Thia Halmades

Re: Chronicles of Gor *stares at his feet a moment, pondering. Takes a deep breath* Capt. JT Kohonez: It's inflammatory rhetoric like this which incites me to riot. I'm going to try and write this as flame-free as possible, and offer my opinion without tripping on my own athame. You're correct. It is. And most fantasy is based on another person's interpretation of reality, whether that reality is an idealized state or merely a reflection of their views at the time, or an expression of frustration, guilt, pain or loss. My own work is a reflection of how I see the world. I paint in lots and lots of grey, dark blues, and blood, blood red. My love is like a red red rose, that was formerly white, before I sprayed blood on a rose bush. Hey, it's just fiction. But now it's fiction talking about despoiling flowers and possibly murder - I actually edited my original passage because it was too evocitive and clear an image, and I didn't want to rattle anyone's cages. Had I left the passage intact, I may very well have draw a warning flag and gotten an edit for it. That isn't to say I was wrong for saying it; it's to say that people can read it and be offended. Your defense: It's fiction, therefore we are the thought police - is inherently flawed. No one is saying you can't read it. There were lots of people who suggested reading something else, but hey. We aren't talking about limitations on open minded thinking. We're talking about personal opinions on a work which seems, generally speaking, to not be well appreciated. The Fool brings up two excellent points. First, just because it's billed as fiction doesn't mean some idiot isn't taking it seriously. Second, it's people like this that give people like him (BDSM in general) a bad name. Next. Yes, some people are going to be of the opinion people like him should dissapear. But why take that so seriously? It's only an opinion. Your argument is double edged in all the wrong ways; you're defending the author's right to write and publish whatever he pleases, even though some find it outright disgusting, but then condeming people for holding opinions contrary to his, or to the extent that he shouldn't be around. Those people are expressing disgust and anger, and it's well within their rights to do so, as much as it is within the author's rights, or yours, to rail against it and defend his work. Which, I might add, you are free to do. Defend away. People don't always like my work, they criticize my work, but I don't freak out about it. I stare at it, think about it (see my post on building a magic system - that's not only a lot of criticism, a lot of it is countering criticism, which is really confusing) and I take it in, think about it, digest it, and produce more work. However. (You know you were all waiting for it). However. This is the sort of absurdist statement that positively rattles my cage. You think I don't know what the deuce I'm talking about, hey. Totally cool. You disagree with Liaden, or The Fool, or Killer Shrike, hey, I'm down. Disagree away. But to take a few posters opinions - posters who clearly aren't fond of the source material - and then accuse not only of being thought police - i.e., telling other people what to do with the assumption that they have the authority to enforce it - but further raising the accusation that they're knee jerk reactions flamers who are spraying hate at an author with no thought for the work, what it means to them, or what it represents. Now that's ignorance at its finest. Read the rest of the posts. By all means, form your own opinion of Gor. Defend it, if you like. More power to you. But don't come down from on high, insist that everyone is wrong because they disagree and then proceed to insult all of us, unilaterally, for having an opinion different from yours.

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System Killer Shrike: Fair enough, this seems like one of those things where everyone has an opinion. My next reasonable question then is this: Per your original build, you gutted the standard VPP structure, yes? Could you explain (in small words, if possible) why you went that route, specifically, rather than an open ended Spell Route or something similar? And do you cost out the VPP in the same way? i.e., to have a 60 point VPP I would need to burn 60 and then 30? Please explain!

Re: Shamans, or "restrictions on spell schools" What he said.

Re: Worldbuilding exercise Well, that changes everything dramatically, doesn't it? I will rethink my otherwise perfectly good (but utterly useless) idea. Huzzah!

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System Markdoc: Holy cats. For whatever reason, for the first time, that did actually make sense. Don't know what was different this time than last time, but I did, miraculously, "get it." w00t.

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System The Fool: I'm glad that I got a laugh out of you for that one. You've been astoundingly helpful and I thought you'd appreciate the humor. I will read up on Delayed Effect and Trigger tonight if I get the chance. We game on Tuesday's and tonight is the "primary" campaign, next week is my Ravenloft campaign. The first one to get switched is likely going to be the primary game, because that has more need for change. I'm running Ravenloft somewhat close to RAW and trying to hand out treasure, etc. It's going very well, actually, and I'm honestly surprised. I've never seen people run from more encounters in my life, though. However, Ravenloft is part of what started the problem from my initial thread, saying, basically, "If this creature hits you, you be f'd." That just doesn't seem fair to me, so I actively chose to swing at the Paladin (hey, I've got a soft heart) and he survived - but by a die roll. There was no defense for the attack initially. Trigger, Delayed Effect. If I say it enough times I should be able to retain it. I'm warning y'all, though, you might be stuck just shaking your fist at my END Reserve build. Y'all been warned. However. If what you're suggesting will actually work, then obviously I want to go with the most elegant structure, so I'm willing to go into any available possibility. Trigger, Delayed Effect (and yes, Lucius, I am listening). Be pretty pointless to sit here and post if I weren't willing to take the criticism and ideas, now wouldn't it? Counter intuitive that. "What?" "Where's the tea?"

