Pappystein

Re: Modern Firearms in Hero system I have spent the last couple of weeks doing just such. I still have not ordered 5ed Dark Champions (next month) so I can not go over what has already been covered there. However what I have seen thusfar mostly covers Muzzle Energy, Sectional Density, and Muzzle Velocity. Little mention of Impact Sectional density, KE Transfer (re STUN) or other such matters. Point in fact it is these exact variables/Limitations/Advantages that make realistic gun combat a distinct possibilty with this system. I am hoping to have a "Core" list of Bullets (all FMJ for now) with DC and StunX info as well as any other advantages/limitations needed within the next 14 days. I am currently coming up with my table of energy to DC factors. Anway Hope to have more soon Pappystein

Re: Top Secret Gadgets Anyone done a MP5K Briefcase gun? Also if you want you can make the MP2000 (Never produced in qunantity but real world tested by Seal Team Six) the same way (MP2000 is basicaly an MP5K with Intergal but removeable Sound supressor and improved accuracy (+1 OCV). I do not have a write up for either of these yet.... however here is a link to see what I am talking about http://www.hkpro.com/mp5k.htm BTW HKPro is probably the best site on the net for hard information about any Heckler and Koch weapon including the underwater dart gun used in the second Tomb Raider movie. Craig P

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration Not quite true. The new BR vests are stoping 7.62x39 Russian rounds which are a rather low velocity bullet. Put the same vests up against a 7.62x51mm Nato Round and it will fly right through it (Higher velocity on similar sectional density). However that does not help the inital question. I just posted the other day in the main Hero system disscussion board about what the origional question is. http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=563277&postcount=1 No new charts but during creation you have to take a couple of extra steps. Eg a 9x19mm Nato round fired from an MP-5 Submachine gun is going to penetrate more armor than the EXACT SAME 9x19mm Round fired from a Smith and Wesson ASP. The difference? Barrel lenght! Top it off and with modifications to your damage roll you can simulate all the differing types of bullets out there. Eg a Pre Fragmented safty Glaser round would be treated as an Energy Blast not a RKA etc... I have not aquired the 5th ed Dark Champions yet so I do not know how detailed it is. However what I am proposing to complete (givin enough time and testing) would be to overhaul the Gun CREATION side of the game. Right now as I state in the above thread I have over FIFTY bullet/Barrel combinations for 9x19mm Nato (including the 9x19mm NATO Sub Sonic and 9x19mm Parabelum related rounds.) I use the Hit location chart in Champions in a limited way. For my "Super Heros" that want to pretend they are just Normal Joes (I have 2 of them in my current campaign) I have them roll the hit location chart for their gun shots. My Olympian and my "I am Captian Ameri.. errr Major Liberty!" characters I do not give this mechanic to as they both deal in inate powers. So if it is a Focual Power it tends to hit the Chart using a fixed StunX etc. If it is an inate power I do NOT let them roll on the chart unless they are going to SET for a phase to take carful aim (then you are dealing in OCV modifiers to hit a spec location... just happens to be on the same chart:) Sorry I do not have a defenitive mechanic YET but I am slowly working on this project. Craig P

Re: A question for the gun gurus out there While the IMI Timberwolf is out of production there are many AR-15/M16 conversions to 44Mag or 50AE or shell variants their of. A few examples of these are: Tromex 440 Sledghammer: 10 rnd Box of .440 CorBon (.50 AE shell necked down to take the 44Mag bullet.) The .440 CorBon has just about the same damage as the .50AE but is going to penetrate more armor due to smaller sectional density (assuming you are using a FMJ or better a true AP round.) Tromex 44 Sledghammer: as above but 44Mag Tromex 50 Sledghammer: as above but 50AE. All three can be fitted with scope and bipod easily. Hess Arms HAR-15: 10 rnd Box of .50AE. Available in both Suppressed version (using subsonic loadings of .50AE) or standard. Suppressed version is normaly used as a short range sniper system to take out guards while infiltrating a building by SWAT/Anti Terror forces Olympic Arms (part of Bushmaster now IIRC) CAR-23: 10 rnd box of 10mm Norma (or 10mm FBI... same bullet basicaly.) There are many more examples out there as the M-16/AR-15 Family is huge. I would not be supprised if with the imminent production of the G36 here in the US as the M-8 to replace the M-16 and M-4 in US Forces if the G36 didn't start coming out with interisting permutations either. Although I do not belive the G36 is as modular as the M-16 Family. Craig P

