Duke Bushido

Supermage Bestiary has a few auapecta amongst the various elemental, but nothing we havent seen in the examples cited thus far. However, I would call your attention specifically to the Mud Elemental on p33, which has a special effect we havent seen yet: Armor defined as "attacks just sink in." You can see it in your mind's eye, I am sure. I liked it a lot, and have used it as an sfx for Desolid, but I never considered it as am actual defense (just "damage avoidance," so to speak). It reminds of a scene in Fist of the North Star (Oh God, no! Not the live action one!) Where one of the heroes attacks a gigantic guard with an enormous belly, and his hand gets stuck inside the fat, where he remains helpless while the guard delivers a mighty blow to his head. Super-pliable guy could have a similar "damage shield: Entangle," I think. Haven't run across that, at least not up through 4e (miggt be in the 5w Metamorph book, though; I have yet to read it). Oh, and on p36.you will find an actual Plastic Elemental, which seems pretty handy. Several of the Ooze's tricks, and again, some interesting new SFX.

My kids have just discovered the millions of "maybe the real treasure is the friends we made along the way" memes. I have been inundated with the things the past few days. Then I had an epiphany! Armageddon will have nothing to do with angels and demons, nor Jesus and Satan, nor Allah nor any other religion. Armageddon will occur because this is how they try to end One Piece....

Well said!

Okay, I am almost done with everything for Champions 4e. Going through the actual books and HERO Plus e-books (alphabetically; only three or four books left- just finished Shadows of the City. That leaves a couple of books and a couple of gamer magizne articles before hitting up the Adveturers Club magazines. I save2s those for last because not wberythinf in them,was exclusively super-HERO stuff. Thought I moght be able to segue into doing Fantasy HERO up through 4e that way. So far... Well, there isnt exactly _nothing_ (which you can see, if you are still following along), but there certainly isn't much. Even the San Angelo books had nothing to offer, even though they, too, seem to have suffered from the ludicrous notion of "well, you just _have_ to have a fish guy" yet no objectively-much-cooler super-pliable character.... In spite of hanging out for decades and periodically dabbling in my old age,I dont think I will ever really understand comic book fans or what makes Aquaman cool....

This is the level of fandom that makes me generally avoid any Tolkien-centric gathering of humans.

You are both correct, but Noose has only 5" of stretching, amd apparently,just her arms (the better to choke you with, My Dear...). Anyway, @Ninja-Bear, two more I found in 4e (forgive how long this ia taking; there is a _lot_ of 1e through 4e material to read through, even just for Champions. The possibility of shapeshifters in Fantasy means that for completeness, I will probably have to re-read through that, too.) Anyway: Kingdom of Champions (do you know just how hard it is to see "gaol" and not have a hyper-rabid Brazilian sports caster scream "GOOOOOAAAAAALLLLLLL!!!!!" inside your skull? Now imagine the book you are reading _insisted_ on this as part of its flavor.... ) Anyway, 4e, Kingdom of Champions p155: Nightmask. Minor shapeshifter (I know: not what you are looking for, but bear with me) who can look like anyone. Yes; that is done regularly with shapeshifter. However, he was when it clicked that all "chameleon" shapeshifters accomplish this with Disguise- not as a skill, but as a power. If it wasn't for Dark Champions (You know: no super Powers, but _dannn_, look at the voodoo that actually works!) We find Disguise used,as a power more than as an actual skill. This is really a 'nothing' in the scheme of what you are looking for, but I feel vindicated for proposing this no matter hiw many times it gwts ahot down. you know: sharp minds think alike; soft minds run together- I'm pretty happy either way. Anyway, je is immediately followed by Wolfbairn, who Multiforms between two specific shapes and precedes by Hag, who.... Wow. Somebody really overthought this.... Or rather, really deeply discounted it by literally _stacking_ frameworks... Anyway: She starts the way I have always donw shapeshifters that actually become other things: a laundry list of powers with a variant of OIHID: "Only in Appropriate Form," amd claims a -1/2 for this limitation. That doesn't seem "cost effective" enough, so there is an empty Multipower rack in there which also takes a limitation "all slots require an appropriate animal form," into which these various powers can be placed. Fortunately, the author took the liberty of pricing these powers in such a way that, when placed into the empty Multipower, they pick up a few extra dice or inches or other effect because- well, the points are spent, and at this price level, that means I get more. That still comes out seriously expensive, especially if I want a lot of skills amd magic stuff, so why don't I place this multipower laundry list of skills, powers, and abilities into a Multiform, and cut 80 percent of the cost right off? At any rate, while it may be "book legal," so was PlanetMan. If this character sheet landed on my table, it would be ceremoniously introduced to the Zippo of Shame Hiding almost as fast as the Harbinger of Bullets, but that really isnt a reflection on anything but personal standards, I suppose. Dr. Samaine is on p 159, but he is just a chameleon-type shapeshifter, and not truly pliable. For that, we skip ahead to The Mutant File and on p84 we find Flex, who comes off as a low-powered Plastic Man type. Honestly, take his base and sprinkle in a couple of select abilities from The Ooze, and I believe you could build a terrifyingly-effective villain able to stand toe to toe with an entire team of 4e supers. Gonna run; still tons of reading to do.

