Hyper-Man

There was a recent thread about trying to re-build Martial Art Maneuvers as Powers and I believe that one question provided an 'aha moment' to the original poster.  The question was, "how would they re-build the Basic Combat Maneuvers like Block?" There really isn't a way to do that.  It's a core assumption of the system. 

Another recent conversation on the Facebook Hero Fan Page confirmed that many GM's encounter the following situation.  After a new player sees the 'toolkit' blurb on the back of the rulebook they react with "Challenge Accepted!" and attempt to build some of the most hideously complex characters (like Rogue from the X-Men). 

I am pretty sure I am not alone in thinking that STUN is one of those mechanics like the Basic Combat Maneuvers in HERO that can't really be changed without the result no longer being HERO.  It's not using the Toolkit, rather, it's like trying to make a better wrench.

HM

I keep re-reading all the posts and I can't help but think that removing/combining STUN with BODY to determine the effect of 'wounds' is removing a key feature of HERO (the ability to bring down an opponent via non-permanent damage).  That just seems like creating Hit Points by another name (and even systems with Hit Points usually have some type of non-lethal 'stunning' rule bolted on to them).

HERO is a game with a foundation of mechanics that get overlaid with special effect descriptions.  It sounds like you are attempting to combine the two with no real purpose.  I also have yet to see an answer to a question that has been asked multiple times so far....

Have you looked at the Automaton Rules (Specifically, Takes No Stun)? Your efforts seem to be trying to recreate its effects.

Also, have you given any thought as to how characters would increase their resistance to taking damage (via spending XP) in your thought experiment?

HM

I think we are getting off topic a little bit. The original request was for help balancing rookie 350/5e 400/6e characters modeled on famous characters. Not actually creating experienced current versions of those same characters. Those are 2 completely different exercises.

HM

Cobalt Wonder

HM

Safeguard

HM

The STUN mechanic is fairly baked into HERO.  This goes back to its Champions/supers roots but it serves other genres as well.

I can't think of a better way to handle the fight between Bond and Drax the Destroyer from the recent film Spectre:

Bond does not appear to take much if any lasting (BODY) from the otherwise brutal fight. The latter part of the fight gives a good example of Bond getting Stunned momentarily.

I'll echo Tasha and ask what 'problem' are you trying to solve that the current setup can't handle?  Also, have you looked at the Automaton rules?

HM

As I already pointed out up thread, the Characteristic Maximum rule was first used all the way back in the days of Espionage! which was a non-supers game.  The rules also clearly stated how this could be bypassed by paying more points.  There is nothing ever mentioned about those characters that go above 20 in a Characteristic in such a way now being considered super or anything other than humans, exceptional humans who are paying the premium to be that exceptional, but in no way beyond what a "stock human" could be capable of achieving with training, practice, etc.  There are no "superhumans" in Espionage!, Danger International, etc. Ninja-Bear's 4e 33 DEX example is still possible and cannot be explained away with a 'super' label as it does not exist in the campaign setting.

HM

Like bigdamnhero said, it really depends on what the player wants.  Based on the 6e Limitation descriptions below, Wolverine-like retractable claws seem like a better fit for Restrainable. I don't know enough about Psylocke's energy blades to say one way or the other.

From 6e1 page 387:

PHYSICAL MANIFESTATION
Value: -¼
This -¼ Limitation signifies a power that, while not built as a Focus or the like, has some physical embodiment that other characters can attack. Examples include a Flight bought to simulate riding a column of force, Telekinesis defined as a giant stone hand that grabs things, or skating along an ice-slide.

When a character applies this Limitation to the power, he must define the exact nature of the physical manifestation. This requires the GM’s approval and may involve applying other Limitations to the power. Treat the manifestation like a Breakable Focus for purposes of determining its PD/ED and BODY (since most Physical Manifestations are only going to involve one power, that typically means they’ll only have 1 BODY, but the GM can change that if desired). It has a DCV equal to the character’s base DCV (i.e., as calculated from DEX, with no other modifiers), unless the GM rules otherwise based on the size or nature of the manifestation.

