DreadDomain

somewhere else I have answered this... For me, this is a no brainer, a no contest. Over the years, there was one system to rule them all when it came to superhero roleplaying; Champions/HERO. I thought about creating a top ten ranking but after Champions, whatever would come up next would only be a very distant second place. To make this post a bit more than just “Champions is the best”, I have used different lenses when thinking about other systems that I am still fond of or interested about. Let’s see… The Nostalgia Effect There are a few games that always kind of interest me because of the good old days. It includes, Villains & Vigilantes, FASERIP, DC Heroes. I like these games but when it comes down to choosing a game to play or run a superhero game, there is less than 1% chance I would choose one of those games. DC Heroes specifically would also have to compete against M&M so even less likely for this classic. The Games I Read Over and Over Again These are the games I read, decided it wasn’t for me (didn’t scratch my itch or decided other games would suit me better) but still, occasionally come back to because of positive comments on these boards or elsewhere. Invariably, I come to draw the same conclusion. The comic-booky simplicity of those games is attractive, but it is not for me. They are not granular enough, or too hand wavy or don’t provide the full power definition or tactical options that I love. It includes ICON, BASH and SUPERS. Although they seem to be very good games, there is 0% chance I would end up choosing one of those. The Games I am Curious About There are a few games that I have skimmed through, thought looked excellent but really don’t have any kind of experience with them. They give me this warm feeling that I could love them if I would invest a bit of time with them… or they could become Games I Read Over and Over Again. For a game or a campaign, I could choose one of those games… but only if I had enough time to invest in preparation. Prowlers & Paragons is a nice-looking game that seems to fall between the simplicity of ICON and the full-blown power of Champions. Does it hit a sweet spot? Does it play well? Would it offer me enough options, both in character creation and in play, to satisfy me? Wearing the Cape might be a game that make me get, and like FATE. I haven’t read the novels but the game looks good. Where P&P might offer an easier Champions, WtC seems to offer a different game play altogether, more in the vein of Marvel Heroic Roleplay perhaps. Eschaton, powered by EABA is a game in the same vein as HERO and GURPS and both have an obvious influence on its design. The game uses very interesting mechanics (the resolution system, the turn rate) and a very deconstructed power design system that feels very powerful but somewhat hermetic and difficult to master. Granularity is good and the number of tactical options available seems reasonable. The setting is set after the Eschaton, the emergence of super-powered individual, and is introduced through scenarios on Day 1, Week 1, Month 1, etc. The game seems to be easily tuneable to get either a four-color style or a more post-apocalyptic feel. The books would benefit from better graphic design and editing. The Games I’d Like to Love These are the games I’d like to love enough so they could dethrone Champions or at least give an alternative. While those games don’t quite have what it takes to do so, I really do like the idea or the concept behind the game. GURPS Supers is surprisingly the only other system we have successfully used in a long-term superhero campaign (all other attempted collapsed quickly). GURPS is very granular and is very detailed when it comes to mechanics but scales very awkwardly for a four-color game. It does up to say Spider-Man level reasonably well but becomes somewhat difficult to balance at high level. To put it another way, it takes a lot of effort and campaign decisions to make it playable when you have a lot of points to spend. So why would I like to love it? GURPS is allegedly one of the best all-around system on the market and the support for GURPS is phenomenal in quantity (although mostly in PDF) and quality of content (less so when it comes to art). If it could do supers in a convincing way, it could end up being my one stop shop for roleplaying. The only reason I would use GURPS Supers these days would be for a gritty, low-powered game… but chances are I would still choose Champions anyway. Marvel Heroic Roleplaying soon to be Coxtex Prime (althought CP is more than just supers) really brought something to the table. It did make me think about roleplaying in a slightly different way. The system is very flexible across all power levels. However, it is not very granular, has limited tactical options in play and is very gamey. When we tried it, we really struggled to remain immersed in the story because the system is less about what characters choose to do in game and more about how the players will use plot point and assign rolled dice to get to a result to narrate. Still, MHR brings a totally different game style to Champions and the upcoming Cortex Prime could convince me to give it another go. With Cortex Prime, I will be able to pick and choose game elements according to my tastes. You can be sure Affiliations will not be used by me again. Mutants & Masterminds is closer to Champions than any other games on this list so it seems natural that it is featured. While GURPS Supers turns the granularity/options dial to 11, M&M turns it down to 7, which could be a good thing. While M&M fans will repeat the meme that M&M does 80% of what HERO does for 20% of the complexity, it is only exactly that, a meme. The numbers are chosen (sometimes we see 90/10) to stress a point: M&M is somewhat less powerful than HERO and somewhat less complex. My own perception of M&M is that it can do 80% of what HERO does for about 80% of the work (and because I am more fluent in HERO than M&M, it is currently 200% of the work 😊). The quality of the supplements is excellent even if they do not produce as often or as quickly as during the better days of the game. Full colour, hard covers with good art and contents, what is not to love. Add to it a streamlined scale and generally more compact write-ups than Champions and you really want to adopt it. However, the d20 resolution is swingy, the tactical options are not as numerous as it is in Champions and character creation not quite as meaty. I appreciate this is exactly what others are after but for me, it means that M&M is only 80% as enjoyable as HERO. The trade-off in the end is not good. Maybe one day it will click but for now M&M plays in the exact same space as Champions and unless I specifically want to give it another chance, I would never choose it over Champs. The Uncontested Champion (see what I did here) Champions is far from perfect but it ticks a lot of the boxes that I am looking for in a game. Characters are well defined with abilities, interact with the story in a tactical way and suffer very measurable consequences. As I said in another thread, Champions is very "crunch scalable" and most of the complexity lies in the power creation system. During character creation, the system gives you the power to detail, tweak, to the nth degree so you can mechanically come up with the exact effect you envision. But you don't have too. By choosing the rules enforced in the campaign, the GM contributes to set the crunch dial for the game but when creating a character, the player(s) also have a heavy influence on how crunchy they want to play. I’ve seen players (including me) totally enjoy the character creation mini-game, tweaky, changing, trying different powers until they were absolutely satisfied. I’ve seen other players creating ultra-versatile characters making them much more complex to play but hey, that is what they wanted. I have also seen other players putting a very simple character in half an hour. One of my most epic character was built that way. In play, because the game is so well balanced, how crunchy or detailed you go doesn’t really advantage nor disadvantage you (but that is not to say some builds are not more effective than others, it is just not a function of complexity). Once character creation is done, I have found the in-play experience to be one of the most immersive because the rules work in a way that you would expect them to work; they make sense. The Champions Universe is very well detailed and emulates the mainstream comic books from cosmic power gaming to dark urban gaming. The quality of the first batch of books published for its 6th edition is excellent. Champions, Champions Universe, the three Champions Villains volumes, Fantasy HERO and Star HERO are gorgeous books. My own personal favorite books are none other than HERO 6th volume 1 and 2. Champions Complete, while not as striking, gets kudos for returning the game to a much more manageable format (240 pages). What-If? But in true super-heroic tradition, what-if Champions didn’t exist? What system would I choose? That’s a tough one. Assuming I would still look for crunchy goodness, I believe I would try to get the most out of GURPS Supers but would complement it with better suited systems for high level games, most likely M&M or Eschaton/EABA. I could also give a try to the latest edition of V&V, which I haven’t read yet or, if could finally be bitten by the Cortex Prime bug. Irrespective of what my choice would be, there are so many good games to choose from these days…

