Thia Halmades

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

Originally Posted by incrdbil

To unpetrifty a person, You could simply say that Healing, bought with the 'ressurect' adder could unpetrify somone. A 'Flesh to Stone' spell would be healing, bought with that modifier, and then with the limitation 'only on petrified people) at least a -1, maybe more.

Okay, that I grasped *gasp* "He can be taught!" I'm still utterly baffled as to how frame works and spell purchasing is going to work, but there's no point in me asking really in depth questions without copies of both H5thRev & FH in my lap and a lot of scratch paper available. I will ask this:

- We're slinging about a great deal of numbers to represent specific things. For example, Healing (Ressurect), Only Works on Stone (-1). Is that really such a big deal against simply buying the regular ability straight up? Another way to ask.

- Healing (Ressurection) costs X. How much more significant is X-1 when I can just buy one power and cure all problems for all time? Is this a GM call, or am I missing a key concept in RAW (Rules As Written)?

New question, same concept:

- I have a Cockatrice. I want my Cockatrice to be a big fat baby when it comes to combat; it can peck you, but the physical attack itself is a pittance compared to the Transform (or Killing Attack) damage dealt. The reason I specifically wanted to keep them separate was because it doesn't make sense (to me) to have it dealing both Flesh to Stone damage and physical damage, and have them both count against BODY.

- If I hit you with Flesh to Stone, and I deal 7 BODY, that isn't (IMO) the same as me hitting you with a stick for 1, 2, 5, 6 dice of Normal damage (14 STUN, 4 BODY). The two should be tracked separately, otherwise you've fallen over a long time ago, despite the fact when I swing, I'm dealing 2/d6 -2 damage (1).

Or (as asked prior) am I missing sum-sum?

Re: Creature: Big Head

Which isn't entirely dissimilar to d20; the only thing that'll throw is the way initiative is handled; there's no way for a character with two phases to change the phases they move on, short of holding action (click... click...) and then said group resets at the top of the next order.

So what I'm hearing is, similar to d20, on my turn I can either half-phase move, full-phase move, half-phase act (i.e., swing once) or full-phase act (auto fire, rapid fire, swing both blades, etc.)

Yes?

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

Originally Posted by Killer Shrike

That aside, you could also build a turn to stone attack as a straight up KILLING ATTACK with the SFX of turn target to stone. Its only useful as a Transform if turning them to stone doesnt actually kill them. A Stone To Flesh equivalent in the "Petrification as Killing Attack" model would be Healing w/ the Ressurect adder (another new feature in 5th Edition, though it was a common house rule in 4th), and Limited to Only vs Petrified People.

Pardon me.

What?

Gracias!

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

Susano: MOB stands for Mobile Object Beast, it's a holdover term from MUDs (Multi-User Dungeon) and is slang for monster or creature. It's used to represent anything that isn't a major PC or NPC. Golems, Cockatrice, Dragons, and worms that say 'allo! are all MOBs.

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

And in all honesty, I think I prefer it that way. It's hard to explain; I'm not, by any stretch of the imagination, a PKer. It just isn't how I do things. But, with that in mind, I do want a certain level of lethality; I want the players to go into combat scared, and d20 is scaled in an extremely bizarre way that makes balancing combat border on voodoo.

One of the big examples I like to use to illustrate the flaw in d20 goes something like this:

According to RAW, a group of 4 adventurers, of X level, can engage a creatures with a Challenge Rating (CR) of X, to challenge them, X+1, to threaten them, X+2, to endanger them, X+3, kill them, X+4. So a group of 3rd level characters should be able to engage a single 3 CR creature and consume 25% of their total resources (spells, HP, etc.). So far, so good. The system is theoretically scaled to support any special abilities that a MOB may have against the resources of the PCs. With me so far? Good.

