Bolorhaig

Re: eliminating the SPEED chart it isn't precisely the SPD chart that slows down the game - plz note earlier that i mentioned the SPD chart was the FIX i'm looking at rather than the PROBLEM. (if i didn't mention that earlier, it was entirely implied and everyone should have read my thoughts in that regard!) wat's slowing our game down is the frequency with which the most inexperienced players are acting (SPD 5 and SPD 6) combined with the length of their actions. someone mentioned something about 'if it takes 40 actions for a combat' etc etc - would that be 40 actions at SPD 4 or 40 actions at SPD 6? the former takes 10 turns (2 minutes game time) the latter takes only 6-2/3 turns (1 minute 20 seconds game time). the difference doesn't sound like much until you realize it's a drop of 33% (or an increase of 50% depending on where you start). see the problem there? if the player with the SPD 6 character takes 5 min to resolve his every action, in only a 24 second (game time) combat he's taken an hour of our session. drop the same character to SPD 4 and in a 24 second combat he's only taken 48 minutes. again, doesn't sound like much but with 2 of them that's reducing combat time by almost half an hour, and if ur running 2-3 combats per session now you're talking about the saved minutes really adding up. it could be argued that slowing down the higher SPD characters will actually lengthen combat as the team will be less effective as a whole. that's possible, but i consider it largely mitigated by an equal reduction of SPD on the villain side (incidentally, one of the things i've come up with for this is making all non-supers - that is those built on no points or 'agent style' points - act only on the odd numbered phases). i want to enthusiastically thank aylwin for posting that other SPD discussion. some very salient points there. one of my more experienced players did bring up the issue of more frequent recoveries for basically everyone with my proposal. we've decided to let it play out a couple sessions and see if it really makes that big a difference. my intuitive fix, if it becomes a problem, is lengthening the Turn from 4 Phases to 6. using the 40 action combat mentioned previously, this would reduce the total "free" recoveries from 10 to 6. i have concerns even with that - it is an intuitive fix after all and would undoubtedly have its own problems. again, it looks like we're going to let it play out a few sessions and see what happens. bolorhaig

Re: eliminating the SPEED chart I'm confused as to how you think equalizing everyone's SPD will improve the situation. New players need more time to assess their options because they are less familiar with the game. That can be alleviated with experienced players assisting, or exacerbated if they are less helpful ("you bonehead - why didn't you use MP Slot #12"), but the olong term solution is that they need to grow into the rules and their characters - whether their SPD is all over the map or identical for all characters. this observation rather makes my argument for me. they do need more time to assess their options, and they are unfamiliar with their options. the SPD chart is 1-just another consideration for an already overwhelmed player and 2-forces an already overwhelmed player to decide/resolve his action more frequently. i'm talking about easing this situation by eliminating 1 very influential factor in the time it takes to resolve a turn of combat. again, perhaps i'll re-instate the SPD chart later. lol, perhaps my players will decide they like the game w/out it. either way, champions is a wonderfully flexible system that allows the GM to conceive of major structural changes like this w/out serious disruption of game play. bolorhaig