Actually, there were two from,tonight's session. In the brief battle,just before the moment above, when Red Cloak summoned his Spectral Guardian (SFX for Force Field; this spirt,movws to impose,himself,and,his shield,between,RC and,incomming attacks. He is also the SFX of Missile Deflection (only useable when Spectral Guardian is active), as we are going,through the combat, me,detailing the precision and periodically,acrobatic maneuvers of the ghostly warrior, right down to him spinning around Red Cloak just in time to protect him from a blow to the back of the head yet still managing, as a gunshot rang out, to thrust his sword from,behind Red Cloak and,over his shoulder, spearing the buller with the tip of his ethereal blade and flicking it harmlessly away-- "Holy crap! This guy is amazing! But Mr. Duke, how the heck did this guy get killed?! He's awesome!" "Cancer. He was a smoker."

Rhw youth group game had another session after a "it is too srinking cols to ait our here at a picnic table!" hiatus. A couple of rhe toughest players,have forgotten a couple of the basics, so as a quick refresher, Red Cloak and Feral j(who have the most complicated builds od the group) ust happen to have been ambushed while doing some,after-hours research at the library archives undner the museum. "...and the last of the villainous agents drop, victim of your sleep spell. That was an attack action, C, so we have to end Red Cloak's Phase without any movement." "It's cool. I look for the leader- the super-powered guy. I want to bind him up with my restraining spell until Feral gets back to help me move him." "You will need to re-allocate your points in your Multipower; remember?" "Oh yeah! Okay, I guess I can turn off the Flight; it can't really use it in here, anyway-" "Still, being in the air did reduce the amount of damage you sufferered when that sexons goon ahot you the teaser,he took from the guard..." "Yeah, but these guys are out cold now. Oh, I guess I should turn off my force field, too-" "Remember parr of the dun is sticking to the themes of your character and his world." "Hunh?" "Do you have a force field, or do you-" "Oh, right! I make the handsign at the warrior spirit protecting me, and thank him, and tell him he is dismissed." "His ghostly form turns to you,standing tall and proud, bashes his sword against his shield, holds his sword up in front of his face in salute, bows, and disappears." "That would be _so cool_ if it was real-" "In the game, it is real; enjoy it. If you change your mind, you make it something else." "Nah. I think a pet warrior ghost is pretty cool." "Sure, but he isnt a pet. You summon him,to protect you; there is a contract to fulfill." "Right, but we have a job, too. I need to get information from the metal guy." "You look around the room, and even with the rows of library stacks and the computer equipment, it seems kind of empty with the sounds of battle absent, seven thugs lie strewn around the forefront of the room, victims to poor judgement and your ancient magic--." "Yeah, I don't think these guys are gonna be making any more rabbit-out-of-a-hat jokes again!" "-but none of these faces are familar you." "What do you mean?" "You don't see Big Iron, the street name,for the thug that can turn into metal." "Ah, Man! He got away-! I guess I better go see if Feral is back yet-" "You turn to leave the room and almost bump your face into a statue. No, wait; statues don't move-" "Move?" "You glance up just in time to see the ceooked and cruel wry grin of Big Iron, his fist drawing back over his head, muscles tight,as bow strings. "Suprise, Houdini!" he snarls-" "Ah, crap! Okay, so how do I Push my PD...?"

Okay, tonight's finds include,one from that famously tone deaf publication, 4e's European Enemies. Page 54. Doppelganger might be what you are looking for, Sir. Moving on to High Tech Enemies, p 85 check out Goop. Honestly,it looks like a re-issue of the power set given to the Ooze, but hey- it is an example, nonetheless.

I get it, but unless the players are to create characters who are this afflicted, it seems like a lot of unnecessary detail for a background thing- all the build specificity, I mean. If the players are meant to play such characters,it seems to take a lot of "play" away from them. Perhaps a bit more detail on how these folks fit into the world and the game within it.... ?

@Ninja-Bear: Not finished with everything 4e, but thus far the rwcommendation for A-Man seems to be the beat bet, but also look at Ooze in Creatures of the Night (4e). Not done by a long shot (going through them alphabetically; "Creature of the Might" is a long way from "Zodiac Conspiracy"),but as I havent read through most od it on twenty years or so, this flimsy excuse to refresh myself came along at a reasonably time, I think... Keep you posted on any other finds.

Seconded. Forty years of rhis game, and I havent found amything more consistently accurate.

I accept your breathing example as being without consxious thought, but you are talking to a guy who has learn to walk twice, Amigo. It's much trickier in your late thirties, you know!

Nice! You are quite correct. It was our friend,Hugh Nielson who sent me on a googke quest to learn what Spellsinger was, and take some,puff out of my chest on having done so. Sure; no argument there. But when you buy "turn infidel into a meet" (or select it from a chart or whatever), you want more-or-less that very thing to happen every time, right? (Barring "saving throws" and what not, of course.) You might be happy of it turned them into a salamander every now and again, or you might accept it if now and again you had to cast it twice for the full effect, or even if there qas a one percent chance it killed them outright, so long as it would reliably and typically do what it is supposed to do. You picked it because you knew the outcome,of using it and had an idea of how consistent that outcome was. If it did just any random,thing, or if it only worked one percent of the time, you'd likely be less happy with it, right? At least when you consider that for the same (and possibly less) investment, you could have gotten a crossbow that did what it was supposed to almost every time. Not only,do I agree, but most of my,magic (when I can be pushed into eunning a fantasy game) incorporates that very thing to simulate the delicate, difficult complexity of harnessing magic in a way that is useful to you. On Chris Goodwin's HERO board, some time back, I went through an old campaign grimoire (I like to let players design their spells. If I approve of them, I record them in a notebook both to keep track of what is what and for other players to look through when they are ready to l learn a new spell: spell, build, SFX, character who created it, etc.) Anyway, I went through a particulalry old one before tossing it out and posted a list of controls. Looking through the modifiers on the builds will demonstrate what I just said: I like complexity in my magic. Partly it for its own sake- so that characters wiahing to pursue magic understand that they will work as hard- or perhaps harder- than the sword-slinging barbarian to practice their craft, and,because some things should necessarily be paced a certain way in a certain kind of game (the expression "spamming fireballs" comes to mind as something I frown upon, at least nit until a certain power level is achieved, but mostly to enforce a bit of roleplaying of the preparation or complex rituals required to make the magic do what you want it to do. 👍 Precisely (though I have no idea about the Vancian magic; I will take,your word for it, given my relatively poor fantasy knowledge base).