A Cockatrice (p.15 - 16) is a standard CR 3 MOB from the Monster Manual. It's primary ability is to turn people to stone. It has a strong to-hit ratio, and about 28 HP. If it connects, the PC must make a DC 12 Fortitude saving throw or get turned into a rock. Translated, that's a 40% survival rate on a d20 check, straight up. Add in a Fortitude save (+1, roughly without going into class breakdowns) and you're at 45%. We'll be nice and grant a CON bonus of +1, even though for a lot of people it's a dump stat, so even 50%.

I have 6 3rd level party members, which makes two of these things a (theoretically) fair fight. If both swing, and both hit (odds of which are good to very good) I'm going to have a statue on my hands, because they gave a CR 3 MOB what we refer to as a Save or Die. In HERO, this doesn't happen without a massive expenditure of points to generate a Transform Killing attack (shape: Stone).

Under HERO, I can either make Transform the MOBs primary ability with a massive dice chuck (8d6, say, to deal double body on average to a commoner and guarantee the transform (24 avg. Body to a 10 Body normal), or the way I preferred to do it was a 2d6 Cumulative Transform, which would make the fight both terrifying, and fair.

I realize I'm tangenting, but this is one of the major examples of how d20 is just p*ssing me off, because it's not gauged in a way that makes logical sense. Yes, the PCs killed both MOBs, but the Paladin made a save by 2; any other character on that roll would've been stuck in a garden with a bird bath.

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

So that would be an Energy Resistance vs. Lightning then. Immunities are a no go, again, good to know. As I mentioned, I'm fighting my way (in a baby vs. bear sort of way... and the bear isn't being gentle) with the 4th Ed. CHAMPIONS book, and it's driving me vaguely batty. On the one hand I have the GM telling me that the changes from 4 to 5 are minimal, but I have to believe that there's some sort of improvement to the general formatting of the beast.

Energy Resistance can do just fine in lieu of an immunity, and I'm down with that. I also come from the SOT which says "The only absolute is that there are no absolutes." Which makes Magic Missile & Immunities an anomaly compared to how I think, but I'm so garf-barking used to them that it's difficult to get out of my head.

Killer Shrike - my concept of a 'class' structure is to give the PCs a launching off point, especially in terms of casting ability, knowledges and what have you. I've also been introduced to the idea of spells requiring either knowledge rolls to cast or hit rolls to connect, and those both seemed astonishingly spiffy to me. As I said prior, MM is a lame duck which was never put out of my misery. It's fantastic for CRPGs and group mosh games (D&D Heroes, etc.) but as a general rule, it's an over powered, under leveled spell. What was really entertaining is in d20/3.5 when they introduced Scorching Ray, which is even more absurd, and simply requires a to-hit roll assuming the target has only their dex mod & the grace of God on their side.

Yikes. Anyway.

I will look up Deadly Blow in my copy of 4th and see what it says. I'll also bear in mind that it stacks with the 'doubling rule.' So the Doubling Rule says I can never stack more STR than I have innate weapon damage dealing ability? Mui importante, muchos gracias. That will help keep things under control. Y'all also aren't the first folk who've said that the RAW naturally controls damage dealt and lethality; I'm nervy about it, but I'll take the blind leap of faith required.

Re: Creature: Big Head

Thanks, Michael. It's sincerely appreciated. There are really two core things I need to do right now. Those are:

- Learn the full build mechanics and options. I want to do templates (package deals) for my major archetypes, such as Undead & Demons, and I'll learn that best by sitting down and doing it myself. Then, once I've built it, I'll have a clear idea of how it fights mechanically and can use that information to generate my first combat. I will, however, be making use of some of your monsters for immediate reference for my initial test-fights with the local CHAMPIONS GM.

- Start grasping what all a character can do. For example; you can take a double move, and it seems that you can replace a move with a (d20) move equivalent; get a potion, draw a weapon, etc. But there's no way to make two attacks in a given segment, that I can see (double attack action). Also, are there rules for two weapon fighting? I'd assume there are, but haven't seen them yet.

