massey

So this thread has brought up a lot of feelings for me, and more than a few thoughts that could be projections.
 
I have been around this system for a very long time.  I have made hundreds of characters, some originals, a lot of homages, and a a number of adaptations.  I have debated rules particulars about a variety of issues.
 
I am personally attracted to the system because of the rules of F/X or more specifically how f/x is not tied to the mechanic of an ability, so a blast could be fire or electricity or ice, etc...  I say these things to explain my Bias.
 
One argument that has been repeated is in regard to NCM, What Assualt called the Batman Fallacy.  This has always been one of the bigger ones, and it is founded on a couple misconceptions.  
 
1) NCM is the maximum a human (non augmented) character can have.  4th edition books (and later editions) made it VERY clear that legendary characters can go above it.  If Batman does not qualify as a legendary character...
 
2) The characteristic is what it says on the tin.  This ties into what I said about f/x not being tied into a game mechanic.  This misconception makes it so that people try to force a worst build based on a concept.  In essence punish a player for playing Batman instead of Mutant batman...
 
3) Points matter.  Two characters who spend similar points on similar abilities should be able to do similar stuff
 
Just as an example, I decide to run a campaign where everyone is based on a version of Superboy. 
Superboy 1 is based on the original Clark Kent Superboy.  He buys his strength as a characteristic 
Superboy 2 is based on the Reign of the Supermen Superboy.  Because of this mentality he NEEDS to buy Telekinesis with no range.  This of course costs him more endurance and 10 less strength for the same points, making him objectively worse character.  However for all practical purposes it is the same super strength.  This also fails point 3.  
 
So back to Batman, Batman is a character with many skills way above the norm.  He is tougher, smarter, scarier, etc...than a normal human (based on what he DOES).  Even though we are told OFTEN that he is a normal man who has trained hard, he is also often called "The Bat God" and for good reason.  
Now if we restrict the Batman player to making him under NCM, he will need to spend more points to meet the goals of the character concept.  This is unfair to the player.  You are at this point PUNISHING him for his concept.  IMO skill levels are really more for heroic characters, especially the more expensive ones...Some will say that it's fine because that is the "cost" of the concept, I say that is unfair.  So how do we make Batman so that he is as capable as a paranormal with powers based on being a "better human", simple, allow him to buy higher characteristics. 
 
Now, what does this all illustrate.  The fact is that what we really need is to be "fair".  Characters should be a similar level, built with the same basic theory on design...
 
 
 
 
 

True, but buying the military and police to make your claims stick is expensive.

Building inefficient characters is a mortal sin.  It offends the gods of Champions.

Oklahoma wins the Big XII title, 27 to 21, over Iowa State.
 
6th straight conference championship. OU has won 14 of the 25 years the conference has existed. The next most is texas with 3.
 
 Good times

By definition, Mister Fantastic couldn't be creating untold havoc since we were just told about it.

Sorry; there has been a _tremendous_ backlog, but I'll get there; I'll get there just as soon as  I can.....
 
 

 

Dodge and Block are basic combat options. We're not talking about Martial Maneuvers. I don't know why you think a magic-user shouldn't have access to Dodge unless they have some kind of Physical Limitation.

I like how they did it in Superman/Batman Generations.

The power doesn't have to mechanically kill the minion.  For Gm villains, it is enough that the side effects of the power *say* a minion dies.

Curse: 5d6 transform (normal to cursed), Gestures, incantations, side effects (nearest minion dies).  And done.
 
 
Many years ago I remember there was a thread on the old boards where everyone was proposing writeups for powers that would destroy a planet.  I recall one submission was something along the lines of
"Badass Dude": +5 to Pre, 1 consumable charge, Never Recovers (Planet you are standing on)
Everyone agreed that wasn't really what we meant, but it *was* mechanically sound.....

Even someone who has never been in a fight can try and block or dodge.  This is not using player knowledge this is almost instinctive.  When someone is trying to hurt you the first instinct most people have it try to avoid being hurt.   Even a small child knows enough to try and get away from the bully who is trying to beat him up.  Ever been picked on by someone tougher than you?  What is the first thing you try and do?  Get away from him (half move and dodge).  If you are cornered and he is punching your face what do you do?  Try and protect your head by putting your arms in front of your face (block).  If elementary school student can do it, surly an adult in a dangerous world can.  
 