Well, a quick Google show me that I am not as inventive as I think I am. 😕 (and I will get back to you, Doc, but I am short on time at the moment). see, just a few years ago, when Hammerhead was still pumped from being admitted into the band, and as learning the rudiments of DnD, I ran a short campaign in which music- I thought rather originally- was the method of summing and controlling magic, with particularly adept soloists and large military war-chestras doing battle and supporting more traditional troops. It was a short campaign ( by design), but the band kids _loved_ it, and I was particularly proud of my creativity. truth be told, I was inspired by the tagline of a completely forgettable 90s arcade shooter: typical "use this plastic gun to take out wave after wave of bad guys" fare, with the gimmick being your gun fired razor-sharp compact disks instead of bullets. But the tagline stayed with me (mostly because of how wrong it was in light of the game): "music is the weapon" (when, in fact, supersonic plastic-and-aluminum razor blades were the weapon). anyway, thanks for ruining that personal high, Old Man. "Nothing new under the sun," I suppose.

Agreed. However, it also needs to be reasonably consistent and more-or-less reliable to be useful for players-- or at least for other players to risk allocating resources on even a periodic basis. In DnD, why would I waste a spell slot on something that, when cast, does whatever the heck it wants without regard to what I need? A spell from which any utility is unlikely and coincidental. In HERO or GURPS terms, why would I spend points on magic with unknowable results when I can buy a club and a crossbow that do more or less the same thing every time? Mysterious magic is a risk: it is an expense with zero verifiable benefits. In HERO fandom terms "I cannot be assured that I will get what I paid for." You might frequently find yourself _not_ getring what you pay for, but I suppose this can be rectified by making such magic free in points systems and require zero spell slots in others. Thus, when they bite you in the backside, it cost you nothing and you had the option to use something reliable that you acquired normally. But moving beyond another rehash of something whose key points game-wise I _think_ we more-or-less understand each other on I have need of clarification on one of your points of contention: I do not see the similarities. I certainly do not see how making magic measurable and semi-dependable makes it technology. Realistically, I don't see how it can exist in a non-measurable, non-quantifiable state. Even before its discovery, mathematics comfirmed the existence of either a Higgs bosun, or something very much like it. So I want to take a look at the similarities- or potential similarities, since one of these things does not actually exist- between the two. Technology is learnable and teachable. I have never encountered any genre source of magic that was not the same, though typically magic has score and score of restrictions on who can learn it, to include teachers who, out of genre convention if nothing else, are incredibly rare and usuallly unwilling. Both _can_ be studied; both can, to varying degrees, be classified by results. That is, they can both be used for construction, destruction, support, etc. If you accept the existence of grimoires or teachers or magic items, then both can be mass produced. There are restrictions on who can learn to do what, and some people take to it better than others. I would tentatively put forward the idea that, in fiction, whether or not the reader is aware of it, that magic has always been this way, simply because anyone wielding must have some way to figure out at least rudimentary control of it, and at a minimum, how to turn it on. How to turn it off might be useful, but I suppose that isn't entitely necessary if you have no plans for "...and after _that_-"... Keeping secrets from the reader isn't terribly hard. Murder mysteries absolutely rely on it. There is nothing about the reader's ignorance that must translate into ignorant characters, though. _Somehow_, the control the magic. _Somehow_, they get results that line up with their goals. _Somehow_, they can assemble the components or lay out the circles or prepare the sacrifice or know the proper position of the moon and the incantations and just how many fairie farts are required-- They have learned the results and how to get them. They may not be entirely accurate (looking at you, Nazi who who looked into the Ark of the Covenant and then went all claymation-under-a-buffet-heat-lamp), but they have a solid enough idea of everything that they have learned what to do before they did it. It is extremely difficult to teach something that isnt quantifiable. It is extremely difficult to learn something that isnt quantified with at least partial accuracy. My favorite example of this is actually kind of useless amongst the general public, simply because it requires an intimate knowledge that the general public does not possess: Teaching and learning motorcycle riding. Most people have no idea that the _vast_ majority of motorcycle riders in North America do not actually know how to ride a motorcycle. They know how to _operate_ one. They know how to work the controls, how to to start it and get where they want to go, but when a truly bad thing comes along, they will make the worst decisions because they actually have no idea how the motorcycle works. Why? They were taught by people who really didn't know, either. You cannot teach something you do not know. As You go through your life, as you encounter a bike at the gas pumps, as the operator how the motorcycle steers and how do you make it turn. Pay special heed to the number of different answers you get. Ask why this works. Again, note the number of differenr answers you get. There is only _one_ correct answer, and one correct reason, and anyone who doesnt know what they are is foinf to be doing a whole