Tasha

That tends to happen in any discussion of fundamental mechanics, and in any discussion of anything else.  

Hello, Hugh!  
 
Thanks for joining in!
 
I don't know how much more will be gleaned: I've pretty much said all I have to say on the subject-- well, that's not quite true.  I have re-stated my own opinions related to the exact topics of "what might attract new players."  Several other points have been brought up or alluded to, but I don't know that the time will ever be right (or available) to chase every single one of those down and address them. 
 
You make an interesting point here:
 
 
and I don't think it has ever been addressed in any of these discussions.  On the chance that you are opinion shopping, I will offer mine:
 
We need new players and new GMs willing to pick up and learn this game.  New blood-- new customers.  One to keep the game alive, and one to maybe one day keep the company alive.  Eh-- I am a product of a capitalist environment, I suppose.  I don't _like_ it, but it's where I came from: it's not instinctive to separate the product from the producer.  I'm working on it, but it's still not instinctive. 
 
At any rate, I don't think a few new players to existing tables is going to help matters.  The bulk of current HERO players seem to be long-time players, and all seem to have gravitated more toward the minigames of building every detail of the universe, or every detail of a magic system, or every possible permutation of published characters--
 
that is, they have fallen in love with the math itself, sometimes to the detriment of the game.  They have taken the minutiae of the rules and now occupy themselves by spending long discussions and pages of writing to iron out those tiny details----
 
Crud.  How's the best way to say this?   Let me try this:
 
I don't think it is going to be helpful in the long run to have new players attracted to the game system (because we all agree, I think, that there is no actual game here as it is presented) only to have them drink from the very well that poisoned the game.  It's counter-productive.
 
I think we need new play groups of new people using complete games extracted from the system.  I think those systems should bear simple indications that they were built using a larger, more complicated system, and invite them to check out the entire thing, if they are interested.  I _also_ think that those same informative blurbs should clearly point out that (assuming the game is complete) the entire Encyclopedia HEROica is _not_ required to play the game.  I honestly think the system itself should be soft-sold.  That is, don't put a lot of effort into pulling people straight into the overload that the System has become.  Let them play the game; let them enjoy the game.  Let them, in their own time, decide "I wonder what I can learn from the whole kit and kaboodle?" on their own, without any push toward it.  That's what I want to say: point it out, but don't push towards it.
 
If a game proves popular enough, write supplements _for that game_.  NOT for the HERO System, not compatible with Game X, but specifically for Game X itself.  If you know the HERO system, then you already _know_ it's compatible with it.  If you don't know the HERO System, but you _do_ know Game X, then you don't _care_ if it's compatible with HERO. If you already have the HERO System, you might not even need or want it, but you will know it's compatible because it says "Powered by HERO."  Setting _expansions_ as opposed to setting books: I accept that I am the odd man out and that most people today want the first book to include some strong samples of setting.  I cut my teeth on games like D and D and Traveller and others of the era that had no setting out of the box.  (Champions, for example  )   I know: considering what they have grown into, people today have a hard time imagining it, but first edition D and D and first edition Traveller had _zero_ setting.  I could be remembering wrong, but I don't recall that first edition The Fantasy Trip has any setting info, either.  At any rate, as my formative gaming years occurred when setting just wasn't part of a game, I guess I never really developed that need to have a prepackaged setting right away.  No biggie; I can easily accept that this _is_ an important requirement for today's gamers.  As noted above, "Tastes change." 
 
To get back on track, though:
 
If a game sells reasonably well, then do a setting expansion for that game-- do NOT do a "toolbox" of how to build a setting that will work for this game; do NOT do "here are ten possible settings for this game."  I could honestly even accept that one book does _two_ possible settings, so long as they are closely related:  here is the "official" setting of this game; here is a darker, broodier, more baroque version of the setting, featuring grey and blue backgrounds and all the street lights have been replaced with 20 watt bulbs and the occasional gas lamp."   Or maybe "this is the official setting; this is the setting from the villains' point of view."    I am not _big_ on doing two settings, but so long as they are very closely related, it _shouldn't_ be a problem, particularly if one of them is clearly labeled "this is the official one.  If you go to a CON, this is what we will be playing.  If there is additional support coming, this is the version that will be supported first when it comes to allocating budget."
 