To me it seems that it is more likely that a person not trained in combat would attempt to block or dodge.  They are not used to combat so are more likely to follow their instincts to avoid being hit.  Deliberately standing your ground so you can get in a hit seems to be more likely the move of someone with combat training than a noncombatant.  That would mean the character who is untrained in combat who does not cancel to a defensive action is the one that is more likely using player knowledge than the one who fights more defensively.   If the supposedly noncombat character is a mage and does not block or dodge so they can get their spell off that is worse use of player knowledge.   
 

In the JLA comics I read (late 90s), Robin wasn't anything.  That version of Batman's character sheet didn't bother to include Robin, because Robin virtually never showed up.
 
I think there are several "right" ways to build Batman and Robin.  One of them has Robin as a DNPC.  In this version, Robin is always getting kidnapped.  He's more of a pain than he is a help, and Batman often has to go out of his way to save him.  In another version, Robin is a Follower.  He's much more useful to Batman here, and sometimes can even save Batman's butt.  Anyway, he fights alongside Batman and is a competent adventurer on his own.
 
Another way to do it is to have two players, each with one of the characters.  Batman is more directly powerful, more efficiently built.  Robin on the other hand, may have some goofier powers with noncombat skills that Batman lacks.  So if Batman has a 12D6 Offensive Strike and a 6 Speed, Robin's best punch might be a 9D6 Martial Strike, but maybe he can hit an 11D6 Passing Strike when he swings in on his batline and kicks somebody.  He might also have several D6 of Luck, and maybe some combat skill levels that only apply when he's fighting with Batman (effectively, bad guys pay much more attention to Bats, making it easier for Robin).
 
Finally, I've toyed with the idea of making Robin the PC.  He's an average Champions martial artist with a utility belt and several powers that represent him being Batman's sidekick.  Chief among those is Summon: Batman, which he always uses when he gets captured by the bad guys.  So your 350 point Robin can bring in a 500 point Batman if the need arises.  This is basically "Robin as DNPC" just from the opposite direction.

I played a Batman-type character once, and I gave him a Megascale Teleport, with enough distance to cover the campaign area (basically the city and surrounding areas).  It had a limitation, "only to arrive at the scene".  The idea was that my Batman guy knew more than the other characters, and he left earlier without telling any of them what was going on.  Either that, or I just happened to be in the neighborhood when the crime occurred.  So basically the rest of the group would show up, and I'd step out of an alleyway and be like "took you long enough..."
 
Other players really hated that power.

I played a Batman-type character once, and I gave him a Megascale Teleport, with enough distance to cover the campaign area (basically the city and surrounding areas).  It had a limitation, "only to arrive at the scene".  The idea was that my Batman guy knew more than the other characters, and he left earlier without telling any of them what was going on.  Either that, or I just happened to be in the neighborhood when the crime occurred.  So basically the rest of the group would show up, and I'd step out of an alleyway and be like "took you long enough..."
 
Other players really hated that power.

Is it important that the game's mechanics reflect the character's process, or is simply having an appropriate outcome sufficient? Because you're absolutely right that modeling this Power so that the game's mechanics are doing what the character is doing is hard. Faking it, on the other hand, is way easier.
 
So if outcome is enough, it seems like this can be simulated by applying a Limitation to the Blast so as to make it a partially limited Power (see E61 366). For example: Kinetic Charge: Blast 8d6 (40 Active Points) plus Blast +2d6 (10 Active Points); Only On The First Phase After Which The Character Was The Victim Of A Successful Physical Attack (-1) plus +2d6 Blast (10 Active Points), Only During The First Turn After Which The Character Was The Victim Of A Successful Physical Attack (-½) plus +2d6 Blast (10 Active Points), Only During The First Minute After Which The Character Was The Victim Of A Successful Physical Attack (-¼). Total: 60 points. [4+1+1+1 END]
 
In other words, Kinetic Ken is shot by one of Gungirl's bullets. On Kinetic Ken's next Phase, he can loose a 14d6 Kinetic Charge. Starting the Phase after that and until the same Segment next Turn during which he was shot by Gungirl, Kinetic Ken can loose a 12d6 Kinetic Charge. And for 48 more seconds after that, Kinetic Ken can loose a 10d6 Kinetic Charge.
 
Then adjust the Kinetic Charge's damage and Limitation values to suit your campaign. (Also, Kinetic Ken's player should be reminded to not take it personally if one of Ken's allies, before combat begins, punches Ken in the face.)

Late to the thread as usual...
 
Block is an almost overpowered maneuver.  OP's players are fools. 
 