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System Chris Goodwin: I see what you're saying, that my way isn't how END is used. But is there a reason it can't be used that way? I reasoned from effect; if all Spells cost END... and the END is provided by training and experience, rather than an internal reserve... therefore the wizard doesn't provide END... then they would need a separate power source to represent that. While I recognize your argument, "That's not what it's for" - I still don't see a reason why I can't use it that way, if I so choose and it works for my system. It's END, and END is fuel. I'm just representing that fuel differently mechanically than someone else might, or may be considered the simplest & best way. I thought it was rather elegant, really. Shadowpup: Ranks/Levels - this is due to my limited grip on HERO, and I'll look into it. You have a point. What I was trying to express was simply, you should have a roll of 11- vs. the spell rank that you've achieved competence in. I'll see if I can adjust that, as you have a good point; someone with a 22 INT is going to be better than someone with a 14 INT, for a lot less work. I conferred with Steve and he also said what you did: OCV no touchy. Which is good advice, I must admit. it was a consideration based on my current grip, which is constantly improving. Thanks for taking the time to post through. Ah, that may do the trick as well. Thanks! The worst part is I read VPP, I finally started to grasp VPP, and then I realized that the problem I was having is that no one was using VPP as written; they had each modified it in their own way, which is totally cool, but the primary reason my eyes were rattling in my head. The Fool: More the Fool I, because I still don't grep Delayed Effect, despite it possibly being the 'most efficient' method available. This is something I clearly have to read up on, because everyone is saying "HEY! THIA! THIS IS YOUR SOLUTION! HUZZAH!" And I feel like the guy who won the lottery, but he himself doesn't know it yet. Everyone else is excited, and I'm just vaguely confused. You could reasonably say that I feel like Arthur Dent. I've entered a whole new world. I'd like some tea. And a nap. The thing I say most often seems to be "What?" I freely associate with a BDSMer with a fetish for the Unseelie and a blazon to represent virility. It's true, you could replace me. Just build a robot that says "What?" and "Where's the tea?" and no one would know the difference. Douglas Adams, RIP.

Re: Worldbuilding exercise I dont' believe I missed this originally. My apologies. Unless you think my material bites, then by all means, dismiss it. Once I realized the objective, I actively stopped reading other people's posts, preferring to put up my own ideas without mental interference. So, if anything is redudant, it's purely a result of coincidence and people with the same hobby coughing up similar ideas. So magicians who correct the errors of the Divine. Interesting concept; if nothing else you could reasonably submit that magic is clearly the Divine Tool used to shape the world put in the hands of the people, and that may, or may not, have been a terribly good idea in and of itself. First things first. Who dey, as the Bengals fans say. Since you are using a Norse pantheon structure, might I suggest "Eyes of the Ravens?" You can translate that as necessary, but as Odin is King, and Huggin & Munnin are his Memory & Thoughts, then "Eyes of the Raven" is a direct relationship to: - The Church, and service to Odin - The element of Odin which acts as observer - A double entendre as Ravens act as spies & emissaries - A triple entendre as they can also be a portent of Death (see: A murder of crows, an unkindness of ravens). This could also turn into a series of presumptions about this particular unit and their ultimate objective. Any time you introduce a secretive organization, you're going to have some mangy git who's trying to corrupt (or has already corrupted) the power base to the extent that he can alter the flow of information, assignments & move acquired artifacts. Food for thought. Impressive Name: "The Eyes of the Ravens" Description of the Organization: Established approximately (X) years ago by the Church, in direct response to (major event which was possibly avoidable based on pre-existing campaign material), the Church determined there was a major flaw in its policy. Because of its reactive stance, and inability to properly focus its energy, events unfolded beneath many eyes scanning from a distance, that a single set of eyes, determined to find the problem, would have uncovered. No doctrine had previously existed which covered the idea of paranormal activity; to a certain extent, there was no need for it. Spell casting was generally under the control of the Church, and any rogue constructs or creatures were usually swiftly handled by Thor's Hammer or Odin's Spear, the two most active units within the church military. The adage "You cannot kill what you cannot see" holds true, however. Rather than punish any single group for the failure and subsequent catastrophe, the Chruch created a new, special operations unit. Eyes of the Ravens was designated as an investigative unit with Search & Seizure capacity, which could be called on to directly intervene with extensive investigations. A unit in the Eyes is held to extremely high standards, and even within the Church they are, at times, regarded with some suspiscion. Their proximity to the bizarre - and their apparent fearlessness of it - has earned them a reputation as being brave, fool hardy, and possibly insane. Few people actually understand the mission, or that there are some agents within the Ravens who have no interest in ever finding anything; they view themselves as professional debunkers, out to correct minor problems. Glorified desk workers who occassionally are forced to go on field assignments. The people who make a difference, though, are those members who love this job. Who are not only excited about their next assignment, but recognize the importance of their work. That in the wrong hands, the Tools of the Gods can wreak so much havok that the damage may be irreperable. They are observers who are organized to strike before the enemy ever knew they were there. Investigators who delve into the darkest mysteries of their world. If you ask them, they may tell you they, like their name sakes, only answer to one authority: Odin Himself. There's your flavor text (or at least an initial pass at it). Hope it helps!

