Duke Bushido

So many strongly held opinions about magic!  Although that is pretty normal--in the fantasy fiction discussion groups I frequent, "hard" vs. "soft" magic systems are always a topic of lively discussion. Naturally that would carry over to RPGs.
 
My preferences tend to come down on the "soft" side of the spectrum, i.e. mysterious and poorly understood.  I find that more well defined systems, in fiction, are uninteresting--being fully understandable, they become esoteric.  In some cases this also leads to some strange inconsistencies with the setting.
 
As others have mentioned, mysterious-and-poorly-understood magic is tough to do in any RPG that attempts to be balanced.  Hero manages to at least sort of address the subject with skill rolls, Side Effects, and other disadvantages.  Other systems, like Ars Magica, address it by leaving a certain amount of wiggle room in the effect.  Or in the more lightweight systems, almost not having a system at all.
 
What really sets Hero apart is that its flexibility allows it to cover multiple magic systems.  You can have the wizards of the Fire College go up against the Wild Pool Magicians with the assistance of the Vancian Amnesiacs.  After four decades of fantasy gaming I have yet to see any other system that can really do this.  Usually the best they can do is have you pick spells from a different list.  But the point is that Hero can really do both hard and soft magic, and I'm frankly astonished that no other game system has really tried.
 
Clerical magic is a whole other ballgame, as it directly involves the theology of the setting.  It's hard to be an atheist when priests are slinging flame strikes and blade barriers.  At that point, religion becomes less a matter of faith and more one of devotion and adherence.  It's a weird side effect of D&D video game magic, and to me it smacks of football teams granting magic powers to its craziest fans.  I have toyed with the idea of requiring clerical spells (prayers?) to be bought with Invisible Power Effects, just to make it a teeny bit less obvious to onlookers that The Gods Walk Among Them.  That only works for certain effects, but it does maintain a lot of the mystery.  Arcane magic might benefit from the same.

The world has seen exactly two "abnormally talented" individuals in the past, but not quite super-human.  They have been gone (killed in wartime) for a couple of generations at this point, and really only exist as historical clues for the characters to either discover or miss as they see fit.
 
I have only run this past two players thus far, as it is in-progress.  Both seem interested.
 
We will be doing "tiered" power structures, which is to say that there will be three options for how many starting points /disads you want (we play 2e: Disadplications bite hard because to get higher points, you take more of them.
 
The setting lore for the three levels (again, to be discovered by players) is essentially: one abducted ancestor is level1.   Level 1 is primarily increased characteristics, though a minor power may occur.
 
One abductee ancestor _on each side_ (ie, one in the lineage or each parent) is level 2.  This is primarily powers, but no characterisitcs will  exceed maxims.
 
One actual "talented" individual as a parent (it is possible to have a power or trait and never actually know it: very few modern people ever have to _really push_ their strength, or run from certain death, etc) and one adbductee or talented person in the lineage from the other parent yields level 3, which is traditional "super hero" mix of both powers and characteristics.
 
Powers (and certain characteristics may; havent decided yet) have some sort of "control roll;" this will weigh heavier on level 3 characters, obviously.  This is an enforced power limitation that can be bought off with experience, etc. as can any other such limitations.
 
The characters will, in the initial session, be being "helped" individulally by various organizations, as they have found themselves with these abilities and very poor control.
 
I have not decided on the organizations, though clearly, with perhaps one exception, the goal is to control the  character and to to recreate the abilities.  I am leaning heavily- if I have enough players commit- to having _one_ organization genuinely interested in helping the character because he needs help, and then of course, the things to learn are too good to pass up.
 
Level three, having the most disadplications already, will have hanging over them that a small amount of their character points will not be spent by them, but by me, at inopportune times (I am thinking 10 to fifteen points for a 300 pt character, but I will get that sussed out as I go).
 
During the game, EP will be rewarded more-or-less "by the book," meaning that characters of higher starter power level will likely earn experience a bit slower-- that whole "more powerful / less powerful" thing.  I am okay with this, as it gives tier 1 and tier 2 characters a bit of lead to 'catch up,' so to speak.  
 
