Rhino

8 hours ago, Tech said:

Does anyone use those hi-end stated villains as written?

Yes, I do.  The big hitters are behind the scenes until the pcs get enough experience to have a prayer (with smart play and help).

And I don't intend any disparagement of Hero fans or munchkins.

Many Hero gamers are munchkins that are quite capable of building characters that have incredible capacity for the points. At convention games that allow players to bring their own characters, I let them bring whateve they want and dal I h it by using the higher level characters from Champions Villains.  It works.

Super Adaptoid

Invisible Woman

I am going. Not running anything this year fo a change. 

So, back to 4e and earlier rules, eh?

This was also a feature of 6E.  See 6E1 pg. 149:

The class of minds rules are intended to

provide flavor and intriguing options for Mental

Powers — not as a cheap way for abusive players

to try to make their characters immune to most

mental attacks. Unless the GM indicates otherwise,

assume all Player Characters in the campaign

are affected as if they belong to the Human class

of minds, regardless of their nature, where they

come from, or the like. For example, a PC who’s an

android is a machine, but if he’s smart enough and

self-willed enough to function like a human being,

he should probably be affected as both the Human

and Machine classes of minds (for which he may

be allowed to take a Physical Complication; see

6E1 425).

Indy523

Yes, this is another reasons why the APG entry on cyberkinesis could use some fleshing out. I think if you take mind control with the machine class of minds you will certainly want telepathy as well. Good points.

I think if you have classes of minds and machine class costs as much as human, you need to allow mental powers with the machine class minds descriptor to affect any reasonably complex electronic device within dramatic and genre sense. The APG has some good starting points, but I think it could use a bit more fleshing out with respect to a focus that has a user interface.

Never had the issue come up.  If it did, I would allow the telepathy and mind control to work only on electronic controlled complex systems.  If the system is controlled by a human, I'd allow it and it would be a standard mind control using the target's EGO.  If the machine has its own EGO, then it would be the machine's ego.  Effectively if Machine Control Man tried to take over Tony Stark's Iron Man suit, Tony would effectively fight for control of the suit's functions representing his EGO and INT.

I like this idea, but what would you use for the DMCV of the suit?

I just read, and think I will use, the advice in the APG.  Use a DMCV of 3 and AP/5 for the EGO of the machine if it is a focus, +5 or +50% (whichever is less) if it is IIF.  Use the table for EGO if it is not a focus.

I have a character in my game who has telepathy and mind control that only works against machine class minds.  How would that work if he wanted to interfere with the operating system of a villain's suit of powered armor?  Would this only work if the villain's suit of powered armor had a built in AI? If not, what would the DMCV of the suit's operating system be?  What would it's EGO be?

This was the VPP and sample powers of a player in my Champions Universe game.

71 By Will Alone I Set My Mind In Motion, 28 base + 50 control cost, Powers Can Be Changed

As A Zero-Phase Action (+1), No Skill Roll Required (+1) (103 APs); Limited Power Only

Powers of Percepton and Intellect (-½); all slots Requires A Roll (Int or Int Skill roll, -1 per

20 APs modifier; -¼)

0 Uncanny Deduction 1) Retrocognitive Clairsentience (Sight And Hearing Groups) (50 APs); Extra Time (5

Minutes, -2), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (½

DCV; -½), Vague and Unclear (-½), No Range (-½), Requires A Roll (Skill roll, -1 per 20 APs

modifier; -¼) Real Cost: 10 5end

0 Prescient Tactics 2) Precognitive Clairsentience (Sight And Hearing Groups) (50 APs); Time Modifiers (-½),

Vague and Unclear (-½), No Range (-½), Requires A Roll (Skill roll, -1 per 20 APs modifier;

-¼) Real Cost: 18 5end

0 So Predictable 3) Telepathy 8d6, Invisible Power Effects (Invisible to Mental Group; +¼) (50 APs); Receive

Only (-½), Limited Power No Fine Details (-½), Surface Thoughts Only (-¼), Requires A Roll