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

So the argument is that so long as its an OIF and can be removed, then it shouldn't cost points. That points are things that are built into the character, like brick into mortar. Ne'er shall the twain be split. Mui importante, gracias! If I were to create a "+2 Longsword" (to remain consistent) would that equate to:

+2 OCV (this weapon only, OIF) and +2 Body? Would that be overpowered, should I just give it Extra Stun (1/4)? Would the +2 BODY stack with the STUN roll (I'm assuming yes). I'm asking because I don't fully grep all the rules yet, or how much Body a Fantasy Hero should end up with. I know that Fantasy Hero is going to be pretty brutal, combat wise, especially because everyone is swinging for Killing Damage, although I've also heard the argument that HERO is less lethal, which I don't really understand. Specifically:

Your average Fighter is going to be swinging with a 15 STR. We'll say a Greatsword deals 1d6+1/2 HKA, which stacks to 2d6 1/2 HKA. I roll straight killing damage (avg. 8 BODY) and come close to killing me a commoner who is likely not wearing resistant armor, and if not dead, they're almost guaranteed to be unconcious (28 avg. STUN) and dead from a Coup de Grace on the next segment.

Warning: Newbie shorthand follows. Now we make our Fighter a Demon. We'll make it a sneaky demon. We'll make it a sneaky demon with a 20 STR and a 30 DEX, immunity to all sorts of things (poison, lightning, possibly limited transform), and Sneak Attack (2d6 HKA, only works from behind, must be an edged weapon, target must be distracted/unaware, must be within 6" if used at range, prereq for Range usage: Point Blank Shot, linked to normal attack). And he uses a short sword (1d6 HKA) and gets the drop on the target. Unless the hero has resistant armor, he's looking at ... 5d6 1/3 HKA, averaging 16 BODY and 56 STUN, if I did my math right.

That, to me, is extremely lethal. Now, granted, odds are good my heroes will have resistant armor (hardened leather, plate, etc.) but I haven't play tested the system enough to know whether or not this is going to end someone outright. I'm not saying I'm not willing to drop a PC if the dice dictate it, I'm saying I don't want the fight to be unfair.

Thoughts?

Re: Creature: Big Head

Oh, hey, deisel. AH, I see you posted twice (glad I double-checked). Bestiary. Curses! Well, I'll pick it up in short order, I'm sure. It isn't like I don't already have $2,500+ worth of books sitting on my shelves now, and that's a rounded figure. Another $100 on HERO material isn't going to make a big difference. Steve had said I only really needed HERO 5th & Fantasy HERO, but I picked up the combat handbook for convenience sake. Too many mosh battles and what have you, and if there's one thing I'm absolutely, positively sick of it's the staccato nature of D&D combat.

For 20+ years it's been 'Swing... hit... damage... next." HERO offers all sorts of training, packages, martial packages, combat manuevers (A Paladin with a full blown Greatsword Combat Package? Already drooling just thinking about that one). I'm going to have an extensive list of questions once I finally sit down to work it out. I have a copy of CHAMPIONS 4th, which I'm told is mechanically very similar, but I'm having difficulty envisioning what I want to do under the book as its written. I've grepped a lot of the rules, i.e., how things generally work, but there are vast swaths of material I think I'm missing.

Of course, I'm one of those people who only learn by doing. Figures.

Re: Creature: Big Head

I'm glad I tripped over this thread, if for no other reason than the basic creature construction. Susano, you list Gaping Maw as an ability, and it has a respectable (6d6/2d6 HKA) STR score. In D&D, there's an ability called Swallow Whole, which does exactly what you're describing here; you grab the poor slob and pound him down, so long as he's at least two size categories smaller than you (rarely only one, never the same size). Is that an ability you can replicate here? It's an odd question, but are there rules for being digested and then spit out again? Can a PC fight their way out?