Again, I am not entirely sure how it will shake out in the final form, but that is the preliminary.  I am thinking of mandatory Hunters-  the "helpful organizations" from which they have escaped (save the altruistic one, if I decide do include it.  The idea is that, should the players not figure it out within... Say, four sessions or so-  then rhe altruistic organization dumps the character they are helping, having seen a pattern of talented people popping up and "disappearing."  (I may throw in a government angle, but I am always leery of such a thing: realistically, PCs do not have a snowball's chance against a national government determined to capture and hold them or otherwise "solve" the problem).  So if the PCs havent figured it out, the one group will info dump somethinf to the effect of "you have to go!  You can't stay here!  It is too dangerous for _all_ of us!  You were never here; you don't know us; we don't know you, but listen: you are not alone!  There are other like you!  There are othera like you, amd we have reason to bekieve that you are _all_ in danger.  Find them.  Find the others; you are stronger together!  Stay hidden, but stay together!"
 
Or something like that.  As a sort of "proof of the pudding (and to add a layer of mystery), when they do meet up and befin to work together, I am thinking of just dumping five character points onto them each time they pick up a new someone as part of their team.
 
Then there will be a three or four sessions of "on the run" (and the altruistic organization will be a closed door to them at this point; they won't find a trace of it anywhere) and from their, I would like to work in a couple of complete arcs of actual superhero / secret identity / colorful costumes stuff, with honest to goodness super villains (whose powers have the same source, of course).  I _may_ let one or two of the villains have ties to one or more od the organizations the PCs were being "helped" by (and probably will, if the players want to chase those threads).
 
Hopefully at least _one_ of the characters will have discussed "my nutty grandmother who is in an,institution because she believes she was abducted by aliens, which should trigger  a cascade of "alien abduction?  Wierd!  Me, too!", as I intend to present framework histories (not complete backstories, but "interesting details about your life," (they should not suspect anything, as I have done rhis before- not regularly, but as a means to pushing them toward bexoming a cohesive team-- you all fought in the same war on the same,front-- that sort of thing, and just to keep them grounded, I have always thrown in an offbeat detail or two "just for fun.")
 
And just about the time they are really adapting to this superhero thing-- remember they are the first od their kind; this world will not even have them as fiction, if I can work that in without giving away anything)-
 
About the time they get used to it, there is an en masse attempt to take them down, durinf which time they will winnow down the strength of the secret agencies and perhaps even rhe military---
 
And the aliens will return.
 
And that is where I am stumped.  Why?  Why are the aliens back?  I would like do avoid the bulk of rhe tropes, obviously, but that leaves me nothing but "hey, we accidentally vreated auper beings, but son't worry!  We would like to set that right," and frankly, I dont like that.  I suspect the reason that the teopes have become tropes ("we are here to harvest our bioweapons;" "we need to run some more tests;" "why jave you not,taken over this world?  You were programmed to do so!" etc have all become,tropes is because they work reasonably well as-is.  Still, I would like do,come,up with something just a bit,off the beaten path, but still ominous to,crescendo,what I see as,a,three-year campaign.
 
 

I am actually preparing one now.
 
All supers are the children or grandchildren of alien abductees.
 
As there has been no "alien contact" as of yet, ....
 
 
 

The world has seen exactly two "abnormally talented" individuals in the past, but not quite super-human.  They have been gone (killed in wartime) for a couple of generations at this point, and really only exist as historical clues for the characters to either discover or miss as they see fit.
 
I have only run this past two players thus far, as it is in-progress.  Both seem interested.
 
We will be doing "tiered" power structures, which is to say that there will be three options for how many starting points /disads you want (we play 2e: Disadplications bite hard because to get higher points, you take more of them.
 
The setting lore for the three levels (again, to be discovered by players) is essentially: one abducted ancestor is level1.   Level 1 is primarily increased characteristics, though a minor power may occur.
 
One abductee ancestor _on each side_ (ie, one in the lineage or each parent) is level 2.  This is primarily powers, but no characterisitcs will  exceed maxims.
 
One actual "talented" individual as a parent (it is possible to have a power or trait and never actually know it: very few modern people ever have to _really push_ their strength, or run from certain death, etc) and one adbductee or talented person in the lineage from the other parent yields level 3, which is traditional "super hero" mix of both powers and characteristics.
 