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System Ultrarob - I had actually never once considered the idea of a magic system that had the chance of failing, believe it or not. The thought had never occured to me; magic works, that's what it does. However, you bring up an excellent point; we roll to hit, we roll to bake bread, we roll to fish, why not roll to cast? I don't disagree with it, but it seems as though both sides are right, but it's dependent on the setting and the build of the world. My world structure is built to be low magic compared to High Fantasy, but the stuff works. In a more Sci-Fi/Urban Fantasy setting (my personal favorite is Urban, actually) I would almost automatically go for the skill roll, because it makes sense to me in that setting, specifically. As far as your prayers not being answered? Building a Sin Bin is actually a really nifty concept; rather than 'revoking' powers, actions which are outside of favor with the Deity are punished by penalizing actions the Faithful takes until enough 'proper' actions are done, or until Atonement is made. *glances side to side* SWIPE.

Re: Shamans, or "restrictions on spell schools" Lucius has got a point there, although interpreting "Shamanism" in mechanics terms starts a religious debate with me. Simply put, there are a lot of ways to do it, and while I cringe at the idea of losing a key ability (Divination manifesting as speaking with Spirits who have answers, and works for either of the two classes) it is zippercomics world, though, so more power to him. While I agree with the Palindromedary, I yield that ZC's build is the goal here. I certainly don't have the Shaman Package memorized, but muddling my way through the first of three magic systems (or more) I need to build right now, I can say with a straight face, don't hold yourself to any one standard. Take what you need, chuck the rest. As far as your question: This is a you call; KS (as usual) has a point here, and that's is as much a matter of flavor as mechanics. If you want to give them the points back in the racial package, then by all means, restrict thier usage of other magic types. Do you need to? This is HERO. You don't need to do much of anything, it's all options, baby. Killer Shrike had posted something to me yesterday and said, simply, write down what you want to do, and reason backwards from that. If you decide "No, there's no way they can do this; Shamanism is an extension of their ancestral heritage, and as such it is the Spirit who chooses the user; the Ogres themselves have no other magical ability." You can do that. If, as KS said it's a matter of training, then it would be a psychological or physical limitation; could also be build in as part of a reputation (too stupid). A reputation can be overcome in game, and the player can then buy it off. Or, use it to their advantage. "What does that Ogren think he's doing? Everyone knows they're too... stupid... to... GET DOWN!" You've got options. Hope those are at least helpful. Good morning!