This is an extremely cool MOB, and it may very well get stol... er... borrowed for my Ravenloft campaign.

Good morning!

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

Good heavens.

First, thanks for all the (initial) feedback. I have a player in the campaign now who... how to say... likes to abuse rules until they go home cryin' to momma. The same player who attempted to take Flight and then assign it the disadvantage: doesn't work underwater. You get the idea.

I see what everyone is saying about "not playing D&D in HERO, but making HERO recreate what I want," and I can get behind that, I really can. But my mentality is such that I like at least having a grounding point for people to spring board from. Because I'm using a closed magic system (again, as much by preference as to any options I have) that's going to be a major factor in my decision as to how to set up the Spell Casting option.

Because I intend to have people package in their Class & Race combo, after that the limits are pretty much out there for them to seize. I run a fairly skill heavy game, so I'll have to spend some time determining what I can expect from the PCs, their dice, etc. Besides, giving them all 125 pts. & a pair of package deals will actually save them points in the long run, since the packages themselves are self-contained circuits. The other beauty of the package system is, as I mentioned before, it allows me to build specific prestige classes that represent mile stones in a characters career.

"You've graduated from the academy! Take the PrC "Order of the Silver Crescent" and add it to your template!" I can't do that in D&D. I wanted to. Believe it. But it was literally impossible to:

a) Find what I wanted, which would've been a 5 lvl PRC (or a set of them) that accounted for the major roles in an OSC squad (OSC is the name of an organization in my HB campaign).

Build what I wanted, as dey ain't no rules for that, thar ma'am. Nosireebob, they ain't. Y'all just gonna have to wing it. Well, that bird don't fly, if you get what I'm saying. Guaranteeing balance is nigh impossible.

c) Play Frankenstein with the PrCs until I'd pieced together what I wanted, that didn't look too much like a base class or wasn't seemingly balanced against everything else. The amount of work required to do that grossly outweighed the benefits of having done it. The process wasn't mathematical, nor was it intuitive, so I couldn't emote my way through it, nor reason through it, and any middle ground was gone as I racked my brain trying to balance the whole mess.

There are things in D&D that smack of 20th century gaming. MM is one of them, as is "Wish." 20 years later everyone is still arguing over the Paladin build. With HERO I can have all different kinds of Paladins, depending on how they wanted to handle their builds. Pally A wants to be a Healer, first & foremost. They buy up their LOH & Divine Casting ability. From my understanding, in HERO they can do that. No such animal exists in d20. Pally wanna smackdown? You can do that instead. You can balance it all out. What this does is give my PCs flexibility & options, two things they sorely lack in d20.

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

Which is why people still look at me funny and call me a nerd. It's not that our hobby has a bad rap; it's that unless you're being indoctrinated by someone who already owns a secret decoder ring, it doesn't make any bloody sense. That's part & parcel of the "entry level" game argument. If there is one, it's D&D, if for no other reason than all the work is done for you.

HERO is comparatively clean to some of what y'all have described; I played MegaTraveler on my 386 back in the day-day, and I recall character gen (and the hexadecimal math system... and the general bugs that left me with millions in credits for no good reason, but replaced my best weapons...) being one of the many reasons I didn't finish it. I remember really liking it but it being really broken.

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

Killer Shrike: first, my sincere gratitude for posting what you have to your site, and I've already begun the basic perusal of it. I'm genuinely excited about embarking on what is basically a grand adventure in DMing, going from a flawed system based on good ideas to a sound system based on good ideas. Funny how the two flow together.

Lucius: I can handle a Magic Missile that costs a few extra points because it never misses; it's considered one of the great flaws of d20 anyway; a hold over spell that's overpowered for its level, and possibly one of the only first level spells that retains its utility into higher levels. Ghosts? POP. Demon? POP. Your next door neighbor through the open window? POP *Crash!* Oh, my, look at the time...

