smoelf

Yes, I'm right there with you. I'm one of those people who fell in love with the idea of HERO years ago, but have had a hard time converting that into practice. This obviously has a number of reasons, but it certainly does not help that I know not a single person who already knows HERO (which means that I'll likely have to GM), that I am a very inexperienced GM, and that I have not had a regular gaming group for a long time. Sitting down with 6E on your own without previous exposure to the system is quite the task. I'm beginning to think that one reason for that is that 6E was written for people who already knew HERO System, and just needed a presentation of the new ruleset. There are certain assumptions about how the system plays in practice that differs from a few of the other well known system, which are not very well described and the information is scattered in many various places. This gives a learner the impression that, yes, they do actually need to read back to back in order to be sure that they catch all those small, essential paragraphs that explicate the assumptions. I can give examples, but perhaps that would be better served for another thread, to reduce the derailing. This means that my usual pattern have been to take the PDF's out a few times a year to ponder and wonder the amazing possibiities that HERO gives me, which D&D or Pathfinder does not, and then putting them aside, being stuck in that endless loop of not being able to put a gaming group together without having a proper grasp of the system to GM, but not really acquiring a proper grasp of the system because of a lack of context for learning and understanding how it plays out. Finally, I recently reached out to my old GM and asked if he was interested in scraping a few people together if I ran a one-shot/mini-adventure this summer. He was quite hooked (due to a lack of gaming), and I think I'll be able to put something together, but it has truly been a bite-sized endeavour. Time, energy, and obligations are naturally also obstacles for the process. I don't think it has to take as long as it did for me, but the problems in the system presentation and system-support certainly did not help.

That's fair. My thoughts on similarity mostly pertained to the generic/multi-genre presentation of it - rather merely as an alternative approach to simulating the high fantasy of D&D (and Ptolus). Definitely! The reputation of the Ptolus setting as such likely also plays a big part, so it is not like it would be simple for DOJ to do something similar. But it's still an interesting approach. As I said, I had never heard about the Cypher system before. The setting looks cool, so I've thought of backing it, and if I do, it would likely be at a level, where I'd get both versions in PDF, which would place me in a position to dip into the Cypher system, if it looks interesting. The set-up has made me curious about the system, while the model increases the chances of financial success.

At this point I'm probably only halfway through this thread, so I'm not sure where the discussion has moved by now, but I just wanted to share this: Earlier in the thread there was some discussion on the importance of setting in promoting a system. I think Monte Cook's kickstarter is an interesting example of that. First of all it indicates that good settings can sell well, as there is quite a good interest in it (and there are still 16 days to go). Second, it has a very interesting model, where they sell two versions of their setting. One updated to D&D 5E and another that uses their own system: Cypher. Backers can choose either or both of these versions. I don't know Cypher, but reading about it does present some HERO similarities: http://cypher-system.com/what-is-the-cypher-system/ It's a very slick approach to pushing their own system, by attaching it to a (for some) well known setting from D&D 3.5E and presenting it as an option. Is it worth it? A quick scan shows that only about 5 % of backers select the Cypher-only version. It's not a lot in itself, but it's still a few hundred people - even if we don't know how many of them are already Cypher players and how many are risking trying out a new system for a cool setting. Obviously, Cypher has some advantages in that it seems to build on similar assumptions to D&D (otherwise it would not make sense to use both systems for the same setting), so it might be difficult to pull off a similar stunt for HERO, but I find it to be an interesting case.

I think I have only ever once come close to something that was 'immersion breaking' to the point of taking me out of the game. We were playing in my GM's world, where he had designed a few different religions. One was modelled after the medieval Catholic Church while another was basically a powerful sorcerer-god and ruled his nation of worshippers as king. I played a D&D barbarian and had decided to play into a kind of zealot with a long term goal of uniting the religious leaders of the former religion to bring order to the world - and perhaps eventually invade the neigbooring heathen nations. At least, so was my thought. But the premise of it was quickly snuffed out, when my barbarian (IC) expressed his view that this sorcerer-god was not really a god, but simply a pretender. A reasonable conclusion for a religious zealot. But at that point our GM just basically said (OOC to me as a player) "No. He really is a god." We never got far enough in the campaign for me to really discuss it with our GM. I'm sure he would have accepted my reasoning (he's a reasonable guy), if we had had the time, so this is not just about being told no. Where the immersion breaks is where the concept of 'a theology' is simply removed from the world building and replaced with metaphysical realities that are identifiable with their dogmas. Working with historical theology is a big part of what I do, and seeing how dogma and theology evolve and develop over time, it has become impossible (or at least very difficult) for me to accept the idea that the dogma(s) of a religion should be identified with the metaphysical reality of 'the god(s)'. This is also why I'd rather build my own world before playing in a D&D-based world again, such as Forgotten Realms; which I had previously LOVED. I suppose another part of it is also the interaction itself, where an IC-development is met with an OOC response of "No, you can't do that." That in itself can really take you out of a game. Sometimes it's probably needed, if there is disagreement on the premises of the game, but I think it works better if those are solved either IC or after the game - unless they are of major importance.

