's 9 points, no limitation needed.  I'm honestly not sure why it was so important to exclude Penalty Skill Levels from negating unfamiliar weapon penalties in 6E, since the final cost with your method is about the same...or even a bit cheaper.

28 minutes ago, IndianaJoe3 said:

Ambidexterity is specifically built as PSLs offsetting the off-hand penalty (6e1 447). Did you mean that they couldn't be used to offset penalties for lack of weapon familiarities?

 It should be pointed out that while this is true in 6E (cannot offset unfamiliar weapon penalties), it does not appear to be true for 5th edition - my 5ER rulebook has nothing on the subject.  I doubt it matters much, unless you have some sort of weapon savant who would normally spend more than 9 points on Weapon Familiarities, or if you just want the Jackie Chan ability to use anything as a weapon.  That said, offsetting the penalty doesn't give you the ability to buy Weapon Elements with unfamiliar weapons for Martial Arts, at least in Heroic campaign (pg 400 5ER).

For 6E, the workaround is to buy 3 Levels with All Combat and figure out how much of a limitation Only To Offset Weapon Familiarity Penalties is (-1?).  You'll also have to talk to your GM about letting you buy Weapon Elements if you use Martial Arts.

This is an area where I would like to see 'caps' on certain things in HERO, instead of an endless descent into minutia.  Say that a flat expenditure of points (say, 20?) gives you Weapon Familiarity with every known weapon, or you can play a flat fee based on the scope of the campaign to know all Languages, etc.  I don't know if anyone has calculated how much it would cost to buy everything on the Language Familiarity Table with all discounts included, but I have better things to do with my time. 

37 minutes ago, eepjr24 said:

Limitations are calculated by how frequently the limitation will come into play, not by the pricing of other powers. But it's your game, set it to whatever you want.

I suppose if I want to be completely accurate, it's two limitations - OCV only (-1/4) and Only To Offset Penalties (-1/4).  You can't use the levels to offset DCV penalties.  That adds up to -1/2.

Regarding the change in Champions Complete - I guess that's why Hero System is described as a toolkit, and not a bible.

1 hour ago, eepjr24 said:

I have not seen CSL's bought the way you are talking about and would look askance at much of a limitation since there is an existing method for doing it in the book already. If I did allow it it would count against OCV cap (PSL's don't for me generally) and would not be more than -1/4 since there is generally SOME penalty you are trying to offset with anything you are shooting at (range and targeting being the most common). 

1 Combat Skill Level with All Combat costs 8 points.  1 Penalty Skill Level with Any Attack is 3 points.  I could buy 1 each of range and targeting penalty skill levels for the same price as 1 combat skill level with a -1/4 limitation, and have double the benefit.  Based on that, I think a -1/2 is more in line.  If you aren't getting OCV bonuses, no amount of penalty skill levels will help you hit a target with a significantly higher DCV.

1 hour ago, eepjr24 said:

The first part of your sentence is true, the second is not. I have not seen a published example of DPSL's for "fighting in any environment". You can buy DPSL's to offset a "group of related conditions", for example "Slippery Surfaces" would cover ice, grease and a friction reduction field. 

Champions Complete, pg 33:

Cost 2 - A single condition (e.g. +1 vs. Encumbrance, +1 vs. fighting underwater)

Cost 3 - A group of conditions (e.g. +1 vs. fighting in any environment)

9 hours ago, eepjr24 said:

As many as the GM decides exist.

 

No. On the order of operations table halving and setting to a value occur last. There's a post by Steve on this one if you want to look it up.

On 6e 84 it spells out pretty clearly that you cannot apply PSL's to more than one specific penalty. So above you would need two different OPSL's to counteract vertigo and wind, although the might be cause from a single type of power or even a single instance of a power (if the CE in question caused both wind and vertigo, for instance, although in that case they would not stack you would just take the highest remaining penalty after OPSL's applied).

It seems uncharacteristic for Hero System to not have penalties codified.  I suppose I could hunt and peck through the entire combat chapter and try to come up with a list of all the non-Power types of OCV penalties.  However, at that point, it becomes easier just to buy X number of Combat Skill Levels with a limitation Only To Offset Penalties.  That seems simpler than messing with Penalty Skill Levels, and will probably end up being cheaper if trying to cover a wide variety of effects.  Is there any existing example of such a limitation in 5E or 6E, and if so what is the value?

Interestingly, while 6E does state the requirement of one specific penalty for PSLs involving OCV, you can have PSLs for DCV that can cover a group of conditions, like fighting in any environment.

In case anyone was curious, I'm trying to come up with a character balanced for play that is inspired by Cas Russell from Zero Sum Game.  I could either give the character an obnoxious CV, or I could use PSLs and/or limited Combat Skill Levels to let her do things like bouncing a bullet off a wall to hit someone in the head behind full cover.  The latter method would still allow the character to miss shots, but even the most difficult shots would be possible.

