massey

Multiform is easy to abuse.  If the GM lets players get away with it, it's really easy to have a 350 or 400 pt "Billy Batson" as your main character, dump all your points into Multiform, then at the beginning of every game session you say "Shazam!" and fly around as an 1800 point monstrosity.  There is nothing in the rules to prevent this.  It's just up to the GM to say no.  Just because something is book legal doesn't mean you have to allow it.
 
In 4th edition, the main character was normally the one built on the most points.  As I recall, you could exceed the cost of the main character, but everything past the main character's point total cost 1 for 1 (you didn't get the 5 for 1 cost break).  So to become a 250 point character (which was the standard then), you'd pay 50 points for your Mutliform.  But to become a 275 point character, you'd pay 75 points for it.  They moved away from this in 5th edition.  But that requires the GM to keep a closer eye on the power.
 

My view on this is a little different.  A bronze weapon/shield/armor won't have significantly different stats than a steel version would.  In game terms, there's not enough difference to make a difference.  Def, Body, damage classes, those would be the same or very close.  The real difference will be in the types of weapons and armor available (particularly with weapons).  You just can't make certain types of sword out of bronze.
 
There's a reason that historical weapons looked the way they did.  That was the best version that people of the time could realistically make, for their situation.  Most of the bronze age swords were short, stabby weapons.  As I understand it, the Roman gladius was made out of iron, but it still resembled bronze age designs.  You can't make a katana with bronze, or a medieval knight's arming sword.  You'd have to make them too thick to really be functional.
 
Your artificer is going to be able to produce weapons that no one has seen before.  His swords will have a huge reach advantage over everyone else's.  They'll do more damage because they're larger weapons.  They might also have OCV/DCV advantages once the wielder knows how to use them, because opponents are so unfamiliar with them.  How would you fight a guy with a 19th century US cavalry saber if you've never seen one before?  How close can you stand before you're in danger?  People wouldn't know that stuff.

Multiform is easy to abuse.  If the GM lets players get away with it, it's really easy to have a 350 or 400 pt "Billy Batson" as your main character, dump all your points into Multiform, then at the beginning of every game session you say "Shazam!" and fly around as an 1800 point monstrosity.  There is nothing in the rules to prevent this.  It's just up to the GM to say no.  Just because something is book legal doesn't mean you have to allow it.
 
In 4th edition, the main character was normally the one built on the most points.  As I recall, you could exceed the cost of the main character, but everything past the main character's point total cost 1 for 1 (you didn't get the 5 for 1 cost break).  So to become a 250 point character (which was the standard then), you'd pay 50 points for your Mutliform.  But to become a 275 point character, you'd pay 75 points for it.  They moved away from this in 5th edition.  But that requires the GM to keep a closer eye on the power.
 

Multiform is easy to abuse.  If the GM lets players get away with it, it's really easy to have a 350 or 400 pt "Billy Batson" as your main character, dump all your points into Multiform, then at the beginning of every game session you say "Shazam!" and fly around as an 1800 point monstrosity.  There is nothing in the rules to prevent this.  It's just up to the GM to say no.  Just because something is book legal doesn't mean you have to allow it.
 
In 4th edition, the main character was normally the one built on the most points.  As I recall, you could exceed the cost of the main character, but everything past the main character's point total cost 1 for 1 (you didn't get the 5 for 1 cost break).  So to become a 250 point character (which was the standard then), you'd pay 50 points for your Mutliform.  But to become a 275 point character, you'd pay 75 points for it.  They moved away from this in 5th edition.  But that requires the GM to keep a closer eye on the power.
 

And thank _you_, Sir (presumedly); that clears things up considerably.
 
(Also thank you for the Thirteen flashback.   )
 
So, to answer your question:  Is there a reason to not take Multiform if you have Secret ID?  (rephrased to show my understanding of the question)
 
No.  There is no reason not to take it if you have a Secret Identity.
 
However, Mallet hit on some good reasons / problems.
 
I can offer some others you might want your players to think about before they decided on their final builds:
 
Did they take the actual Secret Identity Disadvantage?  If so, remind them that means that having their powers is going to complicate their "normal" lives, and that their "normal lives" will complicate their ability to be costumed heroes at will.
 