lot of the wrong thing in a situation that calls for flawless action in order to make it through. Yet these people still operate motorcycles and do not die. Why? Well, for one, they haven't ever been in a flawless-or-die situation. Moat importantly, they have stumbled upon the correct thing to do _in general_ even though they are unaware of it. They learned something, on some level, even if it isn't in the conscious decision making part of their brain. Sure, that is a technological example, but as magic is entirely fictional, I cannot really offer a graspable real-world example of controlling magic. Except through Clarke's Law. I think it is safe to assume that most people here can operate a car. That most people here can operate an elevator. That most people here can ride a ship to sea. How many of those people,understand how they work? I do not mean,how many people can google it up; I mean how many of those people understand each and every principle at work at every moment from the tiniest flow of electrons to the starter solenoid (or relay, in some cases) to the balancing of tidal forces to the shaping of an,explosion to the tempering and cooling of different metals to the scavenging effect that _pulls_ exhaust from the engine to the venture effect and,why it shapes gasoline into a perfect droplet and why this is critical and so on and so forth? I dont profess to be a great wizard with a terrible burden of knowledge. There are _lots_ of us. But I am,willing to bet that even here, that group is a smaller set than the group who can operate a car. I am also willing to bet that if we looked into that group for people who could diagnose a problem in the automobile- from crank,bearings to a missing counterweight on a propshaft, that number gets smaller still. Then going,into,that group we look foe those who understand what repairs must be made, then to those who know how to do the repairs, then to those who are actually,capable of doing the repairs... And,at some,point from the group of people who have seen but never been,inside of a car, we cross into magic. At some point, that same thing that a group of us take for granted as we sit on the side of an Arizona state highway with the starter of an old KZ 400 pulled apart and scattered on the jacket we threw down to keep the parts out of the sand, as we work patiently with a pocket knife cutting strips from a discarded Pabst can in the hopes of wrapping enough layers around the rear of the armature shaft to properly center the shaft in the over-worn bronze bushing in the DE Frame so that it would properly contact all four of the worn-too-short brushes, so that maybe we can get out of the sun... As we dip a strip of cloth cut from a spare pair of socks into the crank case to draw,up enough oil to hopefully keep out aluminum-lined bushing from galling the second we hit the start button...,as we cuss ourselves for,the hundredth time for not going ahead and installing new roll pins,in the kickstarter before heading to California.... At some point,between those two people, we have crossed into magic. Ritualistic magic using materials gathered from the countryside and the blood of the dead beast, its organs,revitalized and life restored (for,what it's worth, I replaced both the bushings and the entire brush rack in the starter as well as the roll pins in the kick stick at the very first bike shop I found in California). At some point, what I looked at as "sunburn as punishment for my own impatience" was intricate and puzzling magic for the lizard resting in the shadow of the bike and the one roadrunner that briefly paused on the grassless sand ridge and studied me, first with one eye, then the other, before trotting off to wherever he was headed. It took me a lifetime od helping my father do things I did not want to do, and then helping other people do things I did not want to do, but did because they couldn't, and they needed help- to develop the knowledge and skills that revived the bike that afternoon (I also learned that if there is noone else on the road, leave the bike running while you pee; it isnt _that_ much gas!) I wasn't quite thirty then. I have lived more than that liferime,over again, and the things I know and am capable of now would aabsolutely impress that younger, more muscular, head-full-of-hair version of me, so far are they beyind his own abilities. But it is safe to say that magical or not, he _can_ learn them. Some,through trial and,error, some,through education, some,through repetition and,study, and all of them one little bit at a time. I poatulate that, whether or not it is secret,from,the reader, rhe characters in a book,must have learned their magic controlling abikities similarly, else how could they have them? Even beinf "born with the power to summon magic and bend,it to his will" is insufficient: at some point, he has to digure out what makes,it appear, and what he must do or think,or want to make,it work. In this way, like,it or not, it has _always_ been like technology. I suppose. Some people are less likely to want to notice that than others, I guess. The difference- the primary, fundamental,difference, in my own opinion, is that infinite or finite, fragile or vast from,time itself, anyone can be trained to _make_ technology, eventually, but magic comes,from somewhere else. No matter what we learn,about controlling it or summoning it or supressing it, we may never know where it comes,from, or why it exists, and we will never, ever be able to duplicate or create the magic itself. I can speak only for me, but for,me. That is different enough, and wondrous enough, and also why I really,don't like it. I've been at this for a couple of hours now; I will stress,a couple,od other points at some,later time, if I remeber to,do so. Later, Amigo!

"Really? Nobody needs five of the same d@nnn#d motorcycle!" "Boy, explain this to your momma." "Well, you see, Mom, it's like this: We don't have a a _blue_ one...." Thanks, Boy. Real helpful.