Re: Being creepy and Bodyguard skills Heh, Funny you should mention some of those. I had a disscussion about this subject with most of the group I role play with this afternoon. One of the members IS Creepy (as we have defined it here.) On looking back at him and my previous statement I would have to say that some senses will need to be added or subtracted based upon the character concept. If I would apply the senses my RPGmate exibits it is touch and sound. Sight wise he looks completely normal and there is nothing "visiual" to call him out. Basicaly the character would have to decide what senses his Creepiness is "detected" by and what ones can "see past" the creepiness. Craig P

Re: Being creepy and Bodyguard skills Creepyness, Over the years I have delt with a lot of people who were like how you are describing your character (atleast the bad vibe bit). However looking at this from a "normal Joe idiot" way of things, I would feel MUCH safer (to the point of ignoring said creepy person) just knowing they were restrained. While this might be takeing a sledge Hammer to an acorn nut I would probably go with the following: Power Name: Creepout (Mental Illusion) Class of Mind: Human (All subgroups) Levels 4D6 Modifers: Continious (It is never not on, even when he sleeps) Uncontroled (He couldn't turn it "off" if he wanted to or knew about it) Dose not provide Mental Awareness (Self explainatory on that one) Requires light to use (He has to be visible to the "target" Not the exact intent of this restriction but a valid point none the less I think) Restrainable (See above) Stops working if Mentalist is knocked out (No longer a threat again see above). Limited by Senses: Touch/Taste Group (Touching a person does not give a vibe off) Limited by Senses: Radio Group (Ditto) Limited by Senses: Mental Group (Someone with any sort of Mental Awareness would be able to tell the "good character" this person realy is) As stated above there are several reasons why I prefer this method. 1) everyone reacts differently to the same thing. If you are going to creep people out you have to change what you are doing to each individual person...err "Target" . 2) anyone with an Iota of Ego (or better yet Mental Defense) would not have major issues soaking this up after you adjust your DC levels to match your campaign's normal NPC/PC people. 3) I like to do things the complicated way (oh that is not a valid reason!) 4) Someone who is blind would not be any were near as badly by this person than average Joe. Sight is the key sense we as Hunams err Humans use to tell if things are "Right" or "wrong." 5) in my campaigns powers like this I tend to roll once at the start of the eppisode/adventure/insert your favorite term here. This power eliminates enough people to fit your story nicely. 6) I like to do things the Complica.... oh wait! I already said that one There are a lot of reasons to go down the road of the PRE attack... However I do not see your character's Girlfriend falling for him if he has a continious PRE attack ongoing. I won't claim to know the rules half as well as others that have already posted but to reconsile what you are asking I think this is the best route based upon my experiences. Re Your Character's ability to weed out the Chaff from the crowd... Hmm Initialy I like Clairsentience Linked to Danger Sense. However I tend to not allow the higher levels of Danger Sense to do more than provide "you feel a threat on the nearby roof" Unless my Characters roll a natural 3 they would not see the Sniper who is in a Ghili Suit and burried and blended into the refuse on the abandoned warhouse's roof... Danger Sense 30pts Out of Combat General Area (I define this in this instace as covering anything in the visible area, not through walls, doors etc). Precognition Sight group and Normal Hearing 16pts (real cost) Precognition only -1 Fixed Perception point (SELF) -1 Time Modifiers -1/2 (This sense is 99.9% of the time going to cover stuff in the next few seconds-miniutes). Only Increased Arc of Perception 360 Degrees +5pts No Concious Control -2 Triggered, Auto Reset (Danger Sense activated) +3/4 Hope this is any sort of a Help Craig P