At the GM’s option, characters can take Physical Manifestation for Instant Powers that have a “lingering” or long-term effect of some sort. Examples include Mind Control (which can continue to affect the target long after the Attack Roll was made) and Telepathy (which characters can use to conduct long conversations). It might even apply to a Power like HKA if it’s defined as creating claws or a weapon — the claws “remain in existence” between Phases even if the character can’t use them. (See also Time Limit, 6E1 346.) As long as the temporary loss of the power might restrict or hinder the character in some way (for example, if re-activating it takes a lot of time and effort), Physical Manifestation is probably a valid Limitation. If the character can instantly re-activate the power and not having it for a few seconds doesn’t hinder him at all, the GM shouldn’t allow the Limitation (or should give it a maximum value of -0).

From 6e1 page 393:

RESTRAINABLE
Value: -½; -¼ for powers Restrainable by means other than Grabs and Entangles
A power with this -½ Limitation is generated by or based upon an area of the body that can be restrained. Examples include Flight defined as having wings or some HKAs defined as having claws. If that area or part of the body is Grabbed, Entangled, or otherwise restrained, the character cannot use the power. When he breaks free of the restraint, or it’s removed, the power functions normally again.

HM

Because this is a Champions forum thread I wanted to make it clear that the rule for Heroic Maximum Characteristics (that is not really a maximum) was originally a non-Champions rule that did not even originate in 4e.  I did not originally bring it up.

HM

So does 5th (5ER p39) and 6th (6e1 p50). It basically the exact same rule as in 4ed. (Except with more words.) And of course it wasn't included in the pre-4ed Champions books, because it's a rule that's not typically used in superhero games. I'm not sure what your point is?

In Espionage!, Danger International and the original Fantasy Hero it was possible to play a normal human with a STR higher than 20 by spending the extra points.  It makes no sense whatsoever to then argue that Bruce Wayne in a 4e Champions game is not allowed to have over a 20 STR because he is a normal human.

I point this out because I have seen too many 4e Champions GM's argue that 20 was the hard limit.  I believe this was a major reason that the more detailed table was included in the 5e Champions book.

HM

Well, I guess I don't know what is meant by "hard limit/dividing line" then, because the "Characteristic Maxima" rule seems to me to be a rather hard limit/dividing line between superheroic and non-superheroic. All that later editions did was spell out what the intermediate values meant in descriptive, almost FASERIP-like terms. I don't know any experienced RPGers who needed that spelled out for them. (And by experienced I mean someone who has played virtually anything else before trying the Hero System.)

Before 5e Champions every HERO book that had a Characteristic Maxima rule had an exception to it defining how to go past it.  Prior to Champions 4e it was only mentioned in the non-Champions books.  A "Maximum" that can be bypassed is not really a maximum.

HM

The use of the word "Maximum" was unfortunate because it has always only been the point at which increasing beyond costed double and nothing more.  This goes back all the way to Espionage!, Danger International and the original Fantasy Hero.  There was no mention of it in Champions 3e, 2e or 1e.

Champions 4e and the identical core rules in Hero System 4e used almost exactly the same wording as those previous books.

From Hero System 4e page 15:

MAXIMUM CHARACTERISTICS
The Maximum Value listed for the Characteristics means that characters in heroic campaigns don’t normally have a Characteristic over that number. Characters in superheroic campaigns can ignore this restriction altogether. It’s not impossible for characters in heroic campaigns to exceed the maximum listed score in a Characteristic, but it is expensive. The cost of Characteristics over the Maximum Value is twice the normal cost listed.
Example: Paul wants his character, a rocket scientist, to have an INT of 23 (to be exceptionally bright and to help out with some of his Intelligence-based Skills). The score of 23 exceeds the listed maximum of 20 by 3. Paul uses 10 of his Character Points to buy his INT up to 20. After that, the cost per point doubles, so that the three additional Intelligence points cost six more Character Points. Paul has spent a total of 16 Character Points and his character now has an Intelligence of 23.

The first mention of an actual hard-limit/dividing-line was in the Champions 5e source book and was described as Standards of the Champions Universe.  The same table finally appeared in the core rules for the first time in Hero System 6e1.