The world has seen exactly two "abnormally talented" individuals in the past, but not quite super-human. They have been gone (killed in wartime) for a couple of generations at this point, and really only exist as historical clues for the characters to either discover or miss as they see fit. I have only run this past two players thus far, as it is in-progress. Both seem interested. We will be doing "tiered" power structures, which is to say that there will be three options for how many starting points /disads you want (we play 2e: Disadplications bite hard because to get higher points, you take more of them. The setting lore for the three levels (again, to be discovered by players) is essentially: one abducted ancestor is level1. Level 1 is primarily increased characteristics, though a minor power may occur. One abductee ancestor _on each side_ (ie, one in the lineage or each parent) is level 2. This is primarily powers, but no characterisitcs will exceed maxims. One actual "talented" individual as a parent (it is possible to have a power or trait and never actually know it: very few modern people ever have to _really push_ their strength, or run from certain death, etc) and one adbductee or talented person in the lineage from the other parent yields level 3, which is traditional "super hero" mix of both powers and characteristics. Powers (and certain characteristics may; havent decided yet) have some sort of "control roll;" this will weigh heavier on level 3 characters, obviously. This is an enforced power limitation that can be bought off with experience, etc. as can any other such limitations. The characters will, in the initial session, be being "helped" individulally by various organizations, as they have found themselves with these abilities and very poor control. I have not decided on the organizations, though clearly, with perhaps one exception, the goal is to control the character and to to recreate the abilities. I am leaning heavily- if I have enough players commit- to having _one_ organization genuinely interested in helping the character because he needs help, and then of course, the things to learn are too good to pass up. Level three, having the most disadplications already, will have hanging over them that a small amount of their character points will not be spent by them, but by me, at inopportune times (I am thinking 10 to fifteen points for a 300 pt character, but I will get that sussed out as I go). During the game, EP will be rewarded more-or-less "by the book," meaning that characters of higher starter power level will likely earn experience a bit slower-- that whole "more powerful / less powerful" thing. I am okay with this, as it gives tier 1 and tier 2 characters a bit of lead to 'catch up,' so to speak. Again, I am not entirely sure how it will shake out in the final form, but that is the preliminary. I am thinking of mandatory Hunters- the "helpful organizations" from which they have escaped (save the altruistic one, if I decide do include it. The idea is that, should the players not figure it out within... Say, four sessions or so- then rhe altruistic organization dumps the character they are helping, having seen a pattern of talented people popping up and "disappearing." (I may throw in a government angle, but I am always leery of such a thing: realistically, PCs do not have a snowball's chance against a national government determined to capture and hold them or otherwise "solve" the problem). So if the PCs havent figured it out, the one group will info dump somethinf to the effect of "you have to go! You can't stay here! It is too dangerous for _all_ of us! You were never here; you don't know us; we don't know you, but listen: you are not alone! There are other like you! There are othera like you, amd we have reason to bekieve that you are _all_ in danger. Find them. Find the others; you are stronger together! Stay hidden, but stay together!" Or something like that. As a sort of "proof of the pudding (and to add a layer of mystery), when they do meet up and befin to work together, I am thinking of just dumping five character points onto them each time they pick up a new someone as part of their team. Then there will be a three or four sessions of "on the run" (and the altruistic organization will be a closed door to them at this point; they won't find a trace of it anywhere) and from their, I would like to work in a couple of complete arcs of actual superhero / secret identity / colorful costumes stuff, with honest to goodness super villains (whose powers have the same source, of course). I _may_ let one or two of the villains have ties to one or more od the organizations the PCs were being "helped" by (and probably will, if the players want to chase those threads). Hopefully at least _one_ of the characters will have discussed "my nutty grandmother who is in an,institution because she believes she was abducted by aliens, which should trigger a cascade of "alien abduction? Wierd! Me, too!", as I intend to present framework histories (not complete backstories, but "interesting details about your life," (they should not suspect anything, as I have done rhis before- not regularly, but as a means to pushing them toward bexoming a cohesive team-- you all fought in the same war on the same,front-- that sort of thing, and just to keep them grounded, I have always thrown in an offbeat detail or two "just for fun.") And just about the time they are really adapting to this superhero thing-- remember they are the first od their kind; this world will not even have them as fiction, if I can work that in without giving away anything)- About the time they get used to it, there is an en masse attempt to take them down, durinf which time they will winnow down the strength of the secret agencies and perhaps even rhe military--- And the aliens will return. And that is where I am stumped. Why? Why are the aliens back? I would like do avoid the bulk of rhe tropes, obviously, but that leaves me nothing but "hey, we accidentally vreated auper beings, but son't worry! We would like to set that right," and frankly, I dont like that. I suspect the reason that the teopes have become tropes ("we are here to harvest our bioweapons;" "we need to run some more tests;" "why jave you not,taken over this world? You were programmed to do so!" etc have all become,tropes is because they work reasonably well as-is. Still, I would like do,come,up with something just a bit,off the beaten path, but still ominous to,crescendo,what I see as,a,three-year campaign.

I am actually preparing one now. All supers are the children or grandchildren of alien abductees. As there has been no "alien contact" as of yet, ....