As an example: 
 
Clark Kent is _always_ Superman, even when he's Clark Kent.  So he can be kicked back, grabbing lunch at a sidewalk cafe when a gunman runs in, grabs the cashbox, and runs back out.   Well, he can't change his clothes right here and now without someone noticing (complicating his dual life), but he _does_ have his powers.  It's possible he can drop under the table and use a quick blast of heat vision to weld the gunman's sneaker to the sidewalk, causing him to fall on his face and allowing "normal" Clark Kent (or anyone else nearby) to jump on and restrain him.
 
If you have the Disadvantage Secret Identity and your laser face powers are in your alternate form, all you're going to be able to do without making trouble for yourself is watch the thief run away.
 
Do your players have Instant Change?  Some GMs will require this if you want fast access to your alternate forms (again: some GMs.  Not all of them.  I've met a range of opinions on this over the years).  If you and your charges are trapped at the bottom of an elevator shaft and Captain Cable Cutter has sent the elevator careening down up you, you don't really have time to go through that whole bit from the Incredible Hulk TV show before you and your friends win a trip to the afterlife most relevant to your lifestyles.  It doesn't seem like much, but it's something for them to think on.  (As a side note, it's also something for the GM to think on: if a character pays for Instant Change, he needs a chance for that ability to really make the difference for him.  Just such a scenario gives him a chance to shine, and his player to feel great for having bought it.)
 
What conditions may affect access to that alternate form, and how often might the secret ID "form" of the character find himself in it?
 
Those are the things to consider.  And of course, if your players are building 800 pt characters, you'll need to show them what an 800pt villain can do.  No; I didn't say straight-up murder them; I wouldn't even let them build characters and start a game just to make this point: that's cruel and wasteful.   Talk to them in detail; let them understand that getting 800 points by 'gaming' Multiform means an 800pt character, with half the abilities locked up behind the "multiform disadvantage."   Yes:  Multiform, Multipower, etc-- are all labeled as Frameworks, but at their very heart, they are an all-encompassing disadvantage for the abilities bought through that framework (which is, on an unrelated but dear-to-me note, why "no magic spells in frameworks" is such a knife-in-the-eye to me against the spirit the game).  Considering the rebate, it's a _big_ disadvantage, too.  Let them get a feel for that, and see if that's still the game they want to play.  If it is-- and it's the kind of game you're willing to run-- well, they have been warned.
 
 

In software, there's an aphorism.  Good, fast, cheap...pick 2.  You can't have all 3.
 
In voting, it's convenient for the voters, robustly reliable (any fraud would be small-scale at best), easy to count.  One is manageable;  two is getting hard.  All three...dream on....

At this point, I'd settle for an election where neither of the candidates were rank.

I haven’t seen that Powerpuff Girls episode since it came out, so probably about 20 years now, so I can’t help you on that.
 
i can help you on DC Heroes rules though.  The stat block in that game is organized in an interesting way.  Across the top, you’ve got Dex, Str, and Body.  These are physical stats.  In the middle going across, you’ve got Int, Will, and Mind.  These are the mental stats.  On the bottom row, you’ve got Influence, Aura, and Spirit.  These are the spiritual stats.  Physical stats are used in physical combat, mental stats are used in mental combat, spiritual stats are used in spiritual combat.
 
On the left column, you’ve got Dex, Int, and Influence.  These are your Acting Values, in Champions terms basically your OCV and DCV, for each form of combat.  So Dex helps you hit people and helps you dodge in physical combat, Intelligence does the same against telepaths, and Influence does it against wizards (magic is usually spiritual combat in DC Heroes).  The center column, Str, Will, and Aura, are your Effect Values.  In Champions terms it’s how many D6 of damage you’d do in that type of combat.  So Aura measures the strength of your soul’s roundhouse kick.  That’s good to know if you have to fight off a ghost or something trying to possess you.  The final column gives your Resistance Values.  Body, Mind, and Spirit act basically as defenses, as well as Hit Points/Body/Stun, for their respective levels of combat.

Ok, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying a Limitation is generally priced according to how it affects your options. A power that harms evil, but doesn't harm non-evil, is not as limited because there are few situations where you want to harm non-evil beings but not harm evil ones. Assuming evil opponents are common in the campaign. And no, it's not really equivalent to Detect Evil, because you can't detect evil without doing some damage. That would be like saying Fiery Blast is a free detect on characters who are invulnerable to flame.
The situation "I'm being attacked by a bunch of non-evil dogs" just isn't that likely to come up, and if it does, you would employ some other tactic. In my view it's very similar to Lockout in that respect, which is worth a -1/4.

I think I know what he means.
 