Use Block when:
Your SPD is lower than your opponent's. Your OCV is significantly higher than your DCV, especially if you're using levels and you don't want to (or can't) switch them. You're fighting one opponent. You have a large shield to block with. You have buddies who can kill your opponent for you. Use Dodge when:
You have a significant DEX advantage. You're outnumbered. You're fighting ranged opponents. You have buddies who can kill your opponent for you.  
The single most important tactic for both Block and Dodge is when the party is wolfpacking one or two large opponents.  To oversimplify, everyone reserves and waits to see who the bad guys attack, whoever gets attacked Blocks or Dodges, and whoever's left throws a haymaker.  This effectively raises everyone's DCV by 3 (if dodging).
 
The other thing to remember is, if the opponent's OCV is known, how much of a statistical difference a Block or Dodge would make.  Dropping an opponent's to-hit from 17- to 14- reduces the likelihood of a hit by around 10%.  Dropping the to-hit from 12- to 9- reduces the likelihood of a hit by 35%.
 
Blocking became so prevalent in our campaign that we had to ban 2pt. OCV levels, impose off-hand penalties to blocking with shields, and keep track of shield damage.  And wolfpacking is still a serious problem for large opponents, who eventually had to up their game with Sweep maneuvers.
 
 

In the JLA comics I read (late 90s), Robin wasn't anything.  That version of Batman's character sheet didn't bother to include Robin, because Robin virtually never showed up.
 
I think there are several "right" ways to build Batman and Robin.  One of them has Robin as a DNPC.  In this version, Robin is always getting kidnapped.  He's more of a pain than he is a help, and Batman often has to go out of his way to save him.  In another version, Robin is a Follower.  He's much more useful to Batman here, and sometimes can even save Batman's butt.  Anyway, he fights alongside Batman and is a competent adventurer on his own.
 
Another way to do it is to have two players, each with one of the characters.  Batman is more directly powerful, more efficiently built.  Robin on the other hand, may have some goofier powers with noncombat skills that Batman lacks.  So if Batman has a 12D6 Offensive Strike and a 6 Speed, Robin's best punch might be a 9D6 Martial Strike, but maybe he can hit an 11D6 Passing Strike when he swings in on his batline and kicks somebody.  He might also have several D6 of Luck, and maybe some combat skill levels that only apply when he's fighting with Batman (effectively, bad guys pay much more attention to Bats, making it easier for Robin).
 
Finally, I've toyed with the idea of making Robin the PC.  He's an average Champions martial artist with a utility belt and several powers that represent him being Batman's sidekick.  Chief among those is Summon: Batman, which he always uses when he gets captured by the bad guys.  So your 350 point Robin can bring in a 500 point Batman if the need arises.  This is basically "Robin as DNPC" just from the opposite direction.

The expression we use comes from an old episode of the Simpsons:
 
"You arrive in the vast cornfields of X"  where X is wherever it is they are going: the vast cornfields of Iowa, the vast cornfields of Manhattan, the vast cornfields of Atlantis- wherever it is they are going.  
 
We did "travel by map" when one of my co-GMs picked it up from I-know-not-where, but it quickly devolved into "you slide across the map and arrive in the vast cornfields of...."  and eventually disappeared all together.
 
But I agree in general: in the early days, I would enforce "you have to have a way to get there!", which I described above, and we still see some vestigial results from that.
 
Some years later, I realized that the entire problem is the GM's fault from the get-go:
 
The GM wrote the outline and set the locations for the adventure.  The GM needs to ensure that he has at least some alternate device by which the characters can participate, either close-to-home tasks to keep the walking heroes busy and important, or alternate transportation, even if its just a conveniently-passing-by news chopper.
 
Alternatively, he ca reset the adventure closer to home.  It is not the player's fault that a GM-approved character suddenly can't attend the GM-approved (or even constructed) adventure.  The GM did that to them, and they shouldn't be penalized for it.

A lot depends on the GM. If they want the team to be able to go to Tierra del Fuego, for example, they need to think about providing them with a way to do that.
 
At that point, however, the issue is one of convenience for the GM. That's not something PCs need to pay points for.
 
So, zero points for that ability.

If the PCs start abusing such privileges, zero point equipment can be taken away at the GM's discretion.
 
And yes, a Batmobile, Batplane, or even Wonder Woman's Invisible Plane can cost zero points. Also, BOOM!

Team vehicle seems like a pretty standard reply.
 