From Champions 5e page 58:

From 6e1 page 48:

HM

re:  Cops, Crews & Cabals

It exists according to this:

https://rpggeek.com/rpgitem/56679/cops-crews-and-cabals-hd-character-pack

And is available here:

https://www.rpgnow.com/product/61346/Cops-Crews-and-Cabals-Character-Pack-for-Hero-Designer

HM

Well, the published Champions Universe characters still have the same range of DEX and SPD as earlier editions but the costs have increased due to the removal of 'figured' characteristics and the introduction of new skills and other abilities to the system. There are several characters that span the editions from 4e to 6e where this can be seen. Durak from Eurostar is a great example. The 4e version would likely stomp his 5e and 6e 'updates'. 

There are no 'official' HERO/Champions versions of famous comic book characters like Batman or Iron Man but there are several fan made interpretations.  I've posted several 'rookie' versions of members of the Justice League.  Rookies can certainly spend future XP to increase characteristics and other abilities with time and training.  My original design goal was to build them within the recommended starting points for whichever edition of Champions and HERO System they were built for (350 for 5e and 400 for 6e). This was to counter a common complaint that recognizable versions of those characters could not be built on starting points.  One of the compromises I made was to lower the DEX and SPD values below the standard Champions Universe benchmarks so that enough points would be available to express each characters core abilities within budget.  My interpretations are not official by any stretch of the imagination.  The SPD change does make using the builds 'as is' within the Champions Universe a little problematic but there are many threads on SPD itself arguing for its removal.  Lowering the campaign averages or just setting a campaign standard of 4 for everyone but speedsters goes a long way towards solving the perceived problems.

HM

HM

See the following old post for some 5e an examples of Cap's shield and Wolverine's claws:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/68154-captain-america-build-350-pts/?p=1743039

HM

The Focus Limitation would not apply.  They can't be removed in a Turn.  They typically can be restrained though so some form of Restrainable is usually appropriate.

HM

What does being prone do to you?  It requires a half phase to stand up, and you're at 1/2 DCV while you're prone.

 

So just buy him position shift (so he can stand up for free), and +X DCV, only to keep full DCV while prone.  There, you're done.

 

So my character looks like this:

 

blah blah blah character sheet

normal DCV 6

+6 DCV, only to keep full DCV while prone (-2)

X" of movement, position shift 

I'd value only to keep full DCV while prone at (-1 1/2) to keep it in line with the published PSL cost.

From 6e1 page 85:

DEFENSIVE PENALTY SKILL LEVELS

The second, less common, category of PSLs reduces or counteracts negative DCV modifiers imposed by particular conditions. Examples

include:

Groundfighting Skill Levels, which offset the DCV penalty for being prone

 

DEFENSIVE PENALTY SKILL LEVEL TABLE

Cost Application

2 +1 to offset a specific negative DCV modifier imposed by any single specific condition

HM

Here's a simplification of the earlier examples provided by Lucius.

Technically, the Position Shift Adder is only an option for Flight and Teleportation but I'm wondering why a minimum 1m of either form of movement is actually required to purchase the Adder. I couldn't think of a really good reason besides Drains so here it is:

5 I Get Knocked Down But I get up again You're never going to keep me down: Custom Power - Naked Position Shift Adder (5 Active Points)

[Notes: Characters with unusual Movement Powers (such as Flight or Teleportation) can use those powers to get to their feet as a Zero Phase Action after being knocked down, and without moving any distance, if they buy this +5 Character Point Adder. See also 6E1 302 regarding Teleportation.] - END=1

This only affects the character when they take their Phase actions.  The reduction to their DCV still occurs.  A number of PSL's vs being Prone = to half their normal DCV would also be needed.

HM

Well, my rookie Batman can do anywhere from 6d6 to 12d6 damage using carried 'weapons' hidden in his Utility Belt combined with Martial Arts.  13d6 if counting the 2 Overall Skill Levels used towards damage.