Limitations affect powers, and should be priced based on how they affect the power they're applied to, generally without regard to other things the character can do.  For example, if Superman purchases a hang-glider (10" of Gliding, OAF bulky, big turn mode, lots of other restrictions), then he still gets the full value of the limitations on the Gliding power, even though he's got 50" of Flight x250 noncombat.  His Gliding isn't more expensive just because he's got a backup power that's just as good if not better.  He's paying points for both powers.  His limitations don't become less limiting overall just because he spent more points elsewhere.
 
If Captain Swordsman has 5 different magic swords, each with its own weird limitations (only affects evil creatures, only vs vampires, does not affect those blessed by a priest, only vs dragons, etc), it doesn't matter that he's got backup weapons.  Those limitations are still real.  He bought each of those weapons individually, and they all cost points.  He shouldn't be paying full price for 5 different swords.  That's way worse than just paying for one sword that does everything.
 
Now... there are certain circumstances where a character is obviously designed with powers that negate his limitations.  The Mind Mole has 10" of Tunneling through 10 Def material (with the ability to close the hole behind him), N-Ray Vision, and an Ego Attack.  His tactic is that he tunnels down into the ground, looks up at you through the Earth with N-Ray, and then brain-zaps you over and over again.  He has an OAF magic wand that lets him do this, and an OAF magic hat that gives him 30 points of Mental Defense.  Unless he runs into a very specific enemy build, his limitations will probably never come into play.  This is a situation in which the GM is justified in saying "I can't think of any way this limitation will ever come up, so for you it isn't worth any points".  Doctor Destroyer's powers all come through his armor, but because it can't be damaged and he never takes it off, he doesn't get any points back.

I think I know what he means.
 
Limitations affect powers, and should be priced based on how they affect the power they're applied to, generally without regard to other things the character can do.  For example, if Superman purchases a hang-glider (10" of Gliding, OAF bulky, big turn mode, lots of other restrictions), then he still gets the full value of the limitations on the Gliding power, even though he's got 50" of Flight x250 noncombat.  His Gliding isn't more expensive just because he's got a backup power that's just as good if not better.  He's paying points for both powers.  His limitations don't become less limiting overall just because he spent more points elsewhere.
 
If Captain Swordsman has 5 different magic swords, each with its own weird limitations (only affects evil creatures, only vs vampires, does not affect those blessed by a priest, only vs dragons, etc), it doesn't matter that he's got backup weapons.  Those limitations are still real.  He bought each of those weapons individually, and they all cost points.  He shouldn't be paying full price for 5 different swords.  That's way worse than just paying for one sword that does everything.
 
Now... there are certain circumstances where a character is obviously designed with powers that negate his limitations.  The Mind Mole has 10" of Tunneling through 10 Def material (with the ability to close the hole behind him), N-Ray Vision, and an Ego Attack.  His tactic is that he tunnels down into the ground, looks up at you through the Earth with N-Ray, and then brain-zaps you over and over again.  He has an OAF magic wand that lets him do this, and an OAF magic hat that gives him 30 points of Mental Defense.  Unless he runs into a very specific enemy build, his limitations will probably never come into play.  This is a situation in which the GM is justified in saying "I can't think of any way this limitation will ever come up, so for you it isn't worth any points".  Doctor Destroyer's powers all come through his armor, but because it can't be damaged and he never takes it off, he doesn't get any points back.

The fact that you spent points on other abilities does not make this one less limited.  Having a 12d6 Blast does not make a 4d6 KA cost less because you will not use it as often.  Why should it reduce a limitation value on the 4d6 KA?

Equipment in Champions normally costs points, because you don't want to deal with that one guy who comes to the game session with a bunch of magazine articles about military equipment.  His character has 5 points of Wealth, and a 1 point Contact with "Army buddies" who secretly gave him a grenade launcher and anything else he wants. 
 
In Fantasy Hero, I'd say that there's no expectation for you to hang onto equipment you didn't pay points for.  This doesn't mean you can't pick it up, it's just not a part of you the way points-paid-for equipment is.  A +1 Longsword is kinda cool, but if you are in a fight with a slime monster and the sword fails its saving throw, it gets dissolved.  No more sword.  However, King Arthur does not lose Excalibur that way.  Excalibur doesn't have to make a saving throw.  If the boat he is traveling on starts to sink, King Arthur will have Excalibur at his side, or he'll have time to go get it.  Or a glow will emanate from underneath the water and it will rise to the surface, and then return to his hand.  He paid points for it, so he's supposed to have it.