Removing the toolkitting (thanks, Tasha, if you're still following along.  I have read a number of the 5e setting books, and even knowing all that optional-optional-optional-optional stuff was in there, at this point I am so stinkin' used to seeing it that it didn't even register anymore.  Instead of each book having a setting currently, it's got an expansive set of Colorforms that you plop down onto the pre-painted background to make your own setting.  (Am I telling my age?  Anyone else remember Colorforms?  Just me?)
 
One thing that I think is very important to the success of a setting book, based on those unhappy with the offerings now (Tasha, myself, and people I have tried to convert to HERO who did a little online looking and went "Oh, Hell no!" ) is a solid adventure.  No; I don't think the adventure by itself is something that will sell the book, but I think it will be harder to sell without out.  Several reasons, the first of which is "perceived value."  You get a setting book for the price of a setting book, but you also get this pretty sweet 15, 25-page adventure!  It's an entire story arc; looks like three or four sessions to get through it!  Amazing!"
 
Let's face it:
 
How many of us bought gaming magazines back in the day, even if the entire issue was below average, because it had a pretty cool adventure in it?  How many of us bought Different Worlds because it had some of the highest production quality pull-out adventure modules for all sorts of different games we were into at the time?  How many of us subscribed to some seriously low-quality xerox-printed fanzines because there was one semi-regular contributor who had a knack for crafting an adventure once or twice a year?  While big game companies have "learned" that "adventures don't sell," the fact is that they _do_ sell; they just didn't do so good from the big publishing outfits.  Why?  Well, going from my original Traveller and D and D group, the  GMs didn't buy the brand name adventures very often because the guy running the store knew who was who, and had a business to run:  "Hey, Duke.  Don't you play in 'Tonio's Traveller group?"
"You know I do, Chestnut."
"Well he just picked up Adventure Supplement 4 a couple of days ago...."
"Cool!  So we'll probably have a game next weekend!  At the very least, it means we're about to conclude the mission we're on, right?"
"Yeah; or....  _You_ could pick up Adventure Supplement 4 and check it out before the game.... You know: find out what's a good thing to do; what's a bad thing to do.... where the goodies are...."  (because Chestnut was pretty convinced that all games were D and D).
"Yeah....   I don't think so, Chestnut.  That's...  that's not cool.  I might pick it up after we play it, though, if it was pretty good."
"Hey, Davien!  Davien, don't you play with Duke and 'Tonio?"
"Yeah."
"Well 'Tonio just bought Adventure Supplement 4 for Traveller, just a couple days ago...."
 
While it's entirely anecdotal, that's the number one reason I always heard from GMs who didn't use brand-name modules.  The Judge's Guild stuff, the small-press stuff....  nobody that didn't actually play knew much about it, and the magazines were super-safe, because there was this expectation that a "free" adventure wasn't good, and you were probably just buying the magazine for something else in it.  Truth is even if they mag adventure wasn't good, it could be tweaked easier than an adventure could be written...
 
Anyway, the point was, adventures may not by themselves sell, but they do _help_ sell.
 
Why an adventure in a world book? Because more than anything else, it will immediately help the players and GMs understand how the world works and how to interact with it.  Moreover, it should be a meaty adventure: an entire story arc (not necessarily a full-on campaign, but something that will take three or four sessions to play would be perfect, I think-- like the campaign book from 3e, only including microfilm madness.  This gives both examples of how to interact with the world and gives some solid play experience before the GM is left floundering on his own to make the next adventure.  If a short campaign will fit in there, then shoot for that!   Most importantly, that adventure should have the possibility for _complete_ resolution and the possibility to lead into the next planned product: a full-on campaign book.  No; it doesn't _have_ to be a single book, but can be a series of adventures, published semi-regularly, that all follow a story arc.  Perhaps they can be meaty enough to allow for a story arc within each adventure, tying into an overall campaign.  Moreover, each adventure book or campaign book should include a _short_ list of additional adventure ideas.  If they don't do anything else, they add background and more understanding of the world.  When you read an adventure seed like "Princess Moonwalker of the Valley People has been kidnapped while en route to the seaport village of Barzhaven.  The NPCs have gotten the news from the local town crier.  The King of the Valley People has offered two thousand Zennies and a land grant of eight hectares to anyone who can bring her back safely!"  we actually learn a lot about the world: 
 