(PER roll, -1 per 20 APs modifier; -¼) Real Cost: 20 5end

0 Profiling 4) Telepathy 8d6, Invisible Power Effects (Invisible to Mental Group; +¼) (50 APs); Extra

Time (20 Minutes, -2 ½), Receive Only (-½), Limited Power Requires Questions and Asnwers

(-½), Limited Power No Fine Details (-½), Requires A Roll (Psychology roll, -1 per 20 APs

modifier; -¼) Real Cost: 9 5end

0 Convincing Argument 5) Mind Control 8d6, Invisible Power Effects (Invisible to Mental Group; +¼) (50 APs);

Extra Time (1 Minute, -1 ½), Limited Power Requires Conversation (-½), Requires A Roll

(Psychology roll, -1 per 20 APs modifier; -¼) Real Cost: 15 5end

0 Omnicient Defense 6) Desolidification (40 APs); Requires A Roll (Int roll, -1 per 20 APs modifier; Must be

made each Phase/use; -¾), Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (-½), Limited Power Must

Have Plausible Cover Against AOE (-¼), Limited Power Must Be Aware Of The Attack (-¼)

Real Cost: 14 4end

0 Combat Awareness 7) +5 OCV (25 APs); Requires A Roll (Int roll, -1 per 5 APs modifier; Must be made each

Phase/use; -1 ½) Real Cost: 10

0 Combat Awareness 8) +5 DCV (25 APs); Requires A Roll (Int roll, -1 per 5 APs modifier; Must be made each

Phase/use; -1 ½) Real Cost: 10

0 Precise Shot 9) Killing Attack - Ranged 2 ½d6, Armor Piercing (+¼) (50 APs); OAF (-1), Requires A Roll

(Int roll, -1 per 20 APs modifier; -¼) Real Cost: 22 5end

0 Precise Strike 10) Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2 ½d6 (3d6+1 w/STR), Armor Piercing (+¼) (50 APs);

OAF (-1), Requires A Roll (Int roll, -1 per 20 APs modifier; -¼) Real Cost: 22 5end

Buy Champions Universe 6e and Champions Villains, Vols. 1-3. I find these books have more incredible characters than any other superhero setting.

I think radio headsets built with HRRP just allow others to hear you speak over the channel.  You still have to speak audibly to be heard.  That's just the nature of the power.  Mind Link would only be appropriate for those ultra advanced communication headsets that allow subvocalization.

As a spin-off on this thread, but still involving Senses, Incantations, etc...

 

Does anyone think that when it comes to communication gear as presented in the books, that headsets should also be built with the Incantation limitation (or a similar limitation) since anyone using them to communicate must speak out loud for it to work? 

 

For example with the ones built using "Mind Link". Mind link is normally a silent (telepathic) way of communicating, but with a headset communicator the user has to speak vocally in order for the other person in the link to "hear his thoughts" so shouldn't this be worth an additional limitation as it could give away his position if he is trying to be stealthy or there will be times it will not work if he can't speak? 

 

Yes, almost all headset gear is built with the limitation: Affected as Radio and Hearing Group (and not mental group for Mind Linked based builds), but even in the books this is described as making the gear being effected by Darkness to Radio & Hearing groups (so they can be jammed, blocked, out of range, etc...) it doesn't take in to account that the user must also be speaking in order for them to work. 

 

As they are currently built (especially the mind link ones, but regular ones as well) in a sci-fi or super hero setting you could say that they mentally (ie, silently transmit thoughts/conversations via radio signals) and it costs the same as a dark champions type setting where the users have to speak, which doesn't seem correct as the extra inconvenience should probably be worth an extra limitation (possibly as Incantations)

 

So, should this actually be worth an extra limitation?

That just came up last night.  The team all had HRRP headsets.  They used them to coordinate attacks.  The invisible character's location was revealed by him talking into the mike.