Dale: If you lived in VA I might've been able to help you out, I'm going to be looking for a 5th player for my primary campaign anyway as one of them is cr*pping out on me. The prat.

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

It isn't that I'm maligning D&D - I'm not, really, any more than I'm maligning d20. But I'm in a position where I'm forced to admit that there are things that I want to do as a 'grown up' gamer that d20 doesn't account for. Anywhere. At all. Even glancing through 4th Ed. CHAMPIONS it's appallingly obvious that they've done multiple mechanics better than d20 does them, without all the counter-intuitive math.

To be fair, it's not so much that I'm looking to "reinvent" D&D in HERO - it's... I know what I mean, just looking for a way to say it that isn't inverse. There's a definate look and feel I'm shooting for, which is integral to fantasy gaming. Class/Race packages are a major part of that, those have to stay in. D&D introduced the concept of a Prestige Class which is pretty diesel, but if you work with it long enough, you realize two things:

- You're spending more time waiting for supplments than actually building anything, or forwarding your plot and, b.,

- The supplements you buy are 90% filler and 10% killer. Other than a few key PrCs and what have you, your options done be shot in the foot, thar, ma'am. And I'm tired of spending money on supplements that aren't doing what I want. Anymore than they provide what I tangibly need, which is a key system that allows me to build whatever I barking well please.

And that's when I said "Wait... what was it called...? Champions or something?" And thus my quest began. Over the course of my next two gabillion threads I'll go over other details as I go to fix key things that were broken in the first place. It isn't just a system redesign, it's flexibility and tangible options none of my PCs have at the moment.

Re: Healing/Regeneration power build

My concept for the phylactery was very Purloined Letter. I don't know if it would be so bizarre as "a desk" or "a chair" but something which is generally absurdly obvious. A fireplace that was built OVER the phylactery itself, or the ashes themselves being the ashes of our former (yet still operational) villain. That's all much later in the campaign, right now they're clearing out the dungeon full o'ghouls.

"Coffee? It's from a new company, 'Chock Full o'Ghouls!' It'll scare the life outta ya!"

I also need to put an undead template together; various resistances and immunities, with some disads. I was considering: No natural healing, always detectable (N-Ray variant/Detect Variant - Undead, Evil) and other bits. I need my books (!!) first before I can cough up an workable build. I'm on the rules boards now to both a) suggest things that make sense regardless of system and learn the system by (gasp!) asking questions.

Re: Quantum Leaping

Further thoughts:

A VPP for skills based on being able to modify the "master" group (8 pt) for a series of things, say, sciences. The balance would likely come from having to use all of those skills raw, like a powers set, with the limit "only knows skills applicable to current form (-1)." This would make owning the power as a set cheaper, without hamstringing the character build as a whole.

Re: Quantum Leaping

IDR if he was able to 'hit a ball' or 'fly a plane' in the same fashion as the body he jumped too. The bulk of what I remember from the series was a holograph telling him a bunch of really scientific sounding bits about when he had to go, and what he had to do to change history.

Is there a Variable Skill Power that could be designed? Then the GM could assign abilities as necessary to the character, while leaving certain pieces of the PC's memory "intact." Something similar to Cabal?

Re: Healing/Regeneration power build

*waves n00b flag*

Wow, I'm impressed I followed that at all. I see the elegance implied in simply 'summoning' a new you and being ready to go to town. I grasp there's no END cost (and even if there were, how would that work?)

Would someone break down the final cost of that? I'm asking because since I plan on running Fantasy HERO, Liches have a [sarcasm] lovely [/sarcasm] habit of being able to come back from the dead so long as their phylactery is intact. I grasp some of what's going on, but not all of it. I know the Phylactery is an OIF (is there a non-obvious independent focus?) but getting to it is difficult. Would 'summoning' a new Lich be an equitable solution there as well?