Powers (and certain characteristics may; havent decided yet) have some sort of "control roll;" this will weigh heavier on level 3 characters, obviously.  This is an enforced power limitation that can be bought off with experience, etc. as can any other such limitations.
 
The characters will, in the initial session, be being "helped" individulally by various organizations, as they have found themselves with these abilities and very poor control.
 
I have not decided on the organizations, though clearly, with perhaps one exception, the goal is to control the  character and to to recreate the abilities.  I am leaning heavily- if I have enough players commit- to having _one_ organization genuinely interested in helping the character because he needs help, and then of course, the things to learn are too good to pass up.
 
Level three, having the most disadplications already, will have hanging over them that a small amount of their character points will not be spent by them, but by me, at inopportune times (I am thinking 10 to fifteen points for a 300 pt character, but I will get that sussed out as I go).
 
During the game, EP will be rewarded more-or-less "by the book," meaning that characters of higher starter power level will likely earn experience a bit slower-- that whole "more powerful / less powerful" thing.  I am okay with this, as it gives tier 1 and tier 2 characters a bit of lead to 'catch up,' so to speak.  
 
Again, I am not entirely sure how it will shake out in the final form, but that is the preliminary.  I am thinking of mandatory Hunters-  the "helpful organizations" from which they have escaped (save the altruistic one, if I decide do include it.  The idea is that, should the players not figure it out within... Say, four sessions or so-  then rhe altruistic organization dumps the character they are helping, having seen a pattern of talented people popping up and "disappearing."  (I may throw in a government angle, but I am always leery of such a thing: realistically, PCs do not have a snowball's chance against a national government determined to capture and hold them or otherwise "solve" the problem).  So if the PCs havent figured it out, the one group will info dump somethinf to the effect of "you have to go!  You can't stay here!  It is too dangerous for _all_ of us!  You were never here; you don't know us; we don't know you, but listen: you are not alone!  There are other like you!  There are othera like you, amd we have reason to bekieve that you are _all_ in danger.  Find them.  Find the others; you are stronger together!  Stay hidden, but stay together!"
 
Or something like that.  As a sort of "proof of the pudding (and to add a layer of mystery), when they do meet up and befin to work together, I am thinking of just dumping five character points onto them each time they pick up a new someone as part of their team.
 
Then there will be a three or four sessions of "on the run" (and the altruistic organization will be a closed door to them at this point; they won't find a trace of it anywhere) and from their, I would like to work in a couple of complete arcs of actual superhero / secret identity / colorful costumes stuff, with honest to goodness super villains (whose powers have the same source, of course).  I _may_ let one or two of the villains have ties to one or more od the organizations the PCs were being "helped" by (and probably will, if the players want to chase those threads).
 
Hopefully at least _one_ of the characters will have discussed "my nutty grandmother who is in an,institution because she believes she was abducted by aliens, which should trigger  a cascade of "alien abduction?  Wierd!  Me, too!", as I intend to present framework histories (not complete backstories, but "interesting details about your life," (they should not suspect anything, as I have done rhis before- not regularly, but as a means to pushing them toward bexoming a cohesive team-- you all fought in the same war on the same,front-- that sort of thing, and just to keep them grounded, I have always thrown in an offbeat detail or two "just for fun.")
 
And just about the time they are really adapting to this superhero thing-- remember they are the first od their kind; this world will not even have them as fiction, if I can work that in without giving away anything)-
 
About the time they get used to it, there is an en masse attempt to take them down, durinf which time they will winnow down the strength of the secret agencies and perhaps even rhe military---
 
And the aliens will return.
 
And that is where I am stumped.  Why?  Why are the aliens back?  I would like do avoid the bulk of rhe tropes, obviously, but that leaves me nothing but "hey, we accidentally vreated auper beings, but son't worry!  We would like to set that right," and frankly, I dont like that.  I suspect the reason that the teopes have become tropes ("we are here to harvest our bioweapons;" "we need to run some more tests;" "why jave you not,taken over this world?  You were programmed to do so!" etc have all become,tropes is because they work reasonably well as-is.  Still, I would like do,come,up with something just a bit,off the beaten path, but still ominous to,crescendo,what I see as,a,three-year campaign.
 