Werewolves or other creatures that have Smell as a Tracking/Targeting Sense? Large AOE Attacks? Or else make the "challenges" more about protecting innocents/DNPCs/whatever rather than attacking him directly. Honestly, I probably wouldn't have approved the character because I have no more idea how to challenge him than you do. So I'm not sure how to advise you.

Yeah, we are in the middle of a fight against Red Winter (I am using Champions Universe) and White Wolf used tracking smell to locate his general area and Red Dawn lit him up with an AOE blast.  The Soviet Guard is using tactics and perception to figure out where he is based upon who he attacks and how. 

The reason I started this thread is because I have a player who bought invisibility to sight group, hearing group and mind scan with no fringe.  He uses a powerful multipower sniper rifle.  One of the slots is a blast with complete IPE and no knockback.  Another is an indirect attack that allows him to shoot through obstacles (he has the ability to see through them.) The combination is tough to challenge as a GM without it appearing that I am unfairly gunning for him.  RAW allows a non-targeting perception check as a half phase action to sense what hex he is in and reduce the penalties to DCV and OCV that normally apply (6E2 125).  We are having fun, and I don't want to unilaterally nerf his character design.  Any suggestions?

Probably because you do not need to interact with the environment to be visible within the various light/sight spectrums, but you absolutely must interact with the environment to be heard/produce sounds?  (Even an object vibrating in place is still moving a fluid such as air or water.)  I.e. The human foot makes no readily audible sound on its it (yet is visible on its own).  It is when said foot impacts the ground, walks across leaves, or interacts with the environment in some other way there is potentially something to be heard -- and that's simply not required for being seen within the visible spectrums. 

 

If you do not think invisibility to hearing would eliminate the sounds made by such interactions then what, exactly, do you think it should it do?

 

Surreal

 

P.S. This is also why I indicated 'yes' to the question about the wrench.  Invis to hearing would render the person's bodily impact to the wrench (which caused it to fall from the shelf) inaudible ... but it would do NOTHING about the wrench's impact to the ground.  Now if the person had been wielding the wrench, that'd be different, since carried/possessed objects are typically covered by invis ... but in the scenario presented above, that wasn't the case.

We could easily get into the weeds on this one. Sight is usually a passive sense, detecting ambient visible frequencies of electromagnetic radiation bouncing off of the surroundings. Sometimes it is active in that it involves generating electromagnetic radiation to bounce of the target. Hearing is likewise usually passive in that it involves detecting ambient sound waves generated by the target or by its integration with the environment. However it is also sometimes active in that it involves generating a sound wave and bouncing it off of the target.

Invisibility to hearing group could be interpreted to mean that active sonar and the such won't detect you, but your interactions with the environment would still be audible. Likewise with invisibility to sight.

OOPS - I just commented on this in a different thread thinking I had seen it there.It seems like we accept that a character invisible to sight can be detected by an indirect visible clue, such as the footprints in the dry leaves he walks in. Why is it not similarly possible to detect a character invisible to hearing by the indirect audible clue that those same leaves crunch under his feet?If we can see the effects on the leaves despite invisibility to sight, should we not also be able to hear the effects on the leaves despite invisibility to hearing? I think the two should work in similar fashion.

This is what I was pondering.

What does this mean exactly? I know it means that senses that are part of the Hearing Group cannot detect you, but what if you are moving? Can they hear your footsteps? What if you are walking on dry leaves?

I am having trouble determining when a combined attack is allowed.

I understand that a combined attack is not possible with a focus based attack and an additional version of the same focus bought using the equipment rules.  But what about two separately bought focus based attacks?  For example, what about a power ring and a staff of power?

I would model this by buying the penetrating vision that is limited to only penetrate your partner's smoke as well as focus based.

Thanks everyone! Now I grok it. It is for 6E, but I like 2 meter hexes.

I am having trouble visualizing the area of effect of an explosion on a map with 2m hexes. Is the target point the target hex or something different? How does the explosion degrade from that point? Any graphics?

I am Sonic Fist, the Silencer of Men.