Well thank you, Sir. The sentiment is mutual ; I assure you. Well, if the memes are to be believed, youhavw to write it down, and _then_ it is science, but as we are reading books.... Perhaps I should have said more, but I was trying to stay on-target for once. I have had the reverse experience! I remember hiw anniyed I was thr first time I walked into a book store and science fiction and fantasy were lumped into the same section! Personally, I blame Star Wars: hopping into a single-seater and hopping off across the galaxy without so much as gatorade jug in which to pee isn't the sort of life support that says "I will be out for a few hours," is it? Then we have actual wizards in space, doing magic thingies at each other... (Do not worry, Star Wars fans. I am not going to mention mitochondria-- I mean, midichlorians. I do not at all like Star Wars, but when that midichlorians thing came out-- well, let's just say that I felt your outrage and your shame. I wouldn't dream of throwing that at you, even if it was the _only_ reason I didn't like it) So yeah: that and John Carter; to a lesser extent, DC's Warlord (is that John Carter knock-off still going, or was that just a seventies thing?)- Massive overlap; I get it. Overlap, but not the same. Sure: from outside, the difference is as miniscule as dieselpunk and steampunk, but from _inside_, the difference is as massive as dieselpunk and steampunk! Or, you know... I could just call it a fandom thing. Whatever works for the reader who has givwn up on both of these and moved on to Teslapunk or Fashionpunk.... We _know_- or at least, out of defference to those who really do not want to see it for flavor reasons, let's say that the argument can be made that a game _must_ have a sort of science in its magic: Who can have magic, and why can they have it? How do they learn it? How do they improve it? Can they teach or share it with others? (Yes; I get that you will happily share a fireball with any gelatinous cube that happens along, but that is not where I was going...) What determines the strength or effectiveness of the magic? And so on and so forth. It is possible entirely to have a magic system with no explanation of what the source of magic is or where it comes from, but those questions and several others must be answered to make the magic useable in the game. And because there are observable steps and means of progression that characters must know in order to work toward that progression, the argument can be made that, at least in a game, there is actual recordable, repeatable, verifiable science and consistency (unless your effects roll is 2d1000, in which case, expect an average of 1000, but good luck getting consistency!) And we're back! Not That anyone would notice, but apparently it is entirely possible to just nod off for six hours mid-composition, realize you have to be at work in twenty minutes, etc, etc... At any rate, in a game environment, there are still ways to keep magic mysterious and awe-inspiring. After considerable distillation, they fall into four categories: 1) do not explain the source. No one knows where magic comes from or why it exists. This is pretty common in games, but by itself it doesnt really 'eliminate' a science-y, studyable, reproducability to the effects themselves. Variations on this include using, on HERO terms, "variable special effects" where the SFX of the moment are chosen by the GM. A 6dRKA may be a fireball with one use, and a baby Dragon the next, and a maelstrom of sand and gravel the next. However, it will _always_ be a 6dRKA, and the PC will always in ow how to cast it (Activation roll or/and Burnout can add some suspense or surprise there) and he will always know how to improve it. There is an inherent understanding- and science-able results- that just cannot be gotten around. 2) vary the results. One moment when a spell is cast, it results in a baby Dragon screaming down the corridor at mach 2 , eyes full of murder and jaws open wide. The next usage, it creates a bridge of light, swirling with all the colors of a rainbow. The third usage, everyone in the part loses fifteen pounds. The fourth usage, two randomly selected characters anywhere within a radius equal to line of sight are teleported onto the deck of a galleon far out at sea. I don't think I have to go too much into the problems involved here, and the strain on both the GM and his relationship with the players, but let's suffice it to say that there will be no magic users in your party, ever. No one wants any kind of equipment- shelter, weapon, or magical ability- that cannot be consistently relied upon. No; I take that back. If you are unfortunate enough to have "that one guy" who, in his own sort of way, derives some of his pleasure from being disruptive or compunding the party's troubles, he will likely want to play spellslingers almost exclusively. 😕 other than him, though, no one will want this because, as funny as it might be in less-tess scenarios, no one wants magic they cannot estimate- magic without a science-like reproduceable, consistent reliability. 3)The PCs can't have it. If the PCs cant have it, they can't really study it, learn about it, etc, etc. They will never understand it, so it will always be awe-inspiring. Now I know that I am in the significant minority here, but I have always been okay with this kind of magic in-game. Only some special class of people or certain individuals or perhaps it takes a whole coven, acting in concert, to wield magic, and whatever that qualifier might be, it is completely off the table for PCs. While it is an extreme example, think "Conan." He regularly encounters incredible magic, but (so far as I know) has never been able to wield it himself. The gaming problem here is that, as I said, I am in the minority as a player who is perfectly fine with this. Most players that I have encountered are like Old Man (who has confessed to prefering magic users with amazing abilities) or even worse: I want to be a godlike figure among men. Okay, how about when I get to third level....? 4) magic blows everything else out of the water. This creates your awe-inspiring, cannot-really-comprehend, magic-is-the-shiz-nit sense of wonder. Entire mountain ranges have been destroyed and others created purely as collateral effects of duel magics. Villages thrive in the desert because a kindly but reclusive wizard brought forth a river in an ocean of sand and sun-scarred stone. A scryong spell gains access to the innermost thoughts of an enemy across the sea, and his ships can be sunk a thousand miles away with but a malicious thiught and a whispered word. Or, to put it more colloquially, "my character is a badass wizard." Variants on this include clerical blessings and "letting god do the dirty work." Hopefully, I don't have to go too far into this one to point out the game balance issues. I mean, I think we all all remember every edition of DnD where the only defense against a spell slinger was to kill them off before they got past 4th level. What works in books- unknowable, capricious, fickle, awe-inspiring, powerful-beyond-comprehension magic-- just doesn't work well in a game (unless you have tables full of guys like me: "that's fine; I didn't want it anyway"). Of it is accessible at all, there _must_ be either a way to measure, summon, wield, and improve it, or take the results totally out of the Player's control (which is going to result in a lot of "didn't want it anyway"). In other words, there _must_ be a science to it. It may not be fully explained (we sont know where it comes from or why it works), but it must be,understandable in game terms, which ultimately results in it beinf understood in-game, at least to a point. Science! That is well and good. See number 2, itemized above, because that is the only gameable method by which this may be achieved. Unfortunately, it is not a lot of fun. At least, not for long. Except for that one guy... And now we can get into why it doesn't _really_ work in fiction, either, but