 

I ran a Multiform character for about a year. When I created it, it seemed overpowered, but it was the only way to realize the character concept. It worked wonderfully. Each form had a distinct personality and motivations (with a specific common goal). But …
 
It was greatly overpowered. One form was a smooth-talking conman, another was a tracker, then a martial artist, and lastly a killing tank. Being able to switch forms, even requiring a full turn, made it much too easy to fine tune the character to most situations.
 
I thoroughly enjoyed the role-playing. But the power imbalance became a real problem. 

I think a game needs a narrative structure in its magic and there needs to be a way in which players interact with that.  I still claim that it does not need to be like technology.
 
 
But throughout human history we have had folk "practice" magic that was neither reproducible, consistent (beyond not actually working) or reliable.  People want power and they are often willing to risk inconsistency, unreliability or reproducible results if there is a chance of that power.
 
I think it is possible to make it gameable but I get that it is not for everyone.
 
 
Tell me, do you need to know what is true, or do you need to know what the wizard thinks is true?  Personally, it us the latter for me, I like to know what he wants to achieve and what he wants to be true. He might be right, he might be partly right, sometimes things might happen, other times they don't.
 
There are quite a few studies showing how animals pick up superstitions, relying on actions that seemed to work once or twice, hoping that will work again. People are animals in this.
 
 
I kind of missed Vampire, the folk playing it never appealed to me and I stuck with Runequest and Champions.  one of my friends though did a few Mage one-offs.
 
 
My son is far more emotionally developed than me.  I had to work hard at modelling that behaviour for him.
 
 

I am actually preparing one now.
 
All supers are the children or grandchildren of alien abductees.
 
As there has been no "alien contact" as of yet, ....
 
 
 

For me, the key difference between science/technology and magic -- at least in a game setting -- is not predictability. If magic has no predictable effects, there'd be no benefit to using it, or in our case, playing it. That doesn't mean it can't be dangerous to use. There's danger in handling live electrical wires, or heavy machinery, or explosives.
 
What makes magic distinctive to me is that it be wondrous. Experiencing magic should make our eyes widen, our hearts beat faster. It should make us feel we're touching something beyond the ken of our normal lives. Technology is so familiar to us, it seems mundane. IMHO there are a few ways you can use to get that feeling of wonder in a game.
 
First, magic should be rare. Technology usually doesn't impress us because it's around us all the time. That doesn't necessarily preclude a given society commonly having access to magic with minor everyday uses, like calling fish to your hook, or mending a broken pot. But powerful magic should be rarely encountered by most people. Those who can use it must be highly trained, or unusually gifted, or must fulfill other conditions most people can't.
 
Second, magic should be impressive. So much of our tech involves pushing a button or flipping a switch or turning a key, and then something starts running. The sfx of powerful magic should be notably grand, in either beauty or horror; and not just in the effect produced, but in the initiation and buildup to that effect.
 
Third, magic should be mysterious. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be a philosophy behind it, or that you shouldn't know how to do what you're trying to do. But there should be a sense that what you're tapping into is a small part of something vast beyond your understanding. Casting a lightning bolt shouldn't be thought of as just generating electricity, but as invoking the power of the sky.
 
There's another element that's not integral to all systems of magic, but when it applies, definitely sets it apart from science.  Science is based on objective, unvarying physical laws that simply exist. But if the power you call upon is under the control of a supernatural being with intelligence and its own agenda, like a spirit or god or demon, that adds a level of interactivity you never get from tech. You can only guess at the being's motivations, and what it may expect in exchange for its help. Such entities operate on a level beyond the mundane (hence "supernatural"), and that certainly enhances the sense of wonder.
 
 

(I hope that came across as courteously as I intended.  I _like_ Doc D, and don't want anyine thinking I am being flippant here.)

Before getting started here, let's remember that I have _never_, not once, pretended to enjoy dramatic fantasy, and have always been pretty open that the reason is "I don't like magic."
 
Yes; I have totally also always voiced the idea that "DnD magic feels more like the magic of most fantasy fiction than does any HERO System magic."
 