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System Good morning! Nope! Doesn't make sense! This is in large part because y'all are way more familiar with Delayed Effect than I am, although it may be the way to go. It at least sounds, on the surface, like something that can work. However, that's a whole new concept I'm totally unfamiliar with (I read the whole book, but I didn't retain the whole book) so if someone wants to enlighten me, and operate on the assumption I don't yet know what all y'all are talkin' about, that'd be groovy. I did do a write up last night of what I want Wizardry to be, and a possible build for it. I'm not sure if it's too limited, not limited enough, what. So I'll post the mess here, and let y'all suss it out. "And a band of demons joined in, and it sounded somethin' like this:" Wizardy Model (v.0.5) Premise/Challenge: to build a persistent wizardy model that reflects both the training required to learn how to wield magic, and the limited reserve of ability that a Wizard has available to cast that magic. Initial Concepts: Because of the roots of d20, multiple methods of 'simulating' that system were taken into consideration initially, and while some ideas (pre designated slots, meta magic) were kept, many more were pitched (fixed slots by level, spells are set, and cannot be altered, etc.). Primary Build: To combine the necessity of a Skill/Talent/Perquisite with the ability to learn & effectively wield, and learn, magic. Using an END Reserve, it would be a simple matter of having the END pre-assigned to reflect memorized spells. Wizards could then, later on, ditch their END and replace it, but the END only refreshes after 8 hours of rest. I ditched VPPs, not because I didn't get them, because the combined cost of the usable points, plus the Control Cost, didn't add up to what I wanted; the entire thing felt entirely too awkward, and I wanted something simpler. I grasp VPPs now (I spent an hour reviewing it) and I see how they're used, but they weren't appropriate to this. In this setting, magic isn't a "power" in and of itself, it's a Skill. The ability to scribe spells into a book, prepare them and cast them is the heart of the ability. Foundation Rules (v.0.5): Spells are learned in one of two ways. Either with a direct CP buy of 'researched' spells to reflect a Wizards ongoing research, or through the study of scrolls, tomes, grimoires & other ancient texts. Spells researched in this fashion require a Spell Craft (INT) check. Every 10 Active Points in a Spell assess a +1 penalty to the check. This mechanic (10 pts.) is used throughout this magic system for the sheer sake of simplicity and ease of digestion among new players. The skill, Spell Craft, is required for anyone trained to use magic as a Wizard. It is the direct amount of knowledge you possess, and your knowledge is a direct reflection of your ability to cast. Secondly, all Wizards must have the Talent: "Trained Caster", which is their END Reserve. A wizard's END Reserve may never be higher than his Skill: Spell Craft x 10. i.e., if you have five ranks in Spell Craft, you would have an END Reserve of 50. Common Spell Structures/Notes on Spells: Any adder or advantage can be attached to any spell. A spell a PC researched and gained through those channels doesn't cost CP (it counts as equipment for purposes of a Heroic setting), but any changes the PC wants to make to the spell does cost CP. Spells are not permanently set; because Magic is Science, the Wizard can futz with their formulae as much as they like, but all changes cost CP. A wizard could "scale back" a spell, but cannot recover CP from doing so. Magic requires effort and focus. All spells, at their initial creation, must include the following disadvantages: Concentration (1/2) -1/2 DCV while casting OAF - Spell Component (varies) All common spell disads still apply. Any spell seen in the Grimoire which uses RSR should replace RSR with Concentration. If it already has both, recalculate the spell without RSR, unless the caster specifically wishes to include it. There is no Power Framework for Spells in this model; spells are purchased individually, and each spell (right now) costs 1/2 of its Real Cost. ###THERE MAY BE MATH HERE I'M UNAWARE OF AS TO WHY IT WOULD BE 1/3, IF SO, PLEASE EXPLAIN### Spells are classified into Colleges. Each College is part of the University of Magic, a campaign specific entity and major political power. Each College can be learned as a separate skill (Divination, Abjuration, Conjuration, etc.) Because Magic as a Science is always being advanced, there are multiple permutations on some themes, and colleges are being introduced and discarded on a regular basis. The primary Colleges are referred to in Elder Texts as the Major & Minor Arcana. Spell Stunts: In order to Push a spell beyond its listed limits, or use a Magic Talent on a spell from a school, the caster must make a skill roll based on the college the spell is from, or take a -4 penalty for using Spell Craft directly. Spell Craft can be used to aid this skill roll per the standard rules. Wizard's Push: Another element I wanted to include was the ability of a Wizard to Push their normal limits; I'd encountered the idea in the stat breakdowns in the book, and ran with it. A Wizard's push is very limited, but can be of great use. A Wizard Push requires the following: - A Skill Roll within the college the spell is from, per the above rules. - Double the END Cost for the spell; if the Wizard has END available in their Reserve, they may use it for the Push. Any END not available must come from the Wizard directly. - A Wizard is Concentrating during a Push, and is at 1/2 DCV. I may change this to full Concentration (0 DCV) but haven't decided yet; I don't want the power to be worthless, and being completely vulnerable might render it pretty much useless. - A spell requires Extra Time equal to one half phase per END required to fuel it. This is counted past the initial half phase normally associated with casting the spell. (Hence, a spell with 42 Active Points would cost 4 END, and take 2.5 Phases to cast, with the spell completing at the end of the 5th Half Phase). Per the standard rules, any action a Wizard could take with the remaining Half Phase after casting a spell is available to him. Sample Breakdown: Using this method, a starting Wizard may be built as such. Costs: Spell Craft, 5 ranks, 15 pts. END Reserve, 3 points/50 END (only applies to magic (-1/2), refreshes only after 8 hours rest (simple) (-1/4)). Spells Available, 30 points. 60 active, 14 real, cost 7, END 6 (to mem each time) 23 / 6 / 3 / 2 90 / 20 / 10 / 9 10 / 2 / 1 / 1 30 / 8 / 4 / 3 19 / 5 / 3 / 2 Using this minor sample, the final numbers are 232 Active Points in spells, 55 Real Points, 28 CP, and 24 END to prepare each spell once. That seemed to work out to me, but I'm not good with long-term math. I'm also still working out targeting and what have you; it makes sense to use Spell Craft (or a Specialist Skill) to act as the To Hit roll, but I'm not certain of that yet. It may put too much emphasis on the Spell Craft roll, although using SER I could argue that bulking the skill up should directly reflect on the targeting roll, but again, that's the sort of thing I'm turning to y'all for. I'm also considering capping Active Power of a spell at the Skill Level x 10, and that would also make sense, but I haven't made up my mind on that yet. So there's the initial write up. I hope you find it at least moderately helpful in what you're doing, and I will await feedback with bated breath. Good morning!

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System Killer Shrike: First, thanks for taking the time to help me break some of this down. In response to your post, yes, I absolutely want to break away from certain traditions within d20 and make the classes actually different, and functional from said different. In re: structured levels and buying "Silent Spell" as a 10 point Naked Advantage, that makes total sense to me, actually. Would it apply to all spells, or would it change the cost (via END or some other means) to the final cost of the spell? Your system doesn't use END in the first place, but I don't want them to be able to burn 10 CP and never have to use Incants again, so how would that balance out at the end of the day?

