MagePro

Sweet! Good choice of forum software! Now everyone can continue their political bashing while I attend to more computer stuff! LoL!

Not bad. Wonder if there is a future option for the detailed suspension coming later. I was looking over the Invision features and didn't see a 'coming soon' section. I'd love to see that someday. How do you set the timed interval of suspension? Is it calendar based or a drop down list like week, month, 3 months, etc?

Strange that it should have a place in gaming, but for the sake of testing... Also, does the Admin rights allow banning from a discussion group or topic or is it for the whole forum? That type of granularity would be amazing!

Simon, You are amazing!! I think we had PM'ed about this some time ago. I check back to look to see if someone had done a 5th ed version of Plasmoid in HD and I find this. It's almost 11 at night and I am so happy and now I can't sleep. I can finally use HD on my biz wiz laptop with the insane rez.

You mentioned the Ultimates. I'm looking for a FRed version of Plasmoid. Did an official one get done? The last I remember seeing him was in the 4th ed Champions Universe book. From some sources, someone said he was dead. I'd still like to see one anyway.

Re: Base Power, Disadvantage or just sfx Oooo! Contamination! For some reason, I hadn't gotten to that part yet. The things in her library/labs could be affected as well as visitors clothing or belongings that are kept down there. This is also determined (partially) by depth and the surrounding area. Perhaps knowing where this was and how deep, might shed more light to this. So, the 'bolt hole' is closed or open-air? By this, I mean does Gaia leave the tunnels open if there are visitors? As for making it a slot in a MP for a transform to keep it clean, this could be a rather large area to do a Transform to. Perhaps 'Change Environment' would be a better choice. If it's not going to be used much or involved in the campaign other than just a place to hide away, I'd say that as long as Gaia has the Power skill, she can do it however she wants. Considering Tunneling gives you an option to close the tunnels or leave them open, I think it's all covered. Minimal cost in points won't matter until the GM decides she needs to start putting some points into it to maintain it. IF it is decided that it needs to be a Base, then just the area covered, its underground location and maybe it being Secret would be all that needs to be applied.

Re: Base Power, Disadvantage or just sfx I agree that the main concern here would be the environment and fresh air. There is also the concern of leakage of liquid or gases that might be toxic. One more concern is the possibility of collapse. If purchase as a Base, the +20 points for being underground should take care of the collapsing, but does it also imply that it is safe from leakage and supplies fresh air?

Re: Harry Dresden WONDERFUL!!! As per the TV series, he did, on several occasions, wiggle his finger at a lock and it opened. So, I would have to say, if based on the TV series, magic was the source of that ability. However, I would never discount his own ability (no doubt picked up from his father) to pick locks or squeeze through impossible positions. I'm guessing there were a few areas of departure from the books we haven't even hinted at yet. Bob is limited in his range from the skull, but I'm not sure what the radius would be. As for possession of the cat, I have yet to see any 5th Ed version of the Spirit Rules. This brought about a question that should be in another area, but it concerns a scientiest having his spirit trapped in a mechanical body. The Dr. is able to control the body, but, aside from the obvious issues, he's still a spirit controlling an automaton. A bit different than Bob and a cat, but Spirit Shift and Possession are missing from the books now. I'm off in search of the threads about Spirit rules for 5th Ed.!