Re: eliminating the SPEED chart once again ignoring responses from the 'school of resentment'... while i very much appreciate the many constructive suggestions that greater organization might help fix my problem w/the SPD chart, plz believe me when i say that it won't. my issues are not specifically with the SPD chart itself - an understandable misconception since that is the thing i'm aiming at for a fix. rather, the problem has many layers and includes: 1-i've got 4 players (out of 7) who've never played champions before. true, fixable by greater player knowledge of the rules and/or simply taking their descriptions of their actions and translate them myself into mechanics. neither of these fixes has worked. 2-my current SPD window for the team is 4-5-6. one of the SPD 6s and one of the SPD 5s are 2 of the inexperienced players, so not only are they sometimes uncertain about their actions but they're uncertain about their actions more often. true, fixable by intervening when the player chose a character too complicated for his/her experience level. however, these are adults with pride and preferences of their own. one wanted to play the character w/the utility belt and martial arts, the other wanted to play the character with the multipurpose blasty rifle. some GMs might not mind intervening on that level with character creation, but i do. 3-SPD inflation. everybody has seen it. the team starts off as a certain set of SPDs, in our case 4, 4, 5, 5, 5, 6. the somebody figures they're character would be much better with a higher SPD. my game theory is, with a rules set as flexible and player driven as champions it's better to try and say yes than simply refuse even if i hate the idea. so one PC creeps up SPD by +1. then others want to consider it, or perhaps it was 1 of the SPD 4s and now there's only 1 SPD 4 on the team and that player is feeling left behind in terms of SPD and wants to increase. it goes on from there... true, fixable again by heavy-handed intervention in spending exp. as stated above, this doesn't work for me. my group is playing pre-generated characters: the Champions (defender, nighthawk, sapphire, witchcraft, and ironclad) plus 1 of my creation. i used the Champions write-ups as guidelines but tweaked all of them some more some less. since the players had so little actual say in the creation of their characters, however, i feel it's doubly important to try not to restrict their exp spending so they retain some feeling of influence over their character development. the above list should not be considered exhaustive. As some of you must also be, I'm now going on 3 decades of champions play and judging. i do not undertake lightly to do away w/the SPD chart - it is in my opinion the best and least offensive fix to my current problem. as did sage, i hope to re-instate the SPD chart in the future when my players are more comfortable w/the game and w/declaring and resolving their Phase with more haste. steamteck's comments are much appreciated, as are all constructive posts here. bolorhaig

Re: eliminating the SPEED chart i won't respond to the 'school of resentment' tone of some of these replies and will instead attempt to cull what positive discussion points can be found in them. i appreciate the request for a more specific outline of my goals. however, in my experience on public threads making a point-by-point defense of my reasons for wanting change is tantamount to inviting further argument about those reasons rather than about the change itself. there are problems with my proposal when high DEX characters are concerned. however, they aren't so different, and are certainly no worse, than the problems when a SPD 4 goes up against a SPD 6 - the higher SPD character always has extra time to employ either offensive or defensive techniques. only one example is the period from segments 3-6. the SPD 4 goes on 3, if he didn't already abort because of an attack on 2, and the SPD 6 can abort his 4 b/c if he's +2 SPD on his foe he's very likely +DEX also. he can therefore be confident in moving first on 6. in these 3 seconds he's moved TWICE as fast as the SPD 4. this same problem occurs from 9-12. both are opportunities for the SPD 6 to grossly exploit the SPD differences and make effective attacks while maintaining defensive options. one fix i've considered is having defensive maneuver bonuses last only until the aborting character's DEX would come up again on the following turn. this forces him to abort again next turn if he's attacked below his DEX rank, keeping him on the defensive. not sure what to do yet with defensive powers such as desolidification. mud i very much appreciate your considerate response. drugged or otherwise slowed characters are an interesting consideration also. perhaps this allows for the inclusion in the campaign of a new physical disadvantage? PHYS DISAD: acts at half speed (frequent, fully impairing) for 20 points or even (all the time) for 25 pts? if defensive maneuver bonuses only last until the aborting character's next action would have come up (ie the aborted action he gave up), then the 'attack on DEX 30 and abort on 29' syndrome is less of an issue. his aborted action will pass, then the lower DEX foes can attack w/out having to deal w/the DCV mod or watever, forcing him to abort again or suck it (also described above). as i mentioned, this idea still doesn't resolve defensive POWERS such as desolid or force field or force wall. the aborting character activates a defensive ability and sits there uncaring about his DCV. however, even that has its drawbacks. 1-having aborted his next action, he's an obvious, unmoving target open to 2 Phases of attacks, even with the defensive power up. 2-having erected force field or force wall, he's increased his defenses but is still target-able for haymaker which will land before he has the opportunity to act (abort) again. desolidification is the real trouble spot here (i've played in campaigns that allow abort to TP but we don't unless the aborting character is Diving for Cover, but if TP was abort-able that would be an issue too). assuming no attackers can hurt him, the aborting character essentially renders himself immune to attack until his DEX rank 2 Phases hence. however, even that in itself carries a form of vulnerability. foes, seeing his tactic, can hold actions and wait for re-solid while the aborting character can't move (though he could maintain the desolid for a couple Phases and move away, but that's an option in regular SPD chart champs too). as always, i welcome constructive (perhaps i shud add non-combative) comments. bolorhaig