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System Hey Nightshade, thanks for the post & the input! To respond directly: - I can certainly see where using a recovering END Reserve for Sorcerors makes sense, and I'm leaning in that direction. My original model (see post one) was to use an END reserve for everyone, and have the END pre-spent across spells (another way of doing the prep/time thing). Then if necessary, allowing casters to cast directly from their books, although you offer up some groovy variations on this. - Priests are the weird ones, because I'd like to break them from the mold of "Divine Wizard" and do something genuinely different with them. Get all rebellious on all y'all. For one, I've never actually liked the Priest model. In AD&D, they were healing batteries who had to mem heals, or they were useless. In d20, they're healing batteries who are generally afraid to chuck spells because they might need a heal and won't have it. That's also pretty weak. I'd like to build a Priest model that does the following: - Represents a direct connection with their Deity. This may mean turning undead. It may not. If you aren't playing a Sun God, or an agent of Death (Death as a Force, vs. Death as an Incarna of Evil, which I've never actually agreed with, as it doesn't make any freaking sense) then you might have no interaction with the Undead or need to Turn them in the slightest. So why waste points on the power if it doesn't fit? - d20 has "Special Abilities" listed in their domains based on their Divine Affiliation. Whether it's "+1 Die to Heal Spells" (which would be built as an Aid, 1d6, Only to Healing Spells, X Charges/Day) and the Priest chose to improve it, I think that would be awesome. It's a great concept, but limited by d20's reliance on either leveling, or having all abilities static. I want to throw all of that out. If the PC wants to say "I got closer to G-d, and I'm expanding my Divine Gift" hey, great. Do that. - I do want Priests to focus more on "support" magic, but I want that support magic to be a direct reflection of their Deity, not simply a massive collection of spells, from which they can draw "Domain" spells outside of the normal spell slot selection. - I don't necessarily want them to be slot based, but it may still be the Way To Go in this instance. Priests to me are ... well, they fuel their magic with Prayer. That's their schtick. There are some folk who don't believe in a Deity, but generate the same effect. They can argue the source all day long. This in part represents that some people don't try to explain why they do things, they simply do them. They would be Priests with different flavor text. - ALL PRIESTS have some sort of focus, whether they believe in a deity or not. It can be a "good luck charm," an old photograph of a dead lover that they keep as a reminder of why they're doing what they do, whatever. All Priest magic must begin with the requirement: OAF, Divine Focus. It may use the limitation, Incantations, Gestures, and generally will, but the power of the Divine isn't like Magic; it isn't mathematical. It's Faith, and with enough Faith, you can move mountains. - A Priest may, at time of creation, opt to Channel Heals or Inflicts, but this is a personal choice, and not actually based on alignment. A good person can be vengeful and use their inflict (as an EB) to put someone down. That's reasonable to me. Thoughts?

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System Killer Shrike - thank you, for taking the time to explain all of that. That I largely understood (and there was much rejoicing). I also have a much deeper appreciation for why your systems are designed the way they are. Because I'm a "why" thinker - without knowing the reason a thing was done, I have difficulty grasping it in the first place - this was actually astoundingly helpful, and it gave me some background as to your design and experience. So you have my genuine and sincere thanks. I'm still trying to muddle through some of the other notes you've posted, because you're so familiar with the system you're speaking at times in terminology that goes right past me, so I find myself rereading the notes from the professor in an attempt to enhance my understanding of the mechanics themselves. Riddle me this: In your VPP model, you essentially "threw out" the spells known = total VPP limit, and instead improvised it to be "Can know any spell, but can only memorize a number of spells equal to real cost multiplied by current VPP, and can memorize multiple instances of a spell, and once a spell is consumed (one charge per 'slot') it can't be recharged until one night/8 hours rest. Do I understand that correctly, or am I still missing something? Chris Goodwin gave me a good example of how END reserves work, and that was groovy. I still see a few ways to incorporate it, and I may (despite your original model, KS) still have casters use END to cast prepared spells, but this (and i3ullseye suggested this) may be more in line with Sorcery, where the power comes from a specific internal reserve. How do Wizards, under your Vacian system, gain new spells? Do they pay full CP in Real Cost? Is there a divider? Is there a rule for adding a spell into a VPP that I don't know off the top of my head that answers this question? Thanks, and thanks. And... oh yeah. Rep. And thanks! You must spread around more Reputation before giving it to Killer Shrike again. CURSES!

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO And that's why I opted to flip in the first place, because I had plenty of PCs who were improving in areas that they shouldn't, by any stretch, be getting better at. I have no problem with the Rogue learning lots of skills; that's what they do. But if they want to get better at fighting, they're stuck. They want to start slinging magic across the field? So solly! No ticky, no laundry! There's an extent to which that makes sense; you can only do what you've trained (i.e., taken a level in) to do. I'm down with that. i3ulleye makes a phenomenal point though - and what if my Father was a Martial Artist, and I chose to be a Cleric? Do you think he let me grow up without basic combat training? Is that properly reflected by my BAB? Even if I'm nowhere near as good as he is, maybe I retained basic defense skills, or remember how to pivot and add some oomph to my swings. There's no way to represent that in d20 without buying: - A level in... Monk? Wait, what? Why the... no, no that won't work. Monk doesn't come close to representing my youth, which was nominally spent in the Church. - I'll burn a feat! But... I only get 8 or so in my career; I can't justify the expenditure for the sake of improved characterization, that doesn't begin to make sense. Danggit. - I'll take a level in Fighter! Yes! Now I have a free feat, all the armors I could ever want, and an extra Base Attack Bonus! Huzzah! But... well, it's great, from a powergame perspective, but doesn't really come close to "martial arts training," does it? Curses. That's out. - I'll just adjust my class abilities to reflect... no, wait, that's utterly illegal. Curses! And about the seventh time you've gone around this loop, you realize that at the outset, you need to make sacrifices, and that's where the system starts to really break down. It's also why I don't understand why more people won't simply acknowledge that d20 is an entry level system, and it isn't built to represent all genres. Quite the opposite.