Re: Harry Dresden WOW! You guys ROCK! I'm so excited you guys have chipped in to help out, so if I sound a little disjointed, forgive me. Let me try and sum up some of my conclusions according to everyone's input. I'm sure by now, you are asking what type of campaign is this for? We are working on a RIFTS game. Our characters were just before the Great Cataclysim, frozen. They were meant to be awakened after a few months. 500 years later, they wake up and discover a new world. They are less than two miles from a large ley line and those that were inclined towards magic or psionics are felling powered up. So, imagine Harry in this situation. They only things he's got left are his wand, staff and Bob. The only 'home' he has now is a small shared area of a science lab and a crash-chair inside a redesigned stealth APC on its way to Dayton, OH from some place in northwestern Montana. Correct me if I'm wrong. Harry has a huge VPP, but he can't hit the broad side of a barn without a wand or staff (or tons of time and/or END). The attacks are probably area effect or something that prevents it from being too focused as a power and may cost more END than normal. The other small things he does, like opening locks are more than just Lock Picking. Could it be Lock Picking through TK or is it something more like a Transform from Locked to Unlocked? His skills/KS's are formidable. He doesn't appear to be much of a combat monger, but he is a planner with lots of enchanted foci. Some foci may take time to charge up, some are automatic. (Someplace, there is a thread on missle deflection being automatic as I'm assuming it works even when he's asleep. But that's a whole 'nother kettle of worms.) Not counting his 'office' or lab, even though he needs the protective items in his office and his lab makes things easier to store stuff in... I just wanted to figure out Harry and his usual carrying items. Bob... Ok, so I've seen some possibliities in the TV version being both a Follower or a Contact. I wouldn't put him in as an NPC, but he could be counted as a Contact Spirit with useful abilities and knowleges. I don't know if you can legally place a limitation (like tied to so many meters from the skull) on a Contact or not. Either way, it may allow you to have Bob with more points than you could get as a Follower as the defination is more open for a Contact. For about 34 points, it gives an 18 or less roll, Spirit, Extremely useful skills and a Very Good Relationship. I decided against 'Slavishly Loyal' for some reason. In HD v3, there is a multiplier I didn't quite understand at first until I read it in Fantasy Hero, but I think Bob is still might be cheaper to do as a Contact. Bob might be considered x3 or x4, but I'm open to ideas. X4 puts Bob at 68 points, so depending upon how many points Bob turns out to be, you can build a pretty heafty Bob-the-Follower for 320 points. Technically, with the amount of his involvement with Harry, by definition, Follower would be a more accurate description of Bob's function. But, it's difficult to do 'spirits' of Bob's caliber from the few books I have. There used to be a good book that had spirit rules, but I haven't seen one for 5th Ed. Is there one? When Harry's uncle re-appeared, Bob did not betray Harry to his previous 'owner.' Other than the fact that Bob must have soem free-will where that is concerned Do the books explain in more detail just how Harry's uncle came across Bob and how 'owership' was transferred? If figured knowing that would help establish how they (Harry & Bob) are tied together. I don't think we are going to worry about the 'Council,' the Wardens or the others as RIFTS offers enough confusion. However, the deal with tech not working in some areas and magic betting harder to do the further away from a ley line might be a little more complicated. Plus, we are trying to figure out the properties of a Ley Line. Any ideas on that would be helpful too! OK, I'll now, THANKS!

Re: Harry Dresden

Re: Harry Dresden So, has anyone tried to do Harry in 5th Ed?

Other than a Transform, what can be used to invisably silence a character? Not perminatly mind you, just for the course of the combat or adventure. The thought is to silence a leader so they can't give orders. (or in one case, use their voice activated powers.) I thought about Darkness that only affects the hearing perception group, but that doesn't quite fit the bill. I thought that the effects would work something like a Flash for a duration, but that has issues of its own. Transform was the only other power I could think of, but I figured that would be a Major Transformation "To a mute person" and too expensive for something so simple. That leaves me with Entangle. Hmmm... That could wind up being very expensive as well. This needs to fit into a 50 point VPP as a spell with hardly any limitations (no incantations or guestures, etc.).

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules BTW: Billy T has it right on! With our groups, we've taken Regen out of the Healing group and threw it back to 4th Ed. No fear shows in the characters/players eyes when the take a debilating hit in Fantasy Hero or a Justice, Inc.-type game using 5th Ed rules on Healing. They are actually seperate powers IMO... it's like the difference between an Energy Blast and a Ranged Killing Attack. It's the same basic concept. They both do damage, but in different ways. Otherwise, why not just put an advantage on to Energy Blast and call it Killing damage or something like that? Another power that is often overlooked as an example is Penetration. The first appearance (in 5th Ed. Rev.) of this power occurs in the description of the Advantage, Hardened. (How Hardened provides 'protection' against Indirect attacks, I have no idea. p 260) (re: P115 5er) There are strange rulings that only make sense at high power levels. Such is the case that limits Penetration when applied to STR and how it effects other things like weapons, combat/martial arts maneuvers. In a campaign that limits attacks to 50-60 points, a low STR with some martial arts benefits NOTHING from the STR having the Armor Piercing or Penetrating Advantage. The answer, just buy more dice. In that case, the only thing that makes your detailed Martial Artist different from a typical brick is the costume they wear. Ever try to add Penetrating to a Martial Arts Maneuver in Hero Designer? A simple 4 point maneuver gets increased to 21 points. Who can afford that just for some special effect they are trying to do? For another example of something that doesn't make sense... There is a reference to Pass Without Trace that is purchased as Gliding with a 'Limitation' called Ground Gliding that allows them to ignore losing altitude. IMO, it does not apply adequatly to this effect. (re: P182 5er) If it also included RSR built into this, I might see the balancing element, but it doesn't. This is more of an Advantage than a Limitation and pigeon holes the possible effects. It is literally Flight that costs no END now, only much cheaper. For characters that don't have much running, Flight bought for 6", 0 END with the Lim's Ground Only (not on water or other similar surface such as ice), No Vertical Movment and Limited to Characters Maximum Movement on foot, etc. would limit Flight enough to maybe even cost less and give the same effect... depending upon how much value is assigned to the stated Limitations. Once again, IMO, it is not necessarily the example that voilates the rules as much as a 'Limitation' that doesn't limit the power enough to call a limitation that causes the issues. OFF TOPIC: I guess, my main complaint rests with some of the changes made between 4th and 5th Editions. Many of the changes and clarifications have been great, but there are many that have spoiled some playability for older characters. IMO, the system favors bricks and your basic flying energy projector to an unfair degree. Overall, I've learned that you can't expect to take a well rounded (with apprecable background skills) character and have them be effective 'weapon against crime' at the same power levels as 4th Edition at the same point level. So, I guess the question is, if we were to even begin to try to 'convert' from 4th Ed., how many points more than the character was in 4th Ed. should I expect them to be?