Thanks for providing the exact quote. Just checking, you were agreeing with my Rubber-Man example, right?

6E does not assume shrinking (or growth) automatically provides growth momentum. You need to buy it separately if it fits the special effect you are after.

You seem to misunderstand what is written in the 6E write-up. Rubber-Man can shape-shift to modify how he looks (as perceived by the sight group) but not how he feels (he always feels like rubber). If he shapeshift into an old lady, irrespective of how perceptive you are with your Sight group , you could not use it to "see through" the shapeshift because Rubber-man looks and have the shape of an old lady. A successful, even critical, perception roll using sight would reveal an old lady... because it is precisely how he looks. However, if you shake "her" hand, you might be clued in by how rubbery she feels (using another sense). A perception roll would absolutely be legal and , depending on the special effect, the GM might let you know without even rolling.

Personally, I have no problem with this approach and your logic shows that point wise, all three powers are very well balanced (kudos to HERO). That being said, I really do not care for the fact that you need to beat your own BODY to transform yourself. It reminds me of Superworld where you needed to buy enough levels in flight to counteract your own size so you could take-off. Also, once you select Severe Transform, what is the maximum value (real cost) you can transform yourself into? You allude to it in your post above but that point still needs to be clarified. My own conclusion is that Multiform already does what you are trying to recreate and does it better but it is still nice to see a power repurposed to mimic another within a similar cost bracket. As for Shapeshift, the only really issue with it is the wording chosen which led some people to believe the power was not modifying your "shape" (as defined by how you look, sound, feel, smell, etc...) but was modifying how people perceived you. The "versus the Tough Group" clearly exacerbate the confusion. Aside from that, the power works perfectly fine.