There is a Valley Kingdom and a seaport.  There are brigands about.  Two thousand Zennies is probably a _lot_ of money.  We are measuring land by an archaic european standard.  The Valley People name themselves like Elves.  Even if you don't use the seeds, they are informative, and an important bit of world building, particularly for a neophyte who doesn't want or perhaps is not ready to do it himself.
 
We can talk about the understanding that adventures don't sell, but we know that they do-- perhaps not high-margin, high-profile sales, but if the world book sells enough units to demonstrate that people want to play the game, and want more of the background, setting, etc, then they will likely want adventures, if only for inspiration.
 
Adventures saved Dungeons and Dragons.
 
We can demonstrate all the old wisdom that they don't sell, but the entire hobby was on the way out prior to Pathfinder, and the entire success of Pathfinder was the Paths.  As Pathfinder caught fire, a lot of people moved from there to "the original," and even Wizards understood the value to providing solid content that could keep players occupied for a long time.
 
And more in this vein, but I think we all have the idea:  Complete game with some setting and a some sort of adventure and even a few "adventure ideas."
 
 
 
HA!  I guess I jumped the gun on that, didn't I?   
 
To go a bit further, at this point, I wouldn't even begin to worry about offending the old hands.  Putting too much emphasis on what they want is kind of what brought HERO to where it is now.     Besides, most of us are collectors, at least to the best of our ability.  You could stamp out commemorative toilet paper with Hexman printed   all over it, and we'd buy it.  We're kinda sad like that.      Honestly, I'd have forty or more of those HERO dice if they'd picked a size that let me hold more than three or at a time.
 
 
 
 
 
I agree: experienced gamers tend to not need a sample adventure.  However, I think we should have long ago paid attention to the fact that not one single experienced gamer has ever been injured by the inclusion of one.     At least, not in any way but his ego, and frankly, we could all use a swift kick to the ego every now and again: it keeps us humble.   
 
 
 
 

The perception was that "roll low" is counter intuitive, deterring new players.

The reason you should care about this is that it's hard to find players that will shift from D&D to other game systems. They aren't 'stupid', we should just be looking for ways to make the transition from D&D to Hero as easy as possible.

I would love to do this, and Have done this with a branch of the game's rules AKA Fuzion. IF you are going to flip it and want to keep the same spread, it should be OCV + 3d6 vs DCV +10. You would have to change stuff like being stunned (aka 1/2 DCV), and other things that half DCV. Which wouldn't be bad, doing division during combat can be rough for newbies.

Most arguments against it tend to boil down to "I am used to how it is, don't really want to change. So I don't see the point"

FH Complete and Champions complete are efforts to make those one game books. No edition of Hero System Champions has ever been a complete game. Fantasy Hero 1e was not a full game. They were/are a toolbox to create fantasy games. Even games that are more complete like DI/Espionage don't really come with campaigns. You are given options and tools to create your own genre game, but nothing else. The ONLY game that that has included a full campaign is the much maligned Champions New Millennia. You had a strong city background. Strong well developed NPC/Villains. There are great orgs, that are integrated INTO the overall campaign world.

THIS is where IMHO the fandom has shot the game in the foot. Longstanding Hero System fans demand that every game have the full toolkit available. Which means that every book gives you a bigger toolbox. Even the Fantasy World supplements are toolboxes.

PS everyone is really nice. In the past I have gotten into epic arguments with folk. It never got to the point of name calling etc. The few people who couldn't handle that were ejected by Dan.

I bought Champions New Millennium (1e) and both the supplements to it. Back in the day you could also DL the Fuzion rules for free from R.Tal's website. I should also have a Fan created PDF of the whole Champions powerset Fuzion style. I also own Hero Creator which included the Fuzion template.