Re: Chronicles of Gor

It's always better to have your fighting skills polished, regardless. One of the great advantages of combat LARP: possibly the only exercise I don't balk at doing, because it involves wacking people over the skull. The closest I've come to BDSM fantasy lit is the agiel from Goodkind's Wizard's First Rule, possibly one of the worst written, but somehow engrossing books I've ever read. Never rationalized that one properly.

~DEM

Re: Fixin' what's broken - switching from d20 to HERO

That's a great start, actually! I'm flipping through it now, so this is a great start. The conversion set up alone is worth it, along with his explanation of how to keep people from double-dipping, and how a package deal actually works (internal usage of disads which don't count against PC final build).

That's a first step! Thanks mayapuppies.

Good afternoon;

I'm not sure how broad or narrow y'all want to answer this question, so I'll just sort of open it up and leave it on the table, with the option of posting new threads and questions in the future.

Simply put: d20 is broken. Specifically, it's broken because the attempts at keeping it simple have resulted in a system so convoluted that there's no longer an inherent balance from one thing to the next; it's very difficult to build a new thing, because the things that are out there are designed more on a whim than on any written convention. By opting to flip to HERO, I can guarantee a control of powers, abilities, and structures within a low-magic campaign setting which is building towards a planes war, where the Prime Material is simply the Battleground, not the prize. Considering that everyone in these stories usually wants to claim the PMP, one of the things I had intended to do different was adjust that particular cliche.

I'm (at long last) awaiting my copies of HERO 5th, Fantasy Hero, and the Combat Book, because I wanted it. Besides, otherwise I wouldn't've had three books, and I'd've felt I was missing something. As I learn more of what the system can do, I'll make the requisite changes and purchase supplemental material. With that background, here are some basic questions I'm hoping y'all can help me with.

- Have any of you made the same flip, from d20 to HERO? Do you find merits in both systems? Can HERO really recreate anything that I can do in d20, but better and more balanced?

- This is written as a low magic campaign; I'm looking for suggestions on how to keep players in check. I need to put together builds for all the major classes (I had a link to the classes which was pretty sweet, from the board listed here) and I'm already starting to get a feel for how that works. What are some resources/suggestions for keeping the correct flavor?

- How do y'all work currency? If the players find a +2 Longsword, do they pay for it? What would "+2" mean in HERO? Obviously there's a lot more room to define & design objects, so part of me is certain that ye olde +2 longsword will be no more; but I might make a Longsword that grants itself a +2 OCV and deals +2 Killing Damage. Would I achieve the same effect?

I'll start there and get some input. Thanks in advance for the help.

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

Agreed, there's the nice, generic Freudian explanation. There's also the 'sense of closure' explanation. And, also mentioned (and I only read page 1) the 'they fit on graph paper' explanation. Ultimately we land underground because it's a closed circuit; like its own story arc, there's a beginning, middle & end. We can include NPCs down there, we can forward the story down there, we can force a new character gen by popping someone down there. Multiple options exist 'down there' that don't exist 'up here.' Yay Freud.

Where was I? Oh yes. Dungeons. On whether you should or shouldn't play it/enjoy it; the first post specifically made mention that if you don't groove it, that's totally cool. I myself don't groove on that, but that's because my schtick is telling stories. Knowing my audience means that sometimes my stories involve mass combats that threaten their lives, so they wind up improving via XP not because I set them up to earn XP, but because I set them up to possibly get killed; the XP is a result of survival. ;-)

I'm also a big proponent of "I get my dungeon hack via my Xbox" - because I'm here to tell a story, or a collection of sub stories, collected under an over-arc. I'm in the process of determining if moving from d20 to Champions is going to be worth it, or even viable. I'm waiting for my copies of HERO 5th (Rev) & Fantasy Hero now. I understand the frustration - the mind numbing, die rolling, "Why am I in this dungeon?" frustration that comes with playing the munchkins. Doesn't mean their game doesn't entertain them, though. If you haven't actually sat down & tried it, you might want to some time. There're worse ways to spend an evening.

~DEM