I don't quite grok the Multiform rules. See! This is why I love this forum. Somebody is always there with an answer! Are you talking about a MF character here or OIHID? __________________________________ Am I close? Let me reiterate my understanding to make sure I have it right. So, MF allows you to build another character up to the points limited by the new character guidelines for the campaign... correct? Although I'm still confused about the caviots of the costings, I think I'm beginning to get this through the denseness of my skull. me. My original confusion was based on the concept of base points vs total points for the character. In other words, I didn't know if MF paid for the other characters Base Points or the entire cost of the character. I was further confused about the interaction between Disadvantages, Base Points and the impact of the cost of MF on both characters (Primary and Secondary). As I understand it, in 4th Ed version of MF (that I never really used anyway), if the Primary character spent 60 points to build a 300 point secondary character, they didn't really get a 300 point character as the Secondary character had to be less points than the Primary. (Primary character is built as a 300 point character) The Secondary character would be 299 points minus what it cost to create it (60 points) to equal 239 points. (Would this mean that the character only had to come up with 39 points in Disads?) Of course, this brings in another question about Limitations on the MF power that reduce its cost. The question here is, if the limitations bring the cost of the MF from 60 points down to 30 for the Primary character, is the Secondary character now allowed to be 269 points? Th above point is moot unless trying to associate 4th Ed with the changes implimented in 5th Ed Revised. In 5th Ed. Revised, they have cleared up some points concerning this, but muddied the waters in such a way that it's confusing. From the back postings in this thread, it's obvious. With the new version, they have eliminted the limits in the maximum value of the Secondary character with-in the power to allow that function to reside with the campaign limitations for beginning characters as well as being subject to the limitations on power levels as set by the GM. This leaves me with a couple of the same questions I was left with from 4th Ed. about Limitations being applied to the MF power. If the MF power is 60 Active points, but Limitations lower that cost to 30 Real points, does it matter to the final cost of the Secondary character? I have a request: When I finish with the MF character/s, can you guys paruse them and help me tweek (and maybe BG 'Munchkin' them for fun?) them? _________________________________________ XP Distribution and point multiplications There has been several mentions of the GM continuously having to police MF, Duplication, Followers, Bases, Vehicles, etc. where costing is concerned as well as how the XP is spent. Can a NPC character earn XP? Of course. The question arises, is it really the NPC's XP's or the GM's or the Players to use on the NPC? This might be one of these Case-by-case circumstances. How well do you trust your players? Hugh mentioned that in a MF character, it doesn't matter which character actually earned the XP, the Primary character has control of the points. Even though the Secondary character is the one that earned the XP, if the Primary wants to spend it all on everything else other than towards that Secondary character, they should be welcome to it. If I'm not correct with theis Hugh, let me know. I guess it can be considered like a Multipower in the distribution of points when there is either a fairly large active base or many of the slots are Variable (not Fixed). However, in the case where they are pretty much completely diffferent characters, why not let them earn their XP seperately and develop independantly just as two seperate characters would? In the above case, there would be two logical functions that would/could apply. After the point of creation, the characters earn XP in a 1-1 ratio based on the individuals actions during the awarding of XP. To help balance the growth, I'm thinking about adopting my previous explaination of earning vs spending.Each character earns their own XP. The Secondary can't spend XP until the Primary spends XP in MF in a proportional amount for the Secondary's XP. _________________________________________ Back to Dragon, MF and the evils of Growth As Growth is part of the base MF, I figured it would be 0 END, Persistant and maybe even Inherent. It would also be Always On due to his inability to get smaller in that form. I'm not sure what other Limitations would apply, due to his ability to MF. Would the Limition Always On really be a Limitation in this case? We have discussed this over and over in the past and it seems like any power that allows it to be altered/changed would negate an absolute Limitation such as that. Even with the Physical Disadvantages reinforcing the inability to change size, Just how perminate is it really? Perhaps it's the wording of the Limitation - the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law that gets in the way here. Am I missing a Limitation called All or Nothing? Even with limitations of extra time and costing tons of extra endurance just to change, MF is still a relatively perminate altering power. As it was mentioned before, there has to be a place to draw the line in the sand. _________________________________________________ Random Ramblings: I know that both Steve and Dan have said that the Revised Ed for 5th is the official ruling, but in order to get the whole picture, you have to read through every little footnote, side-bar and even then, there are times they don't agree or is not possible to find in the index. The information is scattered about the book in what I felt was a hap-hazzard fashion. The only way we have been able to find some of the information we've been looking for has been the references listed using the 'Define' function in the software. That's one of the reasons I haven't felt obligated to spend $50 on a poorly organized manual. That's why the software Dan has written and this forum is so important! BTW: Considering the changes Growth has been through from the first version of Champions in the early eighties, it has gone from being nearly neutered in 4th Ed to a power that is so heavily weighted negatively, it's almost not worth purchasing the power. When the extra movement was completely stripped out and all the detailed negative attributes of the power added in, I was begining to wonder what was going on. Don't get me wrong. I still believe that the Hero System is one of the best game systems out there for true RPG. I just struggle with making things so expensive (in the system as well as financially) that it becomes difficult, if not impossible to keep up. Updating characters from one version to another becomes more than just difficult. Maybe we should start a new thread called disallusioned. Tom