Thank you for all of the replies so far. These are really useful considerations. I hadn't thought about that. So some characters might buy extra DEX to get an advantage in the same segments, but you could get a similar advantage by buying extra speed, without spending points on DEX. Oh, that's interesting. For some reason there is something very appealing about rolling for initiative in D&D, instead of the static, but consistent start of HERO, but I suppose it only really works if you have differing speeds.

That's a really useful description. I'm gonna save that for later.

I've never been much into superhero stuff, but from my time here on the boards, I've gleaned a thing or two about the genre - particularly the 'speedster' as a character trope. The character with superhuman speed makes a lot of sense (in as much as anything does) in the superhero genre, but I was wondering how people are dealing with variable speed in fantasy. Skimming through the board I occasionally see the advice to either ditch the speed chart entirely or keep everyone at the same speed (2 or 3), perhaps because this is what is expected from the systems that other players are coming from as it reduces book keeping and superspeed isn't as much a trope in fantasy as in superheroes. A quick glance through the bestiary also shows that most humanoids have speed 3, which gives me the impression that this is the stock standard for fantasy hero characters (although the hero gallery in FH does have speeds of both 3 and 4). So how do you use speed and the speed chart in your fantasy campaign? Do you have variable speed among the PC's and how is this difference understood in in-game terms?

That actually looks like a nice way to do it. I did notice the Damage over Time modifier, but somehow it didn't occur to me, that I could apply it to a healing power. Thank you!

I've never been quite fond of the concept of the healing spell in fantasy rpg's but at the same time it is very useful to have some sort of healing capability from a gameplay perspective. One way that I've been considering is to tie healing up with herbalism and alchemy. Healing is possible, but slow and clumsy, so it is not suitable for use in combat, but does allow for someone to get back in the fray within a few days instead of lying in the hospital for a month. The use of herbalism or alchemy would not be an instant heal, but would enhance the natural healing of the body to rebuild and restore from the damage, but I'm not sure how to build this. For many of the circumstantial modifiers, I'm assuming a build similar to the Salve of Wound-Knitting om p. 17 HERO System Grimoire (I can't remember if it is okay to copy the text here, so I'll stick to the page reference for now), but I'm mostly interested in the primary effect. I'm thinking something along the line of healing 1 BODY per hour (or per 20 min if it is potent) for a total of, perhaps, 6-10 BODY healed. Healing over time makes me think of Regeneration (perhaps with a time limit), but the potion system uses the Delayed Effect to allow for the potions to be used by others than the person who brewed. I can't but think that it would be against the rules to use Delayed Effect in this way, since Regeneration can't get the Usable By Others modifier.

Sounds good. I've been looking forward to this one.

There is also an actual play podcast from Drink Spin Run. It might be helpful. It also has a link to a video in the comment section there.

You might also include (or publish separately) a collection of all tables in the core books. Or perhaps of all books at all, or maybe several thematic collections. If I ever get a group together to try Hero, I would definitely print out a copy of all tables to each player for easy reference, but I would gladly pay a few dollars for a formatted version, so I won't have to copy-paste all those pictures into a word document to print. But this is more of a nice-to-have than need-to-have.