If a GM tried to make me pay an Advantage for a weapon that only affected evil, I would leave his game.
 
No one has mentioned this, but there's an economic angle to Advantages and Limitations.  When everyone and their dog take powers with a particular Advantage or Limitation, then it's probably underpriced.  When no one ever takes it, it's overpriced.  I will take my 4D6 HKA one million times out of one million before I will take archer's 2D6 HKA "only vs evil" at a +1 Advantage.  So would every other person on this board.

As another option... 
 
Treat them as superheroes, only they haven't had their "origin" yet.  Their origin involves gaining magic items.  Have them write up their characters as 175 points, or whatever power level you decide to start them at.  Except that mentally, you've decided that their power level is "really" 400 points.  
 
Alternatively, why not either let them write their characters up at 175 points, and you add magic items to bring them each up to 400 points?  Or let them write their characters up at 400 points, including magic items of their choice?  
 
If the players and the GM want to play in a game where characters have a bunch of magic items... why not just start out with that?  Why pretend that it's a "standard heroic" power level game?  Why go through the gyrations of placing magic items for them to find?  
 
In a way, this is something like the "resource pool" expanded to include magic items, which seems to be pretty common among Fantasy Hero games.  

Oh, there's a reason why OIF is a Limitation.  It's because the equipment can go down with the ship.  
 
I'd assume that when you get back to civilization you can acquire duplicates, or spares, or replace them somehow, but "shipwrecked on a desert island" is not one of the conditions that allows you to do that. 

Typically if the player gets a powerful piece of equipment for free then the character can expect that it may be lost.  I just watched the original Clash of the Titans. Perseus was given a magical helmet - which he lost in a swamp. And his shield was destroyed by Medusa’s blood. So I’d say he didn’t pay for those items.

It depends on how it used and who has ultimate control, the player or the GM. 
A wonderful sword that cuts like a lightsaber.....the player.
A wonderful sword that cuts like a lightsaber AND eats part of the welders soul for every kill....the GM.
Its all about whether the item is intended by the GM to be just another pice of equipment (all be it a really good piece) or as a plot device.
  Basically forget the Greeks, “Beware GM’s bearing gifts.”  Or the modern version “Here kid, the first hit’s free.”

It is a limitation, NOT AN ADVANTAGE. Just because there are 'advantages' doesn't make it an advantage rules wise. I say the way you explain it, -1/4 limitation. But I personally would value it at -1 because it will only cut the extremely evil. As in physical embodiments of Demons and those who sell their souls to them.
 
I know what your saying, but there is the thing that it can't be used at will. Sure, you can swing the sword any time, but it only damages evil.
 
If you want to be disarmed but your opponent can't use the power, then it is an Obvious Assesable Focus which is Personal. If the only way to remove the sword is to knock the character out, then it is an Obvious Inasessable Focus which is Personal. 
 
But why can't it be an advantage, you ask. Because limiting the target of an attack power is Always A Limitation. Now I know "a limitation which doesn't limit is not a limitation". That doesn't mean it becomes an advantage. If you don't want the sword to be taken away or disarmed, you simply do not buy it with the Focus limitation. It doesn't become an advantage all the sudden. That is by the Rules As Written. 
 
Forgive me for rambling. 

I couldn't tell you who first coined the term, but I believe that is one of a handful of plot-twisting devices that fall under the general title "dick move."
 

 

There are stats for these things in various books.  How powerful or weak they are kind of depends on which book you're referencing.
 
As far as guns go, here's the rule of thumb I tend to follow:
 
Little concealable snub-nosed revolvers tend to do about 1D6 killing.
A normal sized pistol is probably 1 1/2 D6 killing.
A big-ass hand cannon like a .44 Magnum or a .50 Desert Eagle is probably 2D6 or 2D6+1 killing.
Shotguns or rifles are probably 2D6 to 2 1/2 D6 killing.
A military-grade sniper rifle (.50 cal Barrett) is clocking in around 3D6 killing.
The Cobra Assault Cannon from Robocop is about 4D6 killing.  You can blow up cars with it.
 
The average thug, goon, or henchman probably has a 4 or 5 OCV and a 3 Speed.  Unarmed they probably hit for 3 or 4D6 normal damage, and they frequenlty carry brass knuckles (2D6), lead pipes (3D6), or baseball bats (4D6) to boost their damage.  They're good enough to reliably beat the hell out of normal people.  They probably have 5 to 8 Defense and 25 Stun or so.