Beast Boy is the laziest build of the lot. For a real game, I would insist that variable powers like multiform or VPP come with an array of pre-built examples. I have also used organization contact to simulate contact pool instead of using Universal Connections from APG. Generally, I prefer to use powers with the appropriate special effect (so for running I prefer to use running instead of flight or teleport) so I've added cheap adders to simulate running on vertical surfaces or liquids. Finally, I have created superspeed powers (based on multiple attacks and skill levels only to complete task quicker) instead of builds using AoE with selective. For the utility belts I have used the build in Champions Complete (if I remember correctly) but it annoys me to buy normal equipment (flashlight, med kits) with points. In the end, like every builds, they are debatable. I hope you enjoy the sheet.

Hey guys, I have upload a few sheets in the download section under DC and Marvel Sample Heroes. Let me know if it doesn't work well (the download worked well for me). A selection of DC and Marvel heroes created in Hero Designer and laid on a simple RTF character sheet with a lot of the technical text edited out to make it simpler to read but also to have a character sheet of a single page (except for Batman. Because he's Batman). The sheet uses Calibri Light font. Section titles are size 10, capitalized. Standard characteristic names are size 9, bold. The rest is size 9 with flavor names in bold-italic. I have never printed it so it might look terrible on paper but it looks nice on the screen. Most characters were built using a combination of the Super HERO gallery, my own ideas but also ideas mined from these forums. The exception is Colossus which comes 99% from The HERO System Book of Templates by Christopher Hackler (which you can buy from this site). The file contains: Justice League Aquaman (700pts) Batman (800pts) Flash (700pts) Green Lantern (700pts) Superman (800pts) Wonder Woman (700pts) Titans Beast Boy (400pts) Nightwing (400pts) Raven (400pts) Starfire (400 pts) Marvel Colossus (400pts) Daredevil (400pts) Spider-Man (400pts)

Will try to upload a few characters over the week-end.

Manually unfortunately. I looked into the export formats this morning and it looks way to much work to create one (at least for me).

Thanks very much Spence but there isn't much into it, it is just a Word file that I use from one character to another. I can upload a character or two in the download section of the board for people to grab if you want.

Thanks Sketchpad. I created this sheet because I was tired to look at long form HERO character sheets with all the technical lingo. Character sheets in say Champions Villains, are ok but the ones in Larger than Life make my eyes bleed. I wanted to break up the wall of characteristics (from STR to STUN) thematically to make it easier to read and I also wanted to edited out all the clutter in the power write-ups. I don't find that writing "Reduced END (cost no END), -1/2" is helpful, "0 END" is sufficient. I also wanted most of the character sheet to fit on a single page, including a picture. Section titles are Calibri Light, size 10, capitalised. Standard characteristic names are Calibri Light, size 9, bold. The rest is Calibri Light, size 9 with flavour names in bold-itallic. I have never printed it so it might look terrible on paper but it looks nice on the screen. I export a character sheet from HD (can't remember the name but it's one where the real cost of abilities and values of advantages/limitations are not shown), copy the content of my MS Word sheet and edit out some more (like find-replace Active Points by AP). Like I said, I need to learn to create an HD export format 😊. With a product like the one from Christopher, you can create a good number of Marvel inspired heroes in minutes. By dropping the HD file in my CS, I wanted to see how quick I could repurpose Chris' work into a full-fledged Marvel character. I'm pretty happy with the result.

Agreed. I was simply thinking of a few extra levels in Throwing

Hi Tjack, Just to be clear Christopher is the ne who has done a great job. I just took the HD file he provided, filled what he had filed off and laid it out in Word (I really need to leard to create an Export from HD). But I had the same thought. He needs a Fastball Special!!

I just wanted to give the nod to Christopher (@ Khymeria) regarding The HERO System Book of Templates. This is an excellent book to get people started quickly with character concepts that are very well-known. At 5$, it is great value and I want more of this. The fact that the HERO Designer files are included makes it even more valuable. If I may make two comments on the product: 1) It might not have been your choice but why name this supplement The HERO System Book of Templates? I believe it makes a disservice to your product and does not convey the flavor, nor the utility value it's due. I believe Champions Heroes: Volume 1 (assuming there could be more) would have been better at illustrating the goal of the suplement. 2) This book could be very useful for newbies and using the long form utilitarian character sheet format is a bit daunting for many. Having a short form character sheet excluding cost and advantage/limitation values and diving the stat block by functions (Characteristics, Movement, Offense, Defense, etc) would make the sheet more easily readable. Because you provide the HD file, we have all the detail anyway (well, for those who have HERO Designer). That being said, I understand it is a lot less work for you to use the formay that HD spits out. Anyway, thanks again for doing this and I hope you will come up with more. Your supplement inspired me to do this right after I bought it (I am sure you will recognise the content of the characetr sheet ) Thanks again!