VAL    CHA    Cost    Roll    Notes
20    STR    10    13-    HTH Damage 4d6  END [2]

0    1) Batarangs: Blast 6d6 (30 Active Points); OAF (-1), Range Based On Strength (-1/4), Beam (-1/4), 2 clips of 6 Recoverable Charges (-0) Real Cost: 10 [Notes: Up to 8d6 with Batarang Fu Basic Shot.] - END=[6 rc]
0    2) Tonfa (Billy Club/Nightstick): (Total: 30 Active Cost, 11 Real Cost) Hand-To-Hand Attack +3d6 (Reduced Negation (2)), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (28 Active Points); OAF (-1), Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4) (Real Cost: 10) plus +1 with any single attack (Tonfa) (2 Active Points); OAF (-1) (Real Cost: 1) Real Cost: 11 - [Notes: Up to 9d6 with Bat Fu Martial Strike.] - END=0
0    3) Taser Knuckles: Hand-To-Hand Attack (vs. Energy Defense) +6d6 (30 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4), 4 clips of 8 Charges (-0) Real Cost: 13 [Notes: Up to 12d6 with Bat Fu Martial Strike.] - END=[8]

Cost    Martial Arts
    Bat Fu
2    1)  Weapon Element (Empty Hand, Fist-Loads, Karate Weapons):  Default Element, Fist-Loads, Karate Weapons
[Notes: Empty Hand is Default.  The traditional weapons of Karate are the bo (staff), eiku (staff), kama, nunchaku, rochin, sai, tekko, timbe and tonfa.]
4    5)  Martial Strike:  1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, 6d6 Strike
5    7)  Sacrifice Strike (Kick):  1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, -2 DCV, 8d6 Strike
    
    Batarang Fu
0    1)  Weapon Element (Boomerangs and Throwing Clubs):  Default Element [Notes: Boomerangs and Throwing Clubs are Default.]
4    2)  Basic Shot:  1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, Range +2, Strike, +2 DC
4    4)  Trip:  1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, -1 DCV, Range +2, v/5, Target Falls

24    +2 Overall Skill Levels

His best general tactic vs. someone like The Thing would be to delay (Block, Dodge, Dive For Cover, Martial Throw or Trip) until one of  'big guns' shows up (ex: Clark, Diana).  If he had to engage a true brick, his most effective attack would be be his Taser Knuckles but they have limited charges and only a low to average chance of Stunning vs decent defenses. It would likely only take one average hit from a brick like Ben to Stun Bruce.

As long as he had some cover to begin with, Batman could deal with Cyclops by using his Batarangs to get close.

The big issue with including a Batman-type in a team game is that a choice has to be made between having the useful non-combat skills and such vs. having a decent combat effectiveness vs. true supers.  My version is modeled on a combination of Batman:TAS and the Batman:Year One comic book.  The version that joins the Justice League would need 50-100 additional XP to really be viable in that setting (better Martial Arts including a couple of Martial DC's and better Utility Belt gadgets by upping the slot active points to 60).

I think it's a worthwhile experiment in balancing to figure out but I sometimes think 'schtick' enforcement is more important than 'starting points' or active points of various attacks.  In other words, if Batman has to actually fight in a team game it usually means he's on a solo mission or the rest of his teammates are already engaged in fights of their own.  He's far less likely to engage in the direct team on team skirmishes like Captain America does with the Avengers because he hasn't figured out how to add a shield like Cap's to his Utility Belt.

HM
 

This was discussed in an earlier thread called 

"Unremarkable" pseudo-invisibility"

 

Take a look to see if this meets your needs...  I don't know how to link the forum thread...

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/93412-unremarkable-pseudo-invisibility/?hl=%2Bunremarkable+%2Bpseudo-invisibility

HM

I haven't actively played in a game in quite some time but that range attacks seems perfect for the two most recent street-level supers I've built. 

My rookie version of Spider-Man for 6e has a base 11PD/9ED and 3 Levels of Combat Luck. 

My rookie version of Batman for 6e has a base 8PD/8ED, 5PD/5ED Armor (OIF RAR 14-) and 1 Level of Combat Luck.

8-10DC attacks from groups of thugs could potentially be handled solo by either.  Higher level attacks in a 'team' environment could be handled occasionally but would demand respect and the occasional Dodge.

HM

A Self Only Barrier would also work.

HM

Density Increase.

HM

Here is a less well known animated example. The way Graviton lost is kind of cheesy actually. It all boils down to overconfidence.  He easily had the power to beat the entire team.

HM