They had flaws, they had figured characteristics that didn't work well with the base system. IMHO it would have been better if it used the 6e style of buying secondary characteristics. It was easy to run, and my mostly newbie (to Hero or Fuzion) players got it really quickly.

I have the CNM that stripped all Fuzion out of the book. I ran CNM using Hero 5-6. It was nice to have a game city that was on the west coast. Written by people who live here in the bay area. CNM is a big loveletter to the SF Bay Area. Unfortunately, it's very outdated now.
Nah, you need the original CNM, Alliances, and Bay city. to get a full set of the rules. CNM also included truncated Mekton rules for creating vehicles. It also included Life Path for Champions which was VERY useful.

As sourcebooks they were IMHO the most accessible set of game world books that has ever been created for any Champions Edition. Characters(Villains) that I thought were boring in Champions 1-4 were interesting in CNM.

I currently play 6e as my preference.

I have been playing since 2e Champions released. Playing every edition since then. Spent a TON of time with Fantasy Hero 1e, played and ran a ton of Danger International, Champions 3e. We moved on to 4e and played that for years (Heck, I have a first printing 4e Champions signed by George McDonald). I played Fuzion for a bit, Then 5e and 5er. Settling into 6e when it shipped. I remember downloading the PDFs while I was at Blizzcon that year. It took so long to get printed copies, I printed out both books on my Color laser Printer and had them bound at Office Depot.

I have been part of the online community since the Hero System group on AOL appeared.

I disagree with your arguments against roll high. I am honestly sick of arguing the same stuff that I have been arguing for years. Again, there is ZERO point to doing this. There isn't going to be another edition of the game. So any changes are house rules. Do what you like with your game.

I bought Champions New Millennium (1e) and both the supplements to it. Back in the day you could also DL the Fuzion rules for free from R.Tal's website. I should also have a Fan created PDF of the whole Champions powerset Fuzion style. I also own Hero Creator which included the Fuzion template.

They had flaws, they had figured characteristics that didn't work well with the base system. IMHO it would have been better if it used the 6e style of buying secondary characteristics. It was easy to run, and my mostly newbie (to Hero or Fuzion) players got it really quickly.

I have the CNM that stripped all Fuzion out of the book. I ran CNM using Hero 5-6. It was nice to have a game city that was on the west coast. Written by people who live here in the bay area. CNM is a big loveletter to the SF Bay Area. Unfortunately, it's very outdated now.
Nah, you need the original CNM, Alliances, and Bay city. to get a full set of the rules. CNM also included truncated Mekton rules for creating vehicles. It also included Life Path for Champions which was VERY useful.

As sourcebooks they were IMHO the most accessible set of game world books that has ever been created for any Champions Edition. Characters(Villains) that I thought were boring in Champions 1-4 were interesting in CNM.

I'm applying elsewhere, but it's like any audition or job hunt these days, y'know? 

GM poked his head out to advance stuff...so now I've poked HIM.

FH Complete and Champions complete are efforts to make those one game books. No edition of Hero System Champions has ever been a complete game. Fantasy Hero 1e was not a full game. They were/are a toolbox to create fantasy games. Even games that are more complete like DI/Espionage don't really come with campaigns. You are given options and tools to create your own genre game, but nothing else. The ONLY game that that has included a full campaign is the much maligned Champions New Millennia. You had a strong city background. Strong well developed NPC/Villains. There are great orgs, that are integrated INTO the overall campaign world.

THIS is where IMHO the fandom has shot the game in the foot. Longstanding Hero System fans demand that every game have the full toolkit available. Which means that every book gives you a bigger toolbox. Even the Fantasy World supplements are toolboxes.

PS everyone is really nice. In the past I have gotten into epic arguments with folk. It never got to the point of name calling etc. The few people who couldn't handle that were ejected by Dan.

FH Complete and Champions complete are efforts to make those one game books. No edition of Hero System Champions has ever been a complete game. Fantasy Hero 1e was not a full game. They were/are a toolbox to create fantasy games. Even games that are more complete like DI/Espionage don't really come with campaigns. You are given options and tools to create your own genre game, but nothing else. The ONLY game that that has included a full campaign is the much maligned Champions New Millennia. You had a strong city background. Strong well developed NPC/Villains. There are great orgs, that are integrated INTO the overall campaign world.