not today. I have been pecking at this phone long enough. Let'a just summarize with "someone learned how to do it: how to summon it; how to control it; how to get the effects he wants- possibly even how to teach it. So it might be mysterious and unknowable to the reader, but the character is reading spell books to learn from other people who not only learned to do it, but how to break it down in such a way as to both reproduce it and record it, and possibly teach it. Or maybe he is the first guy to come up with this spell, and he is writing it down to either teach it, re-learn it at a future point, oraybe play with variations at some point in the future. Or maybe.... "Once we have the Moon Stone, Princess... Once we have the Moon Stone, and the stars are aligned, then the world will bow before you...." Sounds like someone understands this stuff _way_ more than the author wants you to think is possible. (Personally, I have always thought that it is either because the author isnt good at "it just is," or because he is counting on your willingness not to notice that there seems to be some science-like methodology at work here, or because he has figured out that "it just is" is crap for,building tension when whatever it just is also happens to consistently benefit the wielder. But note that the disclaimer "Personally" indicates a poorly (ie, not even remotely)-researched opinion babsed on absolutely nothing beyond all-too-fallible human intuition. And why are there only two intuitions? Women's intuition and human intuition. Why do women (typically also human) get to double-dip? Why do men have to share? Anyway, there is a lot more there supporting the idea that wondrous, unexplainable, unscience-able magic doesnt _really_ exist in fiction, either, but that really is a different discussion, and best sone by someone more versed in the genre than I am. So, moving on.... Yes! Even though I do not particularly care for magic (at least, not still-extant, non-deity-derived magic, though I am oddly okay with certain types of "nature magic"), I absolutely _love_ some of the superstitions and even religions that can be found in many works of fantasy. No complaints there! See, I sont even mind the plague demon thing, if that is actually how disease works, or if it isn't, but it is the popular superstition. But I _do_ want to know which is which. It is probably quite opposite of your own take, but it helps me enjoy the story if I understand the story, or at least what it is actually story lore and setting, etc. Funny. I had no idea that I was dead. Or maybe I am not, and this just happens to work on a certain subset of the living, too. It doesnt have to be technology, but if a character in a story is using it, then either it _is_ predictable within certain acceptable tolerances, or the wielder is straight-up insane without any concern for what happens to any portion of the universe as a result of informing it, even if that change is slow painful immolation and that portion is confined entirely to him: You can predict this sword. Only one in ten times will a guy take it from,you and smack you with it. You can predict this gun. Only one in fifty of these have ever exploded in the user's face. You cannot predict this magic! It might create a tidal wave to destroy your enemies. It might create a great chasm that swallows your allies. It might so nothing but dree Prometheus and put you in his place. It might just kill you for the heck of it and do nothing. It might make your enemy king od the universe. Eh. I'm good with all of that. Let 'er rip! It might be worse. I said "let 'er rip!" So... Either reasonably predictable, or complete insanity. Nothing else,is really justifiable. Well, there _is_ a third thing, but it makes for both lousy gaming and lousy story telling: as we cannot ever know or understand magic, and it does exist (which is difficult to prove if it exists as some inmate-able, unscience-able force), then we exist entirely at its whim, and there is nothing we can do about it, which doesn't really do anything except turn "magic" into "corporate money" and we leave fantasy completely to retuen to our dystopian reality. It doesnt make good entertaibment because it is precisely what we are trying to entertain ourselves away from for a few hours. Agreed on all counts. I only add that it is difficult to tell _any_ story where magic truly is unknowable, unquantifiable, and still able to be wielded. See? I can totally,get into alchemical magic, though before anyone protests, I am already well-aware that all "alchemical magic" boils down to is a new set of eules dor chemistry, with a sometimes-ezisting restriction on who knows how to what, and without delving too deeply into the actual chemical makeup differences between "the femur of an ogre slain at midnight" and any other femur, inckydinf that of an ogre who died at two-ish on Wednesday, of old age. But alchemy givws us healing potions and potions of fireball and strange liquids that transmute lead to gold, if onky for a while, and for me, the new (and real-world wrong) rules for chemistry is enough to be "magic." If That is "Mage: the Ascension," I will defer to your knowledge. I kind if got White Wolf burnout in the 90s, about the time I was reading my twenty-somethingth Vampire book. I still havent been abke to make myself look back. 😕 I cannot attempt to answer for Chris (and given that it is two in the afternoon here (I mentioned I am at work, right? I am buildinf the post on my not-long-or-frequent-enough-for-having-to-deal-with-the-public breaks), he has probably already answered for himself, but I _can_ offer some insight that might help: He and I have remarkably similar preferences for magic- that is to say, that it is consistent enough to be manageable, even if I only certain special people can manage it at all. Outside of the subject, a lot of us have been here for years, and accordingly percieve an intimacy that may not be reciprocated, or perhaps simply isn't recognized. Thus, we might fire off less-formalized or less-complete thoughts when in a hurry or as a quick toss-out, expecting more comprehension or understanding of context than might actually happen. I have done it quite often, amd on one occasion inadvertently. Really torqued off someone I _thought- I was sharing a humourous reference with (still sorry about that, LL- sincerely sorry). I have worjed much harder to avoid that ever since (and you folks have endure _even longer_ posts because of it. I feel I have to point rhis out, bwcause I dont believe Chris is the sort od person to _start_ an argument; I expect it was some sort of shorthand summation of his opinion that he thiught would be better-received. I only offer this because it was Chris Goodwin- a relative stranger a couole of thousand mukes away from me- who told me "I live you, Man. Men don't express that enough. We as aren't allowes to. But it is okay to love your friends, and if you love people, you should let them know, because they might need to hear it once in a while." That lead to more tangential research on my part that forced me to realize that imthis is specifically a "white man" problem, as none of my non-white cowrkers or friends have the slightest problem with hugging each other or staying "love, you Dude." (This peobabky explains a lot more history than I want to think about, and this clearly isnt the place for that (though for what it is worth, since this discovery, Hammerhead has not gone a single day without hearing it from me). Anyway, for that reason and many others, if I ever think Chris is being anything but courteous, I always assume I missed somw important context. And now You know all that. I have got to find a way to work _sleep_ into my schedule more than every other night... Okay, I dont know what i did wrong, but I wiped what I was trying to quote. Still: thank you, LL. I have a feeling you get what I am trying to say. Magic should be amazing, but it needs to be reliable and xonaiatent as well.