Re: eliminating the SPEED chart sigh wat i'm asking for here, are thoughts and observations based on the assumption that i am going to eliminate the SPEED chart (or, if u don't like that language, make everyone a SPEED 4 more or less). i am not going to defend my decision to take it out of the game, and i will no longer be replying to suggestions otherwise. i'll ask, AGAIN, that a general debate about other topics be aired in other threads. thank you. for example, one consideration that quickly occurred to me was aborting. in our normal champions game, you can't abort on a phase you've already acted. however, w/out segments in between their phases, is it fair to impose that restriction? i think not, so i'm leaning toward letting combatants abort even after they've acted in a phase, giving up their next action, but restricting them from aborting again until their regular next phase would have come up. another consideration is haymakers and generally any power with a +1 segment activation time. i don't want them going off in the next phase - that could potentially create a situation where someone could land a haymaker and then make a normal attack in rapid succession. here, what i'm leaning toward is having haymakers land on DEX 1 of the phase in which they were started AND reducing the DEX rank of the attacker's next action by half. until that reduced DEX rank came up, they'd take the -5 DCV penalty for haymaker. anyways, these are the kinds of things i'd like to discuss here. i appreciate any constructive comments to this effect. bolorhaig

i think i found it recently was pointed toward a possible solution by another player, who suggested looking at transform as a way to take control of computers. i went hog-wild w/that idea, and i think i may have found the power set i've been looking for. w/out many of the finer details... 1- transform 'computers or computerized devices into same, but now under PC control' (major), AoE radius (quite large), no range, persistent, indirect, with several other adds here the PC can (eventually) take control of nearly any computer or computerized device (like a gun or car w/a computer chip in it) just by being near it. this DOES put a lot of pressure on the gm to decide how much BODY a computer has (book suggests 1 for objects undefined in BODY score) and to decide how much each computer can do. the upswing - it puts the computers squarely in the PC's control w/out using a mental power. YES, i realize that using transform as a kind of mind control is a form of mental power according to ultimate mentalist, but again that discussion has mostly to do with targets possessing an EGO score so i tend to discount it. 2- clairsentience (unusual sense group for the detect below) for "reading" digital data and/or memory, dimensional (cyberspace dimension), rapid (quite a lot), up to 4 simultaneous points of view (initially, this will be purchased up with exp), and others here the PC can read data off any computer in range of the clairsentience and quickly sift through that data for target info. this seems to have no downside IMO, and again the upside is that there's no EGO contest w/the computer. 3- detect computer and/or computerized device, rapid (again, quite a lot), transmit (so PC can send his instructions; transmit reads "can send the same kind of information he can detect"), discriminate, analyze, concealment for the transmit, and others here the PC can sense any computer-chip containing device around him and gain a lot of detailed info on it: capacities, connections, etc etc. again, no EGO contest so i'm happy there, and no fuzzy rulings necessary for this alternate power. i'm working on fitting all 3 into an EC (cost end limit for the detect), and it's coming out really well so far. thnx to all who threw in their 2 (or 3) cents on this thread. i'm considering it closed. take care bolorhaig

Re: cyberpsychic i will definitely check out that resource. thnx again so far, the most solid version of what i want that i've encountered is probably transformation attack. it's used in some champs sources as a form of mind control, ie transform 'human' into 'human under my control', and i'm thinking it could work the same way for computers. it avoids an attack vs EGO, which is one of things i'm trying to steer away from here, and has an established defense that is actually fairly relevant to the special effect i want for this write-up. anyway, just an update really. i'm still looking. bolorhaig