Thanks, makes sense. With the limited capacity HERO/DOJ has these days, I was wondering what a new HERO 4E could be. I don't know how involved it is to prepare an old file for POD (I am sure it's not trivial) but GURPS now has a truck load of 3rd edition supplements as POD so it's definitely doable.

A 4e rule book coming out? Someone knows what this is all about?

Chances are most probably extremely low unless it is undertaken by a third party. In the meantime, you jay have seen in the HERO store two PDF converting the Dark Champions templates and super skills in 6E format.

I have been casually reading in the background and I think this is the crux of it. Brian stated previously that he didn't want to trigger an edition war but without going down that path, it is important to understand the strengths and weaknesses of the past and present editions. Skimming over a lot of detail, I (as in, in my opinion only) would summarise it like this. 6th Edition (HERO 6E volume 1 and 2) is the best toolkit published by HERO Games so far. Not only does it provide all you need to build your own game but it also provide tons of toolkitting advices; 3rd Edition (and before) is when the best games were published. Champions, Justice Inc, Danger International, Fantasy HERO were all using the same system but only the part of the system that related to their own agenda and alos expressed and presented in a way that made sense to their own paradigm (eg. equipments and vehicles not expressed and powers or characters) 4th Edition was the successful attempt to streamline the system but it also set a subtle trend that I would not recognise for many years after its inception. See 5th below. 5th and 5Er is really when the trend set in by 4th steamrolled full steam; Hero Games stopped producing games (there was a few exceptions) and fully focused on the toolkit or instruction manuals on how to use the toolkit to create our own games. I believe what Brian is aiming at is to use the 6E toolkit to create/publish games like it was in the good old days. A Danfer International game? No need to express equipment as powers or vehicles as characters. They have games stats and a $ value (or even a Resource Point value) and that is it. Want the game to include a broad range of talents? No need to express them with base effect, advanatage (+¾) and limitations (-½). You only need a game effect description and a cost in cp. But that is just the way I see it.

Would normal people be also vaporised by metas or would they keep the relative resilience they currently have under the rules? One way to make normals, well normal is to use the normal range of characteristics (6 to 10) instead of the heroic average the characters start at (10). A normal human with 7-8 Body, 14-16 Stun and 1-2 PD/ED will be a lot more fragile. Add rules like more lethat falling damage (6E2 p.141) and they will fall like flies. This is essentially the "Making objects more Fragile" rule found on 6E2 p.170 and the "Weapon Damage Genre by Genre" on 6E2 p.201. One thing a like about this is that it creates a clear boundary between normal gear and vehicles and super-tech. Want to acquire an off-the-shelf weapon, armor or piece of gear? Sure, don't pay points for them and rather get them through ressources points, money or in game reasoning. But be warned, they will be a lot less efficient against metas. You want the real deal super-tech? Buy 'em with character points.

Apologies, I haven't read the whole thread and I might just be restating what has been said before. HERO 6E2 is full of good toolkitting advices on adjusting healing rate, knockback effect, falling damage, damage inflicted by normal equipment to supers, etc. What you describe here is covered on page 171 and it suggests exactly what you propose as a meta-rule option and also suggest others you can use or combine. Grond with 18d6 damage will have a hard time to pierce the front armor of a tank but use the automatic AP vs normal object as a meta rule and he then delivers 8 Body damage on an average blow. Even Defender with his 9d6 STR damage is then able to damage it, although it would take a whilento destroy it. Combine it with one of the other options and you end up with maximum destruction...

One thing that bugs me with the evolution of HERO is the tendency to write everything in long form. The propension to write technology as powers and vehicles as characters (including all the advantages and limitations) seems to have increased and it kind of kills my ability to immerse into a setting.

I wonder, is there anything in HERO 5R that is not is either of the Character Creation Handbook or the Combat Handbook?

Fair enough but, to put it another way, if I had to choose between the publication rate of the 5E/5R era and the current publication rate, the choice wouldn't be too hard.

I had not looked at the Resource Kit in years. I have to admit I had forgotten how useful the booklet was as a reference. Aaahhh the years of HERO 5E/5R when books were published at a rapid pace... Good times.