These questions are for a 5th edition game, but I suspect they apply equally to 6th.

Penalty Skill Levels can be used to reduce or counteract a specific type of negative OCV modifier.  Examples include Range Skill Levels, Targeting Skill Levels, and Throwing Skill Levels.  How many other types of negative OCV modifiers are in the rules? 

Can you use Penalty Skill Levels to offset a penalty that changes your OCV by a multiplier or drops it to 0 (such as the penalties for Lack of Senses in Combat, pg 349 5ER). 

Are Change Environment (wind field) giving a -2 OCV and Change Environment (vertigo field) giving a -2 OCV considered to be both under Change Environment, or are they considered different types of penalties for purpose of Penalty Skill Levels?  In other words, are penalties categorized by rule mechanics, or by special effect, or some other rationale?

Given the discussion points made, and that Change Environment does have the option to be made permanent, I'm going with Change Environment, with the general stipulation that the power removes 1 rad per second (segment).  Here's a few examples:

10  Anti-Radiation Decon Wand:  Change Environment 1" radius (Long-Lasting Permanent) (25 Active Points); OAF (-1), No Range (-1/2), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 1 Hour (-0)

20  Renew The Land (Mutant Power):  Change Environment 2" radius (Long-Lasting Permanent) (30 Active Points); No Range (-1/2)

9 minutes ago, Derek Hiemforth said:

 

The same applies in 5E (5ER, pg. 137).  But my take is clearly the minority take, which is fine.  Ultimately, if you think the effect and the cost and everything are appropriate, that's all that counts.   

Technically, this Change Environment isn't providing a positive effect to the character in terms of game mechanics.  They are not receiving any OCV, skill rolls, or anything else that will directly help them.  What the power is doing is countering an environmental effect that would give the character a negative effect over time (which results in damage only when it hits a threshold).  Plus, if you defined the radiation as a Change Environment effect doing low-level damage, the GM can allow one Change Environment effect to cancel or negate a similar Change Environment power.

24 minutes ago, Derek Hiemforth said:

 

Maybe I'm making invalid assumptions. I figured that background radiation was a general constant in this post-apocalyptic world.  I was envisioning that the area "cleansed" by this power/device would only be radiation-free while the power/device was in effect, and that after the power/device was gone, the usual environmental condition of general irradiation would return.  In that scenario, I do still think Life Support is better than CE.  I know the SFX you're building are technically applying to the location rather than the people, but if the end result is that the location is going to go back to being irradiated, then the game effect of it seems to be that people and things within the area of effect are immune to radiation while it's there. 

 

I guess my main objection to CE is this line from the power description (CC, pg. 53):  "Change Environment cannot provide “positive” effects or bonuses for any character. However, a character can have a Change Environment power that creates a pleasant effect, provided the power has no beneficial effect in game terms."

 

I feel like clearing an area of radiation (or providing those within it with immunity to radiation, however you look it), would be a positive effect that is beneficial in game terms.   

I probably should have stated up front that my game is using 5E, though I have the books for 6E as well.  5ER states the following about the difference between Change Environment and Transform:

Quote

Although Change Environment and Transform have some similarities, there are important differences between them.  Change Environment creates relatively subtle effects over a large area, and its changes are rarely permanent or long-lasting.  Transform creates a drastic change in a very limited area (just one target, usually), and its effects often last for a long time.

This is a case where the effects ARE subtle, though it may not seem like it.  Low-level radiation won't kill you in an hour or a day, but it will slowly kill you over time - just ask Madame Curie!  This effect, as written, removes the long-term complications of radiation.  While the changes from Change Environment aren't usually long-lasting...that's specifically why I was going to use the +20 adder to make it permanent.

A ballpark figure is that the field would remove 1 rad per second.  That's nothing in a radiation field doing damage in combat time, but it will clear up radiation sufficient to hit a lethal threshold (300 rads for a 10 CON character) in about 5 minutes.  In the presence of 1 gram of Plutonium, the characters would be getting rads as fast as the field dissipates them, while an unshielded Reactor Core would result in a net gain of 6999 rads/second instead of 7000/second.  A character with this mutant power could slowly reclaim pockets of irradiated land for use...but it would take lifetimes to purge the area hit by one bomb.

My thought is that Change Environment wouldn't be able to cancel out a direct radiation source (plutonium, reactor core, strong fallout), but would cancel out radiation on irradiated objects below a set rad count.  This is mainly to keep PCs and their items from being radioactive long-term after going through a radiation zone.  My game is straddling the line between realistic radiation (it can be lethal) and unrealistic radiation (it can cause fictional mutations both beneficial and horrific).  This is  per the 5E Post-Apocalyptic Hero book, page 74.  I'm not a fan of tracking specific rad counts, but it is a guideline the book gives.