Re: Fantasy Cliches Actually, the bulk of my structure was inverting a lot of this standard stuff and going for the juggular in terms of reinterpretation. The Elves would love to run, but can't, because their link to Arcadia was severed during the last Planar War. Woops. Stupid, long lived, pointy eared gits. It's what they deserve, I tell ya.

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System Actually, that's what I did, which is how I wound up with my initial solution. Hence the grand irony of the thing; I did think about what I wanted to do, and reasoned backwards based on my current understanding (albeit new) of the rules. The only thing I really wanted to "keep" from d20 were Metamagic (which is partially covered in Fantasy Hero) and the idea of designated spells and slots per day. Part of the math I dismissed because it was already obvious to me; Gestures, Incantations, and OAFs are already built in, and the Grimoire gives tons of great examples. Druidry, Wizardy, etc. What makes this initial conversion difficult is because there is a specific feel I want to retain. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel, in all honesty, I'm looking for a way to represent what I want to do and build a system that does that, exactly. Which is why I used END Reserve to represent that. Spells use END, END that shouldn't be coming from the Wizard themselves. Of course I'm lost on VPPs, I'm new. That's to be expected, but as I noted before, I'm only going to learn by trying and discussing it. So to put everyone at ease (or at least Chris Goodwin) I don't take it as patronizing, any more than someone coming in blind to d20 and saying "How does this work?" should take my comments as patronizing; they don't know, I know. I'm here lookin' for help, and I'm appreciative of all that help, and aware that critiques suck, but are necessary. Now that I've said that. Here's what I want my magic systems to do on a universal boundary. - Spells should be structured individually. Some spells could get better with time, and that would be a perfectly reasonable expenditure of points. It doesn't happen in d20, but I'm not trying to do d20, I'm working within HERO. If a spell starts off as a 1d6 EB with Autofire and targets a Hex, and the player wants to: a) Change the damage Change the range c) Mod the autofire I don't see why he shouldn't be able to do that. It's anathema to my primary, AD&D based way of thinking, but I'm trying to actively think in terms of HERO, which suggests that points be points, and how they're spent is on the player. So I want to leave that unlocked. A spell's starting structure doesn't have to be its final structure. This is important, and one of the 'new' paths of thinking I'm adopting. - All spells should, initially, require Incant, Gestures, and an OAF (even if it's something simple, like a lump of coal). HERO already builds in better point costs based on difficulty of the OAF, which is perfect. I'm with that. - I like RSR, but I want magic to be somewhat reliable, so while HERO generally suggests using it, I was going to leave it open as an option. I was also considering having it for all spells "5th Level" and higher (on the surface, anything with an Active Cost of >50). I'm still considering this, but it makes sense. Higher level magic is just harder to use. - Subset to RSR; I also considered using RSR, but only applying it to spells that are twice the PCs current applicable skill level. If you have a skill of 8, you don't have to roll for anything with an Active Cost of 40 or less, but this is more complicated than I want to be. I'm listing it here as an example of things I've considered, and unless I did something really clever, will likely discard rather than keep. - I like the idea of Metamagic feats (I thought it was one of the more clever things that they've done) although some will never apply. I want the option open to the PCs. While the cost would be immediately higher, it allows them to retain their spell at its original build if they so desire. However, if they want to make a "permanent" silent spell, that's easy enough. Spend the points, poof. - Faith Based casters (specifically Clerics) should be able to dump out a prepared spell and sub in a Healing spell. Again, I want to keep it because it makes sense to me, rather than any sort of association with d20. I may also allow them to spontaneously cast domain spells as well. - I want a limit on how often Wizards can cast, and a much higher limit for Sorcerors. I'd like Priests to be somewhere in between. I've also considered using ECs for Sorcerors, but admittedly don't know enough about how they work yet. - I do want people to research and design new spells. - I do need a better understanding of the three framework designs; what are the key differences between a VPP & a Multipower? I'll have reread the text by tomorrow morning, but basic guidelines will be good. So there's some basics. Thoughts?