I can think of.... two?  times my players have ever done that.  Sure, it's part of the source material.  The problem is that for it to really make a difference, everyone has to live in the garage, or at least be equally-close (time-wise) to where it's located, and at all times.  While I see it (sort of) solving the "we show up at the same time" problem, all it's really doing is putting the "Get from A to B in a hurry" part of the equation at a different point, and making it effect everyone else in the team.
 

In the JLA comics I read (late 90s), Robin wasn't anything.  That version of Batman's character sheet didn't bother to include Robin, because Robin virtually never showed up.
 
I think there are several "right" ways to build Batman and Robin.  One of them has Robin as a DNPC.  In this version, Robin is always getting kidnapped.  He's more of a pain than he is a help, and Batman often has to go out of his way to save him.  In another version, Robin is a Follower.  He's much more useful to Batman here, and sometimes can even save Batman's butt.  Anyway, he fights alongside Batman and is a competent adventurer on his own.
 
Another way to do it is to have two players, each with one of the characters.  Batman is more directly powerful, more efficiently built.  Robin on the other hand, may have some goofier powers with noncombat skills that Batman lacks.  So if Batman has a 12D6 Offensive Strike and a 6 Speed, Robin's best punch might be a 9D6 Martial Strike, but maybe he can hit an 11D6 Passing Strike when he swings in on his batline and kicks somebody.  He might also have several D6 of Luck, and maybe some combat skill levels that only apply when he's fighting with Batman (effectively, bad guys pay much more attention to Bats, making it easier for Robin).
 
Finally, I've toyed with the idea of making Robin the PC.  He's an average Champions martial artist with a utility belt and several powers that represent him being Batman's sidekick.  Chief among those is Summon: Batman, which he always uses when he gets captured by the bad guys.  So your 350 point Robin can bring in a 500 point Batman if the need arises.  This is basically "Robin as DNPC" just from the opposite direction.

I played a Batman-type character once, and I gave him a Megascale Teleport, with enough distance to cover the campaign area (basically the city and surrounding areas).  It had a limitation, "only to arrive at the scene".  The idea was that my Batman guy knew more than the other characters, and he left earlier without telling any of them what was going on.  Either that, or I just happened to be in the neighborhood when the crime occurred.  So basically the rest of the group would show up, and I'd step out of an alleyway and be like "took you long enough..."
 
Other players really hated that power.

I played a Batman-type character once, and I gave him a Megascale Teleport, with enough distance to cover the campaign area (basically the city and surrounding areas).  It had a limitation, "only to arrive at the scene".  The idea was that my Batman guy knew more than the other characters, and he left earlier without telling any of them what was going on.  Either that, or I just happened to be in the neighborhood when the crime occurred.  So basically the rest of the group would show up, and I'd step out of an alleyway and be like "took you long enough..."
 
Other players really hated that power.

I have in the past joked Blip was the character, Space Ghost was a follower, and the two kids were DNPC...

Civilian-type vehicles can, at GM discretion, be had for free.  It doesn't have to be an '86 Honda CRX or anything like that, either: it can be a more-or-less bone-standard "fast car" or "motorcycle," even painted up in your hero's theme to serve as his personal Crime Mobile.  However, its a bone-standard thing.
 
He can buy a vehicle-- a complex crime-fighting machine of some sort-- with his character or experience points (check out the vehicle building rules for more details), and simple, one-purpose only vehicles can be called SFX for simple movement purchase like this:
 
Running ("Ground movement") 10". X10 NCM.  1 Fuel Charge lasting typically-appropriate time.  OAF: car.
 
There.  You have charged them for a car.  sort of.
 
 
Honestly, for most of my players over the years, they have gotten into the habit of dropping points into multiple multiples of NCM (reduced or no END on the multiples part of the price ).
 
 
I don't know if that helps, but perhaps it can get you started on something.
 
 

Back in the Fourth Edition rulebook there was a section on Powergaming in Hero.  They said that making a good character was what everyone wants but this is the guy who "takes Missing One Hand as a Disadvantage, but tries to get it per finger in order to get more points out of it."
It then goes on to give helpful tips on powergaming builds like "PlanetMan" who buys enough shrinking to keep planets in his pocket and then throws them at people, or "LandLord" who used the base building rules to buy all the space in the observable universe.

The basic point of it was that Hero lets you do anything, but that doesn't mean you should do anything.

Multiform exists because there are certain characters that greatly benefit from being able to buy it rather than do all kinds of torturous things with other rules to simulate that they are three different guys timesharing one body.  Hero doesn't tell you what you can't do, it gives you tools to build whatever you want and trusts your gaming group to all build things everyone will have fun with.