There are stats for these things in various books.  How powerful or weak they are kind of depends on which book you're referencing.
 
As far as guns go, here's the rule of thumb I tend to follow:
 
Little concealable snub-nosed revolvers tend to do about 1D6 killing.
A normal sized pistol is probably 1 1/2 D6 killing.
A big-ass hand cannon like a .44 Magnum or a .50 Desert Eagle is probably 2D6 or 2D6+1 killing.
Shotguns or rifles are probably 2D6 to 2 1/2 D6 killing.
A military-grade sniper rifle (.50 cal Barrett) is clocking in around 3D6 killing.
The Cobra Assault Cannon from Robocop is about 4D6 killing.  You can blow up cars with it.
 
The average thug, goon, or henchman probably has a 4 or 5 OCV and a 3 Speed.  Unarmed they probably hit for 3 or 4D6 normal damage, and they frequenlty carry brass knuckles (2D6), lead pipes (3D6), or baseball bats (4D6) to boost their damage.  They're good enough to reliably beat the hell out of normal people.  They probably have 5 to 8 Defense and 25 Stun or so.

Of course it's a limitation.  Don't be ridiculous.
 
Bob the Paladin with his Holy Sword is walking through the dungeon.  Out of the darkness, a creature attacks him.  Is it evil?  If it's not, he's going to be wasting his attacks.  Do you want to be involved in a life or death combat, and you don't even know if your weapon will affect your opponent?  You aren't going to know until you spend actions swinging on him.  And depending on the special effect of your sword, you might not even get immediate feedback that your sword isn't affecting it.  If it just bounces off the creature's armored hide, did it do so because it's not evil, or because you just didn't do enough damage?  You could easily spend a full turn getting the crap beaten out of you before you figure out that your sword can't hurt the creature.
 
Again, you guys are imagining some scenario where the player runs around stabbing random people to determine if they're evil or not.  And you're using that (what would basically be a 1 point power, as I demonstrated) to justify calling it an advantage.  "Oh, but the player could swing his sword around inside an elevator without worrying about hurting his friends..."  Pfft.  Like that'll happen.
 
This is at least a -1 limitation.

I see a few common threads emerging which I concur with, and steriaca touches on most of them here.
 
By default, the attack works on anyone the character targets and hits.  He can already choose not to attack some targets.  He is limiting viable targets, and that means there is a limitation.  Now we need to value it.
 
The question is how often he will target, or will wish he could target, someone or something that the KA will not work on,  That depends on exactly who it will, and will not, work on, which the player needs to detail.  Object, automatons, animals, entities that believe they are doing good/evil ("this is necessary for my people to survive"), entities that believe they are doing evil ("even if it meant I would starve, I should never have eaten an animal - truly I am irredeemably Evil").  It requires defining exactly what is, and is not, "evil" for this purpose.
 
Next, the GM has to assess how common that "evil" will be in his game.  That may be active ("I have ten years of games planned out, so based on that, your limitation is worth -1/2") or passive ("he took a -1 limitation, so I need to work in a lot of situations where there is a target he'd like to use the sword on, but it won't work").
 
In the course of this, we need to talk to the player - how do you envision this working?  How will your character use the sword?  Don't speculate - ASK the player.  "You don't plan on just randomly stabbing people to figure out who is evil, I hope."  If he does, maybe we need a discussion on campaign tone more than we need a discussion over differentiating a -1/4 and a -2 limitation.
 
Overall, the GM and the player need to get on the same page and understand the vision of this ability FIRST.  Then we can scope out how it interacts with the specific campaign SECOND.  Mechanical design is the THIRD step.
 
Many players, and even Hero posters, are used to games that will have "Weapon Property:  Only Works on Evil Things" already priced out on a list of other abilities.  In those games, the game designer has already set a campaign structure, so he knows how common "evil" will be.  The writeup of the property will (if done well) explain who it will, and will not, damage, and may even discuss the ramifications of random stabbings to determine alignment.  The game designer already has HIS vision for how this will work, so he will design the mechanics around that, and that is what you get. 
 
You wanted a different vision?
 
Welcome to Hero, my friend, where you get to design YOUR vision.  But that means you have to go through all of those steps above, because in Hero, YOU - the player and the GM - are the game designer.  Hero just gives you the tools to build your design, and realize your vision.