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System Chris Goodwin: Good afternoon, and thanks for the starting input. The piece to the puzzle you're missing is here, I'm commenting specifically on Killer Shrike's build of Vancian magic, so in that sense, yes, I'm still confused on the idea of VPP. So we'll do this. I'm going to "repeat" what you've said in my own language, and if I still don't get it, we'll play again. Each time hoping to refine it until the wheels all click into place. What you're saying is this: The VPP is set, for the sake of round numbers, at 100 points. Each power within said VPP maxes out at 100 points; that's the most a single power can have at any given time. My understanding of a Multipower is such that so long as it consumes a Flexible slot, or an Ultra slot with less than the max points available in the Multipower, you can use multiple abilities so long as: a) You have the points available to distribute (Flight, EB, Force Field) You can pay the END for each ability, whether that round or as continuing cost. What you're saying is that in a VPP, you can't have more Real Points than you have points in the VPP - whether it's broken down from Charges (1), Gestures, Incantations, OAF, etc. What Killer Shrike seems to be suggestion, and the reason my post seems so convoluted, is: - Each spell is built with a Charge, and you can mem, or prep, that spell (as it seems to me) individually as many times as you like, up to 3x the total VPP. Thus recreating a prep-spell system within HERO, and the VPP, instead of reassigning on the fly (as a Sorceror does, or uses a Multipower to do) can only be restructured after 8 hours of rest. - What I think you're saying about VPPs is this: the total amount of points you can have in the VPP is the summed Real Cost of all powers (say, spells) within the frame work. What I need is the ability to learn multiple spells, which could easily ignore the initial limit, without forcing the player to expand the VPP, except for purposes of raising the limit of the power of the spells known. - Hence, my initial stab at this was to have players purchase spells individually, at 1/3rd the cost (per Grimoire) and have an END reserve which represented their total power pool. They can then choose to either pump the END reserve (thus gaining the ability to cast more often) or purchase new spells (gaining in flexibility). - RSR is a concept I like, but may not work for this campaign. Magic is reliable, but I still it to be more limited. Forcing an RSR, then a skill roll, may be great for Sorcerors (as they're drawing on a skill, effectively) but not so much for Wizards (ironically, the inverse reasoning every one else is using, but hey, I'm different). There are multiple ways to go about doing this, so I'm still mucking about with options. I can say, though, that I've certainly started a vast number of subset discussions while searching for a solution, and this has been extremely enlightening thus far.

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System I'm also considering dumping RSR and going without it, but haven't made that determination yet. I like the idea of magic being unreliable; it appeals to me, although I see the point of what you're saying, I am in fact trying to branch out and do something different with the magic system. That's where the concept for the END reserve came from; a set pool on which to draw. I do understand (better, with some help, thanks to both Killer Shrike and ghost-angel for the enhanced definition) the VPP concept, but need to reread my textbook a bit. I spent most of the holiday reading it & fantasy HERO, and I can honestly say I haven't done that much reading at a clip since high school. It was a lot of information to absorb, but that's why I'm here talkin' to y'all. ;-) I grep that point costs are an important point, and if I were to assign an END reserve as part of the VPP, the mechanics of doing it would possibly make it redundant comared to KS's simpler structure of VPP x3. So how do you keep Sorceror's in check in comparison? The concept of 'Spontaneous Caster' works very easily in HERO, and I have considered simply making Sorcery a Multipower that costs END to use. Faith I can work similarly to Wizardry, that's not a big deal, and whether someone takes Turn Undead is on them. I'm just going to give everyone Head Explody and see what happens (kidding, kidding). There's a lot of food for thought here, but I also noticed a lot of outright dismissal; is there a specific reason? If I'm going around my ankles to get to my ears that's one thing, but some full on critique in terms of mechanics would also help tremendously.

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System I read through it, but I don't grasp how you're applying charges to the spell system. I grep the following: - You're using a VPP, which is confusing (to me) because I thought the purpose of a VPP was to act as a 'naked pool' from which a PC can simply cough up an effect, so it sounds more like you're describing a Multipower than a VPP (again, which is my ignorance, so an in-depth explanation would be helpful). - You're also using Charges, and I can grasp the simple concept "This spell is built on model X, which removes the END cost and replaces it with a single Charge." So building every spell under a Charge model, can I also assume that the VPP/Limit (x3, per your site) is inherent to that model? i.e., "Your total VPP is 80, so you can mem 240 Real Points worth of spells, and each spell consumes it's own individual charge." Did I read that correctly? If I did, then I really need to know how the VPP works in terms of cost, and how costs are figured for casters as a whole, because it sounds prohibitively expensive. Medic!

Re: The First Hurdle: Creating a *gulp* Magic System Which I've considered doing, and Chris (the HERO Guru) agrees with you on the point of not forcing Wizards to mem spells, but to me that's their whole schtick; they get more spells, but have some limits. Sorcerors, conversely, I agree with you; I can ditch the RSR (which makes spells more expensive) but they cast any spell they know out of their END reserve without any consideration for training; it's just what they do. It's also why I liked the idea of an EC for them, and why I want to let Sorcerors Push their END as necessary. And I may be thick headed (happens) but keeping Wizards controlled (even arbitrarily) is a mechanic that I'm just more comfortable with. However, they have the option, at any time, of sitting down, dumping the END they used earlier during the mem period, and memorizing a new spell. The limit isn't there to keep them from doing different things; they can even leave their END untapped. In fact, I may even allow them to cast spells directly from their book, although that would change things slightly (it becomes a Full Phase, but confers no bonuses to the END requirement). I think I might like that, actually. I can certainly envision Magic Missile being a 1d6 EB with autofire at first level that targets hexes; that actually makes total sense to me. And, at last, it would be appropriately expensive. This would also give the PC the option of improving the spell without crafting a new one. While 1d6 EB is pretty much meaningless, firing it five times would be the counter balance, if you can hit every time. Also, using the END reserve to force Wizards to mem gives them good reason to buy up the END reserve early on, and that's fairly cheap (1:10). A PC would purchase "Spell Craft" as a skill, 9 + INT/5 for Wizards (EGO for Priests). If they have a nice straightforward INT of 20, that gives them a base score of 13. They roll under that, and add applicable modifiers based on the Active Point Cost of the spell, correct? So in order to cast, RSR says: 13 -3 (for a 30 pt. APC) means they need to roll 10 or less, or the spell fails, correct?