Re: cyberpsychic i'd love to see any salient reference material. thnx for ur suggestion bubba. however, i'm having trouble finding the material u've referenced. i thought i owned everything hero's ever produced just about, and i don't have a book called 'urban fantasy hero'. there's obviously nothing like cybermancy in 'fantasy hero'. i do have a lot of urban hero materials, and if there's something in one of these u think might help would u mind offering a specific book/page? thnx bolorhaig

Re: cyberpsychic that is a great idea. is that based on the assumption that the gm is going to allow the sense-based adds, Transmit and particularly Rapid, to apply to the use of the advantaged Computer Programming skill? i can see some problems w/a broad interpretation there, but it's a great direction to drift in w/this build and see where it takes me. bolorhaig

Re: cyberpsychic just an update to my own thread the computer programming idea, which remains my best alternative so far IMO, also remains problematic due to the time required to use the skill. i could get a bunch of xtra SPD limited only for using the computer programming, but that still limits the character to more or less the speed of a VERY fast typist in performing the skill. there are suggested skill penalties for rushing a computer programming check, and one solution to that would be simply purchase enough computer programming skill-power to make those deductions negligible (<-sp?). one alternative that works much more smoothly is clairsentience, extra-dimensional, with the dimension defined as 'computer memory/cyberspace'. combined with (possibly a LOT of) speed reading, this could allow the character to read data right off a drive with virtual impunity. bolorhaig

Re: cyberpsychic

Re: cyberpsychic

Re: cyberpsychic i may be off, but i'm pretty sure in 5th ed (revised) it lists "skill" under powers and says they can generally be purchased with all advantages. again, i may be in error there. detect is definitely a great idea for this character. i want him to be able to sense any computer w/in a large radius (i'm thinking something like a couple kilometers even) with discriminatory and analyze on the sense as well. not sure about that use of transmit. does it actually allow 2-way communication? would it allow influence to be exerted across the transmission? seems like that may be getting into tricky territory - not sure i would want someone to think they could buy mental awareness with "transmit" and use it as a kind of mind control. unfortunately, this last thought leads me back to where i don't want to go - an EGO power, namely telepathy in this case for establishing a mental link over distance. bleh, can't seem to get away from them! lol a good start for this discussion, regardless. thanks for ur input, and i of course welcome any further feedback or ideas you have. bolorhaig

i am working on a framework more than a build really. a bit dissatisfied (sp?) with the whole ego-powers-vs-machines-with-no-EGO idea, i have been trying to find different ways to reflect cyber-kinesis w/out using EGO powers. preferably these alternatives would be affordable for a normal superheroic character (ie in a 350 pt build). some alternatives i've considered: 1-computer programming purchased as a power was an early choice. add the area radius (selective) and indirect advantages with the no range limitation, and the character can hack into any computer in proximity. problems i've considered here are the time it takes to use computer programming and the possibility that a gm might want the character to have to use TK to actually punch or activate the keys. 2-various forms of images to manipulate the display or a sensory read-out, purchased vs normal sight to scramble monitors and/or video sensors. problems i've considered here are user PER rolls define the effectiveness of the display scrambler and this power isn't really making changes to the actual software just the display on the monitor. 3- clairsentience and/or transform purchased with extra-dimensional advantage. the dimension defined is "cyberspace", allowing the character to "see" into the data on the drive and manipulate it as if it were an object w/physical form. this version could potentially be VERY powerful but also very expensive particularly if you want to use it on more than 1 computer at a time. problems i've considered here focus on the same problems i have w/using EGO powers vs machines w/no EGO: it requires the GM to improv the computer's resistance vs these abilities. at one point in 5th ed rules it suggests 1 BOD per 1 mb data; this seems extrememly unfair to the cyberpsychic. just now in 2009, with actual technology, we could be talking about a computer w/effectively 100 BODY to resist his abilities! so, i'm looking for suggestions on these kinds of powers. as a guideline, what i'm trying to do is duplicate what the EGO powers could do to computer minds WITHOUT using the EGO powers. i'm finding that a good place to begin is re-defining the mechanical status of computer intelligence and data - for example, the idea of the "cyber" dimension. i am open to your ideas and look forward to a productive, constructive discussion. thank you bolorhaig