Re: Modern Firearms in Hero system I would tend to beg to differ on this point. As I explain in the super long reply here within, all bullets do two things. They Stun a person and they physicaly damage them (Body). When the Japaniese Self Defence Force had to engage the Red Brigade (I THINK whatever the Japaniese Based Pro Communist terrorist group was/is called) in the late 70s there were numerous of the "bad guys" who would take 5 or 6 9x19mm Nato FMJ bullets and keep on coming. I would not classify these guys as even compentent normals. FMJ Bullets just don't do all that much damage (yet it is what Militaries are limited to by the Genoeva convention). Hmm Morbid...??? Thats OK. I wasn't expecting to win over a Billion converts with just a small blurb A Given Gun has a fixed barrel lenght correct? A completely different gun has a different barrel, also correct? The same bullet will not do the same thing out of each barrel. I just break out the Barrels into like sizes (eg 6-10" lenght.) To go more detailed then that would require a book of boreing tables the size of the 5ed Revised Hero rule book! I do not have the time to create such a monster and to be honest within small ranges you will have similar performance. So a 9x19mm NATO FMJ bullet works in 5 Barrels (5) a 9x19mm NATO FMJ SS (Sub Sonic) works in 5 Barrels (10 total). a 9x19mm NATO JHP works in 5 barrels (15 total).... I think you get my point After developing a moderatly viable mathmatical formula for damage classes the next hardest part is actualy keeping track of the hundreds of kinds of ammunition! I think there will be more math used to keep track of the various types of bullets than there will actualy be absorbed into the Damage class levels. Who ever said I did things the easy way??? Thanks Craig P