Good morning! I figured this is a new topic, so I'd start a new thread. There are a number of things I want to accomplish in HERO, part of which involve recreating the divide between Wizards & Sorcerors. Now before the whole "Dangit, Thia, stop recreating d20 and use HERO!" rants begin, I want to make it clear I am using HERO, and have ever intention of using HERO. There are things that I actually liked in d20 and want to retain for style & feel purposes, not because I'm simply attempting to gratuitously rebuild the system. Oh, and on the concept of Magic Missile: I'm going to go for a One Hex Accurate (DCV 3) build of the power, but I don't know how to divide the missle (or any multi-beam spell) across multiple targets. Suggestions? Do I add 'Rapid Fire' to the spell? The idea being that you can fire multiple missiles if you choose to improve the spell, but I don't know how to reflect that. So there's question one; not "How do I make a magic missile" but "How do I build a spell that gives the user multi-target capability?" I have a few basic ideas for the system that I want to employ. I've leafed through part of the Grimoire and it mentions that according to the Turakian Age, casters purchase spells at 1/3rd of their Real Cost to give Wizards large spell books. I'm not sure if that would be "unbalancing" or not, but it would certainly make CP for spells go farther. I've also considered building in a Multipower framework called "Spell Book" and letting the PC fill it as they like, waiving the initial cost of spells - i.e., if you purchase 40pts of "Spell Book" you would be awarded 40pts of Spells to fill said spell book; after that, you can either puchase spells as slots, or expand the Multipower, your choice. Second, Wizards need to mem spells. That's a straight up inarguable, although my local HERO guru argued with me, I'm pretty firm on the point. So I want Wizardry to work from an END reserve that only resets after 8 hours rest (simple enough). My mechanic for "memorizing" every morning is simply to have the Wizard pre-assign their END reserve. This is also an additional limit (maybe worth 1/4th) "Only usuable after being assigned to a slot." Sorcery there are a few ways to go about; specifically, they retain the ability to cast spontaneously. I've considered allowing ECs for Sorcerors (which fits with the campaign theme) but the EC is prohibitively expensive. However, it fits the concept of "thematic magic" perfectly. Also, Sorcerors also get an END reserve, but they can Push their END. If their reserve is tapped, they can use personal END (at x2 the cost) and burn themselves out. This is an option Wizards don't get (because they aren't the "source" of magic, their training is the source of magic). Faith based casting needs completely reworked, partially because it's very d20 driven now, and in HERO they're sacrificing a little bit of bang for flexibility. They'll get an END Reserve, they'll retain the ability to use END (x2 cost) and "dump a slot" - i.e., free up pre-assigned END - to cast a Heal spell and, if I can swing it, to cast a Domain spell as well. Thoughts? Ideas? I have a gabillion other things floating around (how to work Meta-Magic feats purchased outside of a framework, for example) and what have you, but I'll get into those questions later on. Although, for all the math junkies, I'll let you chew on this one: My Wizard has purchased Fireball, a 6d6 RKA with AOE 3". Fwackoom. He wants to alter the Range, but according to the system, the Spell itself is generally unalterable (see my question on Magic Missle and why it's a hassle). I want the caster to be able to purchase a Range Booster outside of the framework. We'll say that it always doubles the Range of a given spell it's applied too; whether AOE, Line, Cone, what have you. Increases range by one step. How would you work that in? That should give everyone some nice food for thought this morning. Good morning!

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO Curses! Thought it was, really. Mea culpa, and apologies to Lord Liaden. Now to build a Paladin class packet that works for me. And a spell system. That's the kicker. Gonna have a LOT of questions on Monday.

Re: Paladin help Looks good! I see a reference to Your Oath is Your Bond but I don't see it built into the structure. Renh?

It's been maybe a week and change since I originally opened up my 'Fixin' What's Broken" thread. In that time I've met a game designer, had extensive email conversations with Steve Long, bought over a half dozen books, and convinced six separate people that moving to HERO is the best option, rather than continually trying to fix d20. I can honestly say that not only am I actually excited about a book again - my copy of FREd came today, along with Combat & a pair of grimoires - but I've genuinely enjoyed discussing the game, mechanics and my initial ideas. I wholly expect to have nothing but more interesting things to add once I've read through all the books. All of you - Amadan na Briona, Killer Shrike (and his ten thousand pages of material), Steve, Susano, ghost-angel, i3ullseye, taxboy4, Alicetheowl, Beetle, mayapuppies (the first person who replied to me), Dale A. Ward - and I know I'm missing a bunch of folk - have really been fantastic in welcoming me to the community and getting my feet wet. So to all of you, and especially those I didn't specifically list here: Thank you, and Happy Thanksgiving!