THIS is where IMHO the fandom has shot the game in the foot. Longstanding Hero System fans demand that every game have the full toolkit available. Which means that every book gives you a bigger toolbox. Even the Fantasy World supplements are toolboxes.

PS everyone is really nice. In the past I have gotten into epic arguments with folk. It never got to the point of name calling etc. The few people who couldn't handle that were ejected by Dan.

I bought Champions New Millennium (1e) and both the supplements to it. Back in the day you could also DL the Fuzion rules for free from R.Tal's website. I should also have a Fan created PDF of the whole Champions powerset Fuzion style. I also own Hero Creator which included the Fuzion template.

They had flaws, they had figured characteristics that didn't work well with the base system. IMHO it would have been better if it used the 6e style of buying secondary characteristics. It was easy to run, and my mostly newbie (to Hero or Fuzion) players got it really quickly.

I have the CNM that stripped all Fuzion out of the book. I ran CNM using Hero 5-6. It was nice to have a game city that was on the west coast. Written by people who live here in the bay area. CNM is a big loveletter to the SF Bay Area. Unfortunately, it's very outdated now.
Nah, you need the original CNM, Alliances, and Bay city. to get a full set of the rules. CNM also included truncated Mekton rules for creating vehicles. It also included Life Path for Champions which was VERY useful.

As sourcebooks they were IMHO the most accessible set of game world books that has ever been created for any Champions Edition. Characters(Villains) that I thought were boring in Champions 1-4 were interesting in CNM.

IMHO this is the best part of any Hero System game. The default power levels are not for total neophyte characters. They are generally competent. Which is something I bring to as many games as possible.

I guess you are talking 4e-5er point limits? We always played with 350 pt characters (yes back in 4e days), Throwing DC12 for most things. In 6e I like 450-500 pt characters with DC 12 attacks.

For new players I would probably start with ~400 pt characters with CV based in Characteristics (No skill levels), all powers without Limitations, no advantages. Keep the characters VERY simple. IMHO it seems like Champions Begins did a GREAT Job of creating characters for Newbie players. Also, with characters getting complexity added after certain thresholds. I wish we had this years ago.

I bought Champions New Millennium (1e) and both the supplements to it. Back in the day you could also DL the Fuzion rules for free from R.Tal's website. I should also have a Fan created PDF of the whole Champions powerset Fuzion style. I also own Hero Creator which included the Fuzion template.

They had flaws, they had figured characteristics that didn't work well with the base system. IMHO it would have been better if it used the 6e style of buying secondary characteristics. It was easy to run, and my mostly newbie (to Hero or Fuzion) players got it really quickly.

I have the CNM that stripped all Fuzion out of the book. I ran CNM using Hero 5-6. It was nice to have a game city that was on the west coast. Written by people who live here in the bay area. CNM is a big loveletter to the SF Bay Area. Unfortunately, it's very outdated now.
Nah, you need the original CNM, Alliances, and Bay city. to get a full set of the rules. CNM also included truncated Mekton rules for creating vehicles. It also included Life Path for Champions which was VERY useful.

As sourcebooks they were IMHO the most accessible set of game world books that has ever been created for any Champions Edition. Characters(Villains) that I thought were boring in Champions 1-4 were interesting in CNM.

I bought Champions New Millennium (1e) and both the supplements to it. Back in the day you could also DL the Fuzion rules for free from R.Tal's website. I should also have a Fan created PDF of the whole Champions powerset Fuzion style. I also own Hero Creator which included the Fuzion template.

They had flaws, they had figured characteristics that didn't work well with the base system. IMHO it would have been better if it used the 6e style of buying secondary characteristics. It was easy to run, and my mostly newbie (to Hero or Fuzion) players got it really quickly.