I didn't get to see Tjack's post, but I'm not sure how Life Support works for this, unless getting LS: High Radiation even briefly is considered to permanently remove the radiation.

I'm working on a post-apocalyptic Hero game (Gamma HERO) where there are mutant powers and pre-apocalypse high-tech artifacts.  I'd like to make either a mutant power or a device that acts as an "anti-rad" field, decontaminating the immediate area so that radiation is reduced or removed, sort of like a decontamination chamber.  It wouldn't heal radiation damage, but it would remove existing radiation so that irradiated objects or people would be cleansed.  I realize that this could be done with a Transform, but that seems a bit much (especially considering how much Transform you would need to change a 20 BODY human).

I was thinking of doing this with Change Environment, using the Long-Lasting adder at the +20 point level to make it permanent.  Is this within the bounds of what Change Environment can do?

I've played in some of Bill Keyes' Hero games at local conventions, and he did a great job creating thematic sheets showing only what the players needed to play the characters during the adventure.  I think there's a good argument for creating two character sheets for each character - one to use during play, and another to "show the math" that makes the character work.

I'm close to finally (over 10 years later) having a second go at Gamma World HERO!

Here's some streamlined stat blocks of possible foes to encounter:

Wabbids
STR 5, DEX 13, SPD 3, OCV 5, DCV 8
PD/rPD 4/1, ED/rED 3/1, CON 5, BODY 6, STUN 12
Bite (1d6+1 K, reduced penetration - avg 12 STUN, 2x2 BODY, +2 OCV vs hit location penalties)
Camouflage (Invisibility, only when not moving), Nightvision.
5" Run, 7" Jump
Perception 12- (14- hearing), Concealment 14-, Stealth 16-
These are carnivorous rabbits the size of small dogs, that can blend into their surroundings.

Badclaws
STR 10, DEX 13, SPD 3, OCV 4, DCV 6
PD/rPD 6/2 (Hardened), ED/rED 4/2, CON 11, BODY 11, STUN 22
Claw (1d6+1K AP - avg 12 STUN, 4 BODY) or by weapon
Nightvision
5" Run, Tunneling 2" vs DEF 6
Perception 11-, Concealment 13-, Stealth 14-
Badclaws are 1 meter tall humanoid badgers with exceptionally-sharp claws and humanlike fingers.  Their skin is resistant to their own claws and similar attacks.

Brushers / Coys
STR 13, DEX 13, SPD 3, OCV 4, DCV 5
PD/rPD 6/2, ED/rED 4/2, CON 13, BODY 13, STUN 28
Bite (1 1/2d6K, reduced penetration, avg 15 STUN, 3+2 BODY)
Enhanced Senses (Tracking and Targeting for Smell)
9" Run
Perception 12- (15- smell), Concealment 14-, Stealth 14-
Brushers are mutated coyotes.  They often function as mounts or hunting partners for Badclaws.

Brute Squad
STR 25, DEX 11, SPD 2, OCV 4, DCV 2
PD/rPD 12/4, ED/rED 10/4, CON 18, BODY 18, STUN 40
War Club (7d6N - avg 24 STUN, 7 BODY) or Rock (5d6 N, +2 OCV vs range, avg 17 STUN, 5 BODY)
+1" Reach, -3" KB, Regeneration 1 BODY/Hour
9" Run
Perception 10-

Mutated humans acting as muscle for hire in the Blasted Lands.

Stargazer Cultists
STR 12, DEX 11, SPD 3, OCV 4, DCV 4. 1 combat level
PD/rPD 6/3, ED/rED 6/3, CON 11, BODY 12, STUN 25
Club (4d6N - avg 14 STUN, 4 BODY), Bolt-Thrower (1d6+1K, +2 OCV vs range, avg 12 STUN, 4 BODY)
Some cultists may have minor beneficial mutations - add as needed
6" Run
Perception 11-, Climbing 11-, Riding 11-, Survival 11-, Teamwork 11-, KS: Stargazers 11-
A religious cult that believes the tech of the ancients to be responsible for the Apocalypse.
 

I've given up on the idea of running this for my normal gaming group (they're too tied to D&D), but I may try reviving my play by post game if time permits and I find a good host site to use.  It would probably be 5th edition, if for no other reason than my previous work is all in 5th.

There was an X-Men: The Next Generation game run by MilkmanDan that I'd be interested in reading, if this is still available.

I haven't seen much activity in Clubs, but I'll take another look.  Thanks!

Hero Central, a place online where you could play various flavors of Hero in a play by post format, has been gone for a long time (since 2014, if I remember correctly).  For those of you who played on Hero Central, did you move your games elsewhere, or just stop playing in that format?  Are there any current sites out there that function as a replacement?

If you don’t mind PDF, Bundle of Holding has deals on 6E content (and 6E Champions) through tomorrow.