I don't quite grok the Multiform rules. WOW! I went from the begining to the end of this thread and felt like I went through one of those classes that just run by you and leave you with the question, "Did I get my question answered?" All in all, very good stuff! It got me to thinking about how to handle this in our groups games. I'm still left with few questions I'd like to run by you guys. As of this point, I don't own a 5th Ed or 5th Ed Revise book, but I do have the software. So, my understandings of the rules are a little vague. Here's the setup: I was reworking a character from before 4th Ed that was an OIHID character. Essentially, he's a dragon that has the ability to become a human. He is basically the same person, but in a different body. The GM suggested MF be used, but I ran into some questions concerning it. They are very basic at the start, so please, don't laugh too hard. I'd hate for one of you guys to get hurt. The setup: Camp. Setting - 200 points base with no more than 100 points in Disads. - Basically, 300 point characters. I am not sure about the new MF costing. What, exactly are you paying for?Does it simply allow you the right to create another 300 point character (minus the cost of the MF) including Disads? Does it just apply to the Base Points allowed for the secondary character (200 points which would mean the secondary character would only be 260 points. The secondary character could only get up to 60 points in Disads.)? [*]Originally (4th Ed), it would have to be the Dragon form that would have to pay for the MF as it is the form he would revert to if MF was suppressed or 'dispelled.' However, now, it doesn't matter except in the case of the -/+0 Advant/Disadvantage called Revert or Reversion. Considering this option in place, I believe it points towards the Dragon form shouldering the burden of the MF costs. [*]This is just a few suggestions/questions about XP's. I believe the game system was originally aimed towards character creation for role-playing and combat was a secondary thing. With that in mind, I approached XP spending from the viewpoing of character development and story/campaign progression. As in my case with the dragon that turns into a human, the character is the same person, just in a different body. Many of the skills are the same, but there are somethings that a 20+ foot-tall-at-the-shoulder dragon couldn't physically do. Would he still have those skills? (Secret ID could play a factor in things like Contacts, etc. and dramatically affect the answer.) The XP's would be awarded to the primary form to divvy out as needed, right? In the case of a character with differing personalities (true MF), I would say that if the secondary form earned the XP, then it should get it under the condition that the primary has XP points to put into the MF to match those points. This would forces the player to play the wimpier character in order to get XP's across to the secondary character, right? Part of my overall feeling is that MF may not be the best solution for this particular character. OIHID may work better for him. What are your thoughts? BTW: Growth now totally sucks! Tom