I have the CNM that stripped all Fuzion out of the book. I ran CNM using Hero 5-6. It was nice to have a game city that was on the west coast. Written by people who live here in the bay area. CNM is a big loveletter to the SF Bay Area. Unfortunately, it's very outdated now.
Nah, you need the original CNM, Alliances, and Bay city. to get a full set of the rules. CNM also included truncated Mekton rules for creating vehicles. It also included Life Path for Champions which was VERY useful.

As sourcebooks they were IMHO the most accessible set of game world books that has ever been created for any Champions Edition. Characters(Villains) that I thought were boring in Champions 1-4 were interesting in CNM.

Fuzion (with a z), was created for CNM. It is called that because they fused Hero system and Interlock together to create a new system. They just had the "Champions superpowers module added to the system" IMHO it's biggest issue was that they didn't anticipate that people would want the full Hero Superpowers toolkit. Which left a bad taste for 4e Hero players, who seemed to be willing to try it. But ended up angry that they couldn't build everything they could in 4e.

Which left many in the fandom automatically hating any mechanics that took anything from Fuzion.

I bought Champions New Millennium (1e) and both the supplements to it. Back in the day you could also DL the Fuzion rules for free from R.Tal's website. I should also have a Fan created PDF of the whole Champions powerset Fuzion style. I also own Hero Creator which included the Fuzion template.

They had flaws, they had figured characteristics that didn't work well with the base system. IMHO it would have been better if it used the 6e style of buying secondary characteristics. It was easy to run, and my mostly newbie (to Hero or Fuzion) players got it really quickly.

I have the CNM that stripped all Fuzion out of the book. I ran CNM using Hero 5-6. It was nice to have a game city that was on the west coast. Written by people who live here in the bay area. CNM is a big loveletter to the SF Bay Area. Unfortunately, it's very outdated now.
Nah, you need the original CNM, Alliances, and Bay city. to get a full set of the rules. CNM also included truncated Mekton rules for creating vehicles. It also included Life Path for Champions which was VERY useful.

As sourcebooks they were IMHO the most accessible set of game world books that has ever been created for any Champions Edition. Characters(Villains) that I thought were boring in Champions 1-4 were interesting in CNM.

I currently play 6e as my preference.

I have been playing since 2e Champions released. Playing every edition since then. Spent a TON of time with Fantasy Hero 1e, played and ran a ton of Danger International, Champions 3e. We moved on to 4e and played that for years (Heck, I have a first printing 4e Champions signed by George McDonald). I played Fuzion for a bit, Then 5e and 5er. Settling into 6e when it shipped. I remember downloading the PDFs while I was at Blizzcon that year. It took so long to get printed copies, I printed out both books on my Color laser Printer and had them bound at Office Depot.

I have been part of the online community since the Hero System group on AOL appeared.

I disagree with your arguments against roll high. I am honestly sick of arguing the same stuff that I have been arguing for years. Again, there is ZERO point to doing this. There isn't going to be another edition of the game. So any changes are house rules. Do what you like with your game.

The only reason I'm considering this is to make things easier for my kids (11 Years Old) who haven't played any pen and paper games.  My daughter especially has trouble with doing math in her head.
Also, I'm not the quickest at doing it myself, but I can rely on pre-generated/pre-calculated tables and programs to shore that up.
But I want to introduce them to the Hero System and hopefully have some fun Father Son/Daughter time with them.
 
That's why I snagged the Champions Begins once I found out what it was. Perfect timing.
 
So my situation is somewhat an edge case I think.

Why WOULD you need to change the Hit Location chart. It's basically stand alone, so roll high or roll low looks the same.

I GUESS if you wanted to keep the roll high is best, then flip the chart completely

ie
3-4 Feet 5-6 Legs 7 Thighs 8 Vitals 9 Stomach 10-11 Chest 12 Shoulders 13-14 Arms 15 Hands 16-18 Head
 

I talk to Rob Miller occasionally, and while he's pleased that people are using them and changing them he's a little... chagrined...that people don't credit.
 
So thanks to you, him, Dan and others.

There are sections in some of those sheets that are obvious that they were lifted or were used as the basis for other sheets. ie Comments being identical between sections in a number of sheets

Could be as easy as Variable Special Effect, Focus of Opportunity.