(I hope that came across as courteously as I intended. I _like_ Doc D, and don't want anyine thinking I am being flippant here.)

Before getting started here, let's remember that I have _never_, not once, pretended to enjoy dramatic fantasy, and have always been pretty open that the reason is "I don't like magic." Yes; I have totally also always voiced the idea that "DnD magic feels more like the magic of most fantasy fiction than does any HERO System magic." However, the two are _not_ contradictory: fantasy magic typically has no rhyme or reason. DnD magic suits that well. Just as a quick recap: Always open about not liking fantasy. Always open about preferring that magic make sense and follow certain patterns, even if those patterns are completely arbitrary. Always open about not liking magic in general (though I will take magic over elves any day of the week, but I am pretty open about that, too). Extremely open that my first love, RPG-wise, will always be Classic Traveller, which is rumored to be quietly a-magical. When FRED landed and we were all discussing Steve'a merger of all the various genres into one continuum and our various opinions in it, I remember being the only one whose biggest complaint was "what is thia2 magic nonsense? Why do superheroes and science fiction and distant aliens have to be tied to some kind of "ebb and flow of magic in the universe"?! (Frankly, I _still_ find that offensive, but hey; since I don't use it, I can let it go). I remember being told that it wasnt a big deal and I remember being told it was a silly complaint in light of [insert next guy's personal opinion of the all-in-one timeline]. I have made no secret that in fantasy, I will almost always play a human, usually some sort of fighter (and always not a wizard), but as I can be periodically be talked into playing a dwarf i9r variant humanoid of non-magical origin, it is probably better to say "I don't play magical races," but it really,is a foregone conclusion after being completely open about prefering all-human parties. That actually bleeds into my sci-fi, too. I don't force it, mind you, but it is by far my preference. I could go on, but since I already have, let me just say in short that I am tripping over my jaw upon realizing that, even after all these years of complete openness about all of this, "Duke isn't really into magic" comes as a surprise to _anyone_, particulalry you, Doc. I don't really see how the two notions- "not liking magic" and "putting technology in with the magic" are connected. I mean, I have seen it, obviously, and in general I don't really care for it, probably because of the magic. However, as I have said, it is in dramatic settings that "magic is mysterious and does what it does (like gain exactly one die of effect each time I get that crazy 'does anyone else feel like they have leveled up?" sensation after taking down a band of forest brigands or some such) without rules or regulations, etc, etc. Outside of dramatic settings? Yeah; I am fine with it. It lends itself to anything that doesnt take itself seriously because without a sensibke framework behind it, it is sifficult for me to take it seriously. I make it a point every few years to reread DeChancie's Skyway trilogy (at least the first two books) as well as Turtledove's Case of the Toxic Spell Dump. Magic abounds in that book, and that book is _awesome_! Every game from every company has rules that regulate magic, in particular breaking it into dice and how to increase those dice and what counteracts, weakens, or increases those dice. It's pretty much a science already. I think it might be _explanation_ that you don't like, and my friend, I am cool with that. Play what _you_ like; read what _you_ like (though if you have any love for puns and nowadays-incredibly-dated-pop-culture-references, I highly encourage you to give Toxic Spell Dump a read). I don't play Glorantha for the same reason I dont play much of any fantasy: Magic doesn't trip my trigger as presented in most games and books and movies. HERO, by its nature, offers a "magic system" I _do_ like, probably because it is an honest-to-Pete _system_. Even then, given a choice between "game with magic" and "gake without," it's a pretty rare day for me to pick "with." I had a few sacred cows like that early on, when I was trying to figure out how to make HERO magic feel like "magical magic," until a friend pointed out that all observation is science. In this case, if you cast Fireball and you reliably get a fireball... Or your fireball gets more of X tied to definite triggers like charms, scrolls, or "levelling up," it is already a science; it lacks only explanation of where the fire comes from. Anyway, it is getting late, and I would like to go through a xoh2ole more 4e books before turning in. Good night, folks!

While you are not wrong, Doc-- magic should have a certain "it just is, without explanation" type nature to _feel_ like magic (and this has been a long-standing gripe for me with regards of making "magic" in the HERO System- it's essentially super Powers with time delay and maybe a little bloodletting- I actually (personally) prefer the HERO approach to magic because it is _magic_ that I have never found appealing in a dramatic setting. It is the reason I generally do not care for fantasy, even as reading material. Even as a kid, magicians and such had no appeal for me. 😕 when I include "magic" in my fantasy, I want it to follow structured principles, like any other science.

Not really sure why I prefer the not-magic guys. To be completely hinest with myself,I think it is because, in general, I dont like magic.

Thank you, @Grailknight for the explanation. I think Old Man was right; I believe that is a conversation I am going to stay out of. But Seriously: thank you.