However, the two are _not_ contradictory: fantasy magic typically has no rhyme or reason.  DnD magic suits that well.
 
Just as a quick recap:
 
Always open about not liking fantasy.
Always open about preferring that magic make sense and follow certain patterns, even if those patterns are completely arbitrary.
Always open about not liking magic in general (though I will take magic over elves any day of the week, but I am pretty open about that, too).
 
Extremely open that my first love, RPG-wise, will always be Classic Traveller, which is rumored to be quietly a-magical.
 
When FRED landed and we were all discussing Steve'a merger of all the various genres into one continuum and our various opinions in it, I remember being the only one whose biggest complaint was "what is thia2 magic nonsense?  Why do superheroes and science fiction and distant aliens have to be tied to some kind of "ebb and flow of magic in the universe"?!  (Frankly, I _still_ find that offensive, but hey; since I don't use it, I can let it go).  I remember being told that it wasnt a big deal and I remember being told it was a silly complaint in light of [insert next guy's personal opinion of the all-in-one timeline].
 
I have made no secret that in fantasy, I will almost always play a human, usually some sort of fighter (and always not a wizard), but as I can be periodically be talked into playing a dwarf i9r variant humanoid of non-magical origin, it is probably better to say "I don't play magical races," but it really,is a foregone conclusion after being completely open about prefering all-human parties.  That actually bleeds into my sci-fi, too.  I don't force it, mind you, but it is by far my preference.
 
I could go on, but since I already have, let me just say in short that I am tripping over my jaw upon realizing that, even after all these years of complete openness about all of this, "Duke isn't really into magic" comes as a surprise to _anyone_, particulalry you, Doc. 
 
 

 
 
 
 
 
I don't really see how the two notions- "not liking magic" and "putting technology in with the magic" are connected.
 
I mean, I have seen it, obviously, and in general I don't really care for it, probably because of the magic.  However, as I have said, it is in dramatic settings that "magic is mysterious and does what it does (like gain exactly one die of effect each time I get that crazy 'does anyone else feel like they have leveled up?" sensation after taking down a band of forest brigands or some such) without rules or regulations, etc, etc.
 
Outside of dramatic settings?  Yeah; I am fine with it.  It lends itself to anything that doesnt take itself seriously because without a sensibke framework behind it, it is sifficult for me to take it seriously.  I make it a point every few years to reread DeChancie's Skyway trilogy (at least the first two books) as well as Turtledove's Case of the Toxic Spell Dump.  Magic abounds in that book, and that book is _awesome_!
 
 
 
 
 
Every game from every company has rules that regulate magic, in particular breaking it into dice and how to increase those dice and what counteracts, weakens, or increases those dice. It's pretty much a science already.  I think it might be _explanation_ that you don't like, and my friend, I am cool with that.  Play what _you_ like; read what _you_ like (though if you have any love for puns and nowadays-incredibly-dated-pop-culture-references, I highly encourage you to give Toxic Spell Dump a read). 
 
 
 
 
I don't play Glorantha for the same reason I dont play much of any fantasy:
 
Magic doesn't trip my  trigger as presented in most games and books and movies.  HERO, by its nature, offers a "magic system" I _do_ like, probably because it is an honest-to-Pete _system_.  Even then, given a choice between "game with magic" and "gake without," it's a pretty rare day for me to pick "with."
 
 
 
 
I had a few sacred cows like that early on, when I was trying to figure out how to make HERO magic feel like "magical magic," until a friend pointed out that all observation is science.
 
In this case, if you cast Fireball and you reliably get a fireball...  
 
Or your fireball gets more of X tied to definite triggers like charms, scrolls, or "levelling up," it is already a science; it lacks only explanation of where the fire comes from.
 

 
Anyway, it is getting late, and I would like to go through a xoh2ole more 4e books before turning in.
 
 
Good night, folks!
 
 

I was unaware of this about Glorantha... and, while I haven't had a whole lot of interest in it over the years it's been around, now I have zero. 

Clarke's Law at work. Because we live in a society that embraces science and technology -- often on a level that would seem miraculous to our ancestors -- it's tempting to view magic through that lens, as "science we don't understand yet," rather than as being truly supernatural.
 