Re: Modern Firearms in Hero system A) Thanks everyone for the Greetz! Hope I am able to contribute to this group as much as I have already gleaned. Before I get into HOW I got what I have (mind you what I have is not fully tested/balanced YET) let me tell you WHY I do this. I am the kind of guy who has to take EVERY new toy he gets (Car, Computer, TV, Radio, RPG they are all the same to me), tear it apart and see what I can do to improve or do new things with it. Hero system is the first RPG I ever played (Hero 4.0 in 1991ish.) To me the Hero system is STILL the most flexible and real to life RPG out there. With that in mind I am now FINALY doing my best to reach the break point to find ways to try to improve the game. I am currently doing this with Harpoon 4.1 and Computer Harpoon3 (mostly new data but several new rules can be directly attributed to my work.) My work in this area is winding down. Since I just came off doing a major gun combat conversion of the now obsolete White Wolf system (Eg Vampire the Masquerade, Hunter the Reckoning etc) I feel I am uniquly suited to take on this as has already been stated daunting task. Anyway enough of the Ohh listen to me Soap Box! Let us get down to the nitty gritty. C) HOW did I get over 50 possible 9x19mm Nato round combinations... 1) Gun combat Kinematics (super simplified with almost no math) The same bullet fired from two different barrels will react differently from one barrel to the next. Barrels are chosen for Range, Controllability, Reaction time, and most importantly body impact dynamics. I chose to currently offer a "Selection" of barrels for small arms. The Barrel Lengths are 1-3" 3-6" 6-10" 10-17" 17-21" 22-26" and 26-30" . Bullets however have a range of barrels that they work with and others that actually REDUCE over all performance. For the 9x19mm NATO round I determined that the 22" and above barrels are not useable as the barrel itself will slow the bullet down (max pressure has been reached in the volume of the barrel tube before the bullet exits the barrel. 2) Each type of bullet will do a differing amount of Physical damage and Stun damage. A FMJ or TMJ bullet will tend to do the average damage and stun of the group. AP Bullets tend to do more body with less stun. Glassers, Wad cutters and any other name you want to put on the JHP or JSP bullets (most all of the fancy named bullets fall into these two categories in my experience) do more stun than average and slightly less body but have a reduced penetration level. Some bullets are categorized as one type but fall into a different category in how they actually do damage. The Russian 5.45x18mm PSM Pistol bullet is a prime example of this. The tiny bullet (both power charge and size of the physical shot) are classified as a FMJ (Full Metal Jacket) In truth it should be classified as an AP round as it has a VERY heavy Tungsten Core (similar to the Tungsten cores used in the US M1A1 Abram's primary 120mm cannon!) 3) Special Power loadings disrupt and further add to the number of separate bullet types needed to develop a full suite of Ammo. The 9x19mm NATO round is a direct copy of the 9x19mm Parabelum round from WWI and WWII Germany. The only differences are a new shell casing to withstand higher pressure loads, a new gunpowder to improve velocity and modern production means (IE new ways to mass produce the weapon to have less production caused variances from one round to the next.) Likewise the 7.62x51mm NATO (also know as the 0.308 Winchester Magnum) is a direct modernization of the 7.62x64mm 30-06 shell from WW1 and WWII. This time the performance is identical to the earlier loading in terms of range and hitting power, the difference is a shorter cartridge that is lighter to carry. Now days you can purchase 9x19mm NATO rounds that are rated for +P or even more fearsome +P+. So you can buy your FMJ 9x19mm NATO round as a 9x19mm NATO +P FMJ bullet. It will go farther, work in longer barrels to the exclusion of shorter barrels, and do more damage when it hits a target at the same range as the standard 9x19mm NATO FMJ bullet. Ok that is a LOT to take in. Needless to say I have some excellent source materials to base a lot of what I am doing on. Primary amongst them is a Firearm book that was designed with Role playing games in mind. The book (Published in 1991 I think) actually has Hero System 4.0 ed Gun damage in it for all calibers! The book is “The Compendium of Modern Firearms†by Kevin Dockery. Kevin is at my last look STILL employed by the US Secret Service as the Armorer (read Gunsmith) who is in charge of building the weapons used by the Presidential Protective detail (yes he builds up the guns used to protect the President of the United States.) In the book there are many ways of covering damage. Some translate via minor mathematical conversion (ok minor only if you have a super cool spreadsheet) to an “average†Body and an “Average†Stun for any given FMJ bullet from ANY GIVEN BARREL! Yes the damage models presented in this book alone are WELL worth the current purchase price on Amazon.com ($24 US used IIRC.) I have not yet actually invested the time to play this out to the ultimate end (eg a Spreadsheet that only requires the entries of Bullet type, Barrel length, Muzzle Energy and Muzzle Velocity to figure out Damage classes) But as you can see if it will be received by the community I am more than willing to dive down that road. As an aside I have currently built a small series of test weapons using various concepts and ideas on how to deal with differing types of ammunition and their use in a “real world†situation. Several of my players (3 of them to be exact) have “acquired†test weapons and are currently alpha testing them (unknowingly.) Results vs Viper were about were I would Hope to see them. They are now facing COIL (all new Characters for COIL based on an expanded campaign adventure.) I am expecting to have results in soon. Sorry for the long response (and my very “whut iz Spulling? Grahnmer??? Nuver ‘eard of it†style of writing.) But without getting into all the math and research I have done I hope you can understand were I am going with all of this. Again thanks for everyone’s kind words, plus the information I need to make my next decision in this process. Now it is time to drop a Force Wall in place, activate my FF, and put on my super cool armor suit *Ducks and covers* Craig P

Hi Everyone, I am wondering if anyone has given thought to a more enhanced damage model to firearms in Hero? More to the point I have Dark Champions 4.2, Hero Rules 4.0 and 4.1 (second printing with some minor spelling errors fixed) Champions 4.2 and Hero 5 revised. In each I see what I feel are major flaws with the Gun combat system. Damage is based upon the Diameter/caliber of the bullet. There is no change for bullet type, ballistics or bullet velocity. While there is not a hyper exact science to Bullet Damage there is a lot more I feel we can do in the current system. Has anyone already addressed these deficiencies or is this something that would be worth while for me to dive into? TIA Craig P PS to give an idea of how far I have gone I have 10 distinct 9x19mm NATO/Parabelum bullets with 5 Barrel lengths each (50 total distinct rounds!)