Over the past few years there has been a number of threads similar to this one, and they have always been fascinating to read through. This time I thought I might contribute to it. I have been a Hero newbie for a several years now. It is not because I am particularly dense that I haven't moved beyond the newbie stage yet, but it's just been a while since I had a gaming group, so I mostly just play around with the system at regular intervals. For the purposes of this thread I do not have FHC, so some of my suggestions might be void due to the change in layout from the core books, but they might be helpful considerations nonetheless. I have a couple of points. First of all I would like to reiterate what drew me to the Hero system in the first place. If a "newbie-friendly" version does not enable me to do this, then the efforts will be wasted, for me at least. 1) The ability to create a character that is not tied to the strictures of a class-based system. I want to be able to make, say, a heavy armored melee character with an animal companion, without having to multiclass in a way that does not make sense according to the concept, or looking through vast amounts of splatbooks to find that one feat or prestigeclass that might fit. 2) The ability to design and utilize a magic system that does not rely on spellslots, and which enable me to design spells that actually fit the style of character I want to play. I have spent a long time looking through books when preparing my cleric spells, and never being quite satisfied with my options. Everything else in the Hero system is simply boni, even if they are really nice boni. I realize this already makes me a candidate for the expanded rules that allow tinkering with the system, but it was what drew me to the Hero system to begin with. And I think it is important to realize that when thinking about my previous game group, I can only think of one who would care about Hero system on the basis of this. The rest of them would be perfectly happy playing DnD/Pathfinder with classes and Vancian magic. I don't think a beginners' book on the Hero system would have any appeal for them, but maybe that's not the purpose anyway. If the intent is to draw in new players, the above considerations are important to keep in mind, but if intent is to teach already interested players, then it makes sense to work on a simpler presentation. As for what that might constitute, it is also important to acknowledge that different people experience things differently. Personally I never had a problem with the nomenclature and abbreviations of Hero. However, for a long time I had no idea how naked advantages worked. I knew how to build them, but not how to use them. The reason for this was that I was under the assumption that a half-phase action was the basic power action in the game. I was used to attack actions being the standard from which all else is measured, so when attack actions were a half-phase action, I assumed that unless otherwise noted a power required a half-phase action to use. Boy, was I wrong. It took a long time before I realized that the standard activation action was a zero-phase action. It was simple and right there, but for some reason I had missed it. The same thing with linked powers being used simultaneously instead of requiring two attack actions. It took me a long time before I noticed that, which also kept me from really understanding how linked powers worked. I think one of the problems is that there is a lot of text. There is a lot of text, and I don't have the time nor patience to read the two core books cover to cover, and there is a lot of information hidden simply in text blocks throughout the book. Simpler presentation with an awareness of what assumptions new people bring to the book might be useful here. Again, I don't know if that has improved in FHC. Another thing I might mention is the "Hero way" to do things. Both on the board and in the books, there seems to be certain "standard" way of building certain powers. Like trackless stride being invisible power effects on movement. It can be really hard to figure out what those "standard" ways are, because it requires a way of thinking that is more abstracted than what most people are used to. This is of course a postulate, but of the most eyeopening things for me has been to read the threads where people build stuff and then explain their reasoning behind it. That gives me a much better understanding of what the different parts of Hero system do. It is a lot of work for a beginner to read through all the advantages and limitations in order to determine, which of those adequately model the effect you want to achieve. On the one hand it can be a bit disheartening when you think you have a power figured out, only to realize that there was a "standard" way of modelling it, that is way easier and more intuitive, but on the other hand, this might provide a good starting point for a separate beginners' resource on how to use the tools at your disposal, in ways that are not immediately obvious, when coming from a different game system. Just a thought. Finally, I would like comment on the marketing issue. Helping newbies understand Hero better is important and a good thing, but drawing them in is just as important as keeping them around, and I feel like the community has missed out on a couple of amazing opportunities that are surging these years. Actual play streaming. Anyone here watch Critical Role? It's a show where a bunch of voice actors play DnD on Twitch. It has a huge impact in drawing new people into the hobby. People watch it for the show (since they are afterall actors), and then realize how much fun DnD is. On top of that, it is also helpful to teach people how to play, as they see it in action with some explanation on the side or on Reddit afterwards. I have a couple of times searched the web franctically to find an actual play podcast or stream series, and have been sorely disappointed. The only youtube-video I found was by HERO Evangelist, who made a single video five years ago, and then there is the Narosia introduction on Drink Spin Run, and then there is a Champions intro as well on Happyjacks (but maybe only a single episode?). I think this would be an amazing platform to introduce new people to the game, who might come to watch the show for the sake of the show, and then want to try their hands on it themselves, and it would an opportunity to show people how it works in practice, as well as a basis for explaining core concepts in video format. Of course, this required equipment, time, some theatrical flair and a group with a willingness to participate, so I understand why nobody has done it. But if the only thing holding someone back from doing this is realizing that this is a possibility/opportunity, then I thought I might mention it. Just my 25 øre.

That actually makes a lot of sense. So giving it a limitation (Self Only) would in a way negate the nature of the power by applying it to the individual instead of an area as it normally would,

Thanks for the responses so far. That was also my first thought, but won't it require the tracked character actively trying to conceal their trail? It seems to me that there is a distinction between actively hiding your tracks (Tracking Skill) and the environment making it harder for someone to be tracked (Change Environment). Or am I just reading too much into the descriptions in the books? I really like this one, thanks.