One big reason I like the 4E Fantasy Hero "spell colleges" is because each is coherently unique, on several levels. Each one has a philosophy behind it as to why and how it works. Each has a distinctive style of spell casting, in terms of descriptions of physicality, appurtenances, in some cases even the caster's state of mind. The Special Effects for each college's spells are vivid, often imaginative, and thematically related to the college's philosophy. You couldn't mistake one college's magic for that of another.

While you are not wrong, Doc-- magic should have a certain "it just is, without explanation" type nature to _feel_ like magic (and this has been a long-standing gripe for me with regards of making "magic" in the HERO System-  it's essentially super Powers with time delay and maybe a little bloodletting-
 
I actually (personally) prefer the HERO approach to magic because it is _magic_ that I have never found appealing in a dramatic setting.  It is the reason I generally do not care for fantasy, even as reading material.
 
Even as a kid, magicians and such had no appeal for me.  😕
 
when I include "magic" in my fantasy, I want it to follow structured principles, like any other science.
 
 

Not really sure why I prefer the not-magic guys.  To be completely hinest with myself,I think it is because, in general, I dont like magic. 
 
 

I, for one, would be sad to see social justice removed from D&D products. I happen to think social justice is a good thing.

Less, in fact.  Software engineers would be like wizards isolated in their towers, conducting bizarre rituals and never interacting with the real world.  Whereas cloud engineers would be hedge wizards, knowing a hodgepodge of random spells that actually get things done.

And what a slog it was to grind two or three dungeons to earn enough coin to raise a dead companion, after dragging him halfway across the know lands...
 
Uphill....
 
In the snow....
 
 
 
So you generally looted his corpse while he rolled up a new guy.
 
And Iron Array.
 
And no Feats every time you gained a handful of EPs
 
 
And starting out at level 1.
 
Or zero.
 
 

That's the problem for a lot of old fanzines. The rights are the murkiest, and many of the contributors will be difficult if not impossible to reach. I have a feeling the old fanzines will slip into obscurity and inaccessibility far faster than other media. And another piece of the gaming history will be gone forever.
 
EDIT: And it should go without saying, I'd be interested in the progress of this and would like to subscribe to your newsletter!

Clairsentience would work.  It would let you put your sense point outside the Darkness.  Note that if the Darkness affects any of the Clair- senses, then you won't be able to perceive into the Darkness area, but you'll still be able to perceive outside of it.
 
 
If they've bought Darkness vs. taste/smell, it would cover that sense group even if the group was bought with Targeting.  The cost of the Darkness assumes the 'normal human suite' regardless of what extras (i.e. Targeting) the target might have bought. 
 
 

And what a slog it was to grind two or three dungeons to earn enough coin to raise a dead companion, after dragging him halfway across the know lands...
 
Uphill....
 
In the snow....
 
 
 
So you generally looted his corpse while he rolled up a new guy.
 
And Iron Array.
 
And no Feats every time you gained a handful of EPs
 
 
And starting out at level 1.
 
Or zero.
 
 

Darkness does not require a way to turn it off.  UAA is what requires a reasonable way to turn it off.  So, the first instance would require some way to avoid the attack, but the second one does not.  The second instance does not have UAA it has Useable simultaneously by 16 people.  That means the targets have to be willing.  The price is also wrong for that one it should be + 1 ½ for 16 people.  The second instance has personal immunity, so I am assuming it was designed as a defense and does not affect the target. 
 
It’s possible the power does have a reasonably common way to avoid it but is just not listed.  When I construct the power in Hero Designer it does not list the defense for the UAA, the comment section is commonly used for this, but nothing prompts you for it.
 
The power is fairly strong but there are plenty of ways to get around it.  As Grailknight pointed out combat sense will negate this. 

I am just go8ng to throw rhis out there, because apparently in all the years since Naked Advantages became officially endorsed, only my players are the kind of creative jerks to try this:
 
 
Personal Immunity, Ranger, useable as attack.
 
 
Suddenly  you are untouchable by at least one opponent's favorite attack.
 
I didn't allow it, obviously, but it was fiendishly clever.