Thia Halmades

1 hour ago, Simon said:

 

If you're after something different, then you build from effect.  Define how it works within the mechanics of the system and then take the appropriate Modifiers.  Maybe Trigger, maybe Linked, maybe Damage Shield, maybe some combination of them -- it's all about what you're after, which after multiple pages of text that you've posted is still unclear.

TL;DR — Reason from Effect. Because one is a trigger, that can give you multiple free actions, and the other is a limitation, that only works under specific circumstances in cooperation with another power. Whether that use case can be turned to appear as an advantage is, from a HERO perspective, a coincidental aside, more of a “Hey, Thia, look at this build.” “Wow, that’s weird. But it’s legal and it works.” That’s not the question we are going to answer, because it’s not a ‘question’ in HERO. It’s a cloud over your actual question:

“What are the optimal use cases for these for Trigger and Linked, since I’m seeing them as very similar.”

Maybe we didn’t make it clear that is the question we read (not to speak for Simon, but I think I’m on solid ground here), and it’s the question we answered, and you replied: “‘Well it depends on the type of power you’re making.’ That’s hardly helpful for anyone.” You then stated you were confused over a fundamental misunderstanding of Trigger’s common use cases, and that’s why I changed things up and gave you other examples, but you still seem to be distressed and accused me/Simon/us of obfuscating the issue.

We’re not. We’re just thinking in HERO terms, asking “What is it you want to do” then breaking down the best way mechanically to represent it. Simon pointed out that our understanding of the rules and how you framed the question carried certain implicit assumptions, and that includes accepting sometimes the system can seem to do odd things. Which is what I’m getting at:

We did answer your question. In various ways, and the answer was, at least on my side, “I see what you see but, because it’s happening in a vacuum of possibility, isn’t providing a full picture. Explain to me what you want a power to do, and I’ll be able to show you how these things operate in practice,” which gave rise to my Desolid/Linked Invisibility build. I get punched too hard, I vanish. POOF. And to your post, the bit you italicized, I explicitly demonstrated why they were different modifiers. Because I can’t turn invisible unless I get punched super hard. That makes it a limitation.

Trigger can give you multiple free actions, and the other is a limitation, that only works under specific circumstances in cooperation with another power. Whether that use case can be turned to appear as an advantage is, from a HERO perspective, irrelevant. The question we are always looking to answer is, “What effect am I going for,” and “is it built in a functional and reasonable way that does what I want?” 

And so. You then posted, above, that you would explain the power in question for our further edification and enlightenment, but you would be unnecessarily verbose. Verily, ‘tis your wont, but lo, I doubt you could add further complication to your already salubrious musings, of which I still read every word, down to the very humble comma, in the finest detail.

Yes. I’m having a go. Post the idea and maybe we can show you some build options and put this to bed.

Then, we can look at that power, and reason from effect.

I say this without rancor or sarcasm:

You’ve lost me.

If I can help, let me know. I want to help, and I thought I had helped, clearly I did not. If I can help with this question in the future, you know. Holla.

On 9/14/2020 at 1:19 PM, Crusty said:

Hello Thia. These are more nuance questions. The Fifth ed 5 point Aid adder for increasing effect confused me but tombrown squared that up. And Growth and density increase always on were removed in 6. Now they’re complications. 
 

right now he’s being built as a multi form (this isn’t for play btw. Its a build to dial in the hulk the way I see him. Nothing is written in stone) so OIAID doesn’t apply, although that may change

 

it's the relationship between anger and STR I’m trying to simulate without tying it to combat facing situations like enraged or berserk 

Crusty, I’m slightly rusty. Your answer is Trigger, does not control activation of personal trigger, whenever she gets properly pissed off. Then set it as a psych lim. Remember that enraged doesn’t necessarily mean “throws plates at walls,” it can be any heightened emotional state. This is going to require some cooperation to make it look & feel right, but I would place the weight on the psych complications and make sure the character’s personality is well defined. It can be down purely to role playing, with the GM being trusted to highlight moments they think are appropriate for the transform.

Hope that helps!

Nah. I wear the helmet because I kept losing my sunglasses.

Holy rabbit holes, Batman!

What?

These rabbits. They dig holes. All over the yard.

Massey kind of nailed this, actually, and you have caught onto the gist of it; a power, in a very real sense, “is” its special effect. When we talk about reason from effect, this is precisely what we mean. If it gives your ego a boost, and I hope it does, when I built my dragon transformer, I did it in the exact same way you did. Bought a bunch of growth, flight, and he can shoot lasers from his mouth (I based him on the “race” of Bahamut from FF VII). When those powers activate as a suite, he turned into a dragon. I bought Striking Appearance: Dragon (OIAID, -1/4) to help his PRE attacks, but that was it. Because Shapeshift would be a waste of points, he’s not a shape shifter. He turns into a dragon. He could have been Godzilla, the Hulk, an orange dude in blue underwear made outta rocks (...the underwear, super chafing). 

Your second question is “fire blast?” Correct. You purchase EB and define the special effect at that time. Per 6E1:

The special effects of a Power define how it 
works, what it looks like, and any other inci-
dental effects associated with it. Sometimes a 
Power receives minor benefits and drawbacks 
because of its special effects. These minor modi-
fiers don’t change the cost of the Power, but if 
the special effect provides a major benefit, you 
have to pay Character Points for that to buy an 
Advantage (6E1, Chapter Six)

So your blast is “fire.” It behaves like fire at no additional cost. Your blast is magic, but the setting says “all magic attacks are inherently armor piercing,” so by saying “this is magic” you also must, per the campaign, purchase Armor Piercing. The excellent 5th Edition Ultimate Energy Projector is both a treasure trove of options and a positive nightmare if you approach with the “poor lost souls” mentality. 

Yawns, reads. Takes another sip of coffee. Re-reads. Cracks knuckles.

Okay. I see the disconnect. In this post I’m going to try and address the confusion, rather than dive into rules citations. The following appears to be true based on what I’m reading thus far:

Sveta8, you seem to be trying to fully understand both how Trigger works, and, (apologies if I’m not precisely spot on here) why Linked is a Limitation, as opposed to a subset of Trigger, which is an advantage. For the sake of discussion, we’re agreeing that all definitions and examples provided by Simon are correct, but. You appear to be really stuck on “Why is Linked (a Limitation) a thing, since it can be perceived in limited circumstances as an Advantage?”

The answer is, mechanically, because Linked takes the activation almost entirely out of a player’s hands:

5 hours ago, Sveta8 said:

Drawn from the text for Linked Power: Lesser power is linked to Greater power; character can use Greater power without using Lesser power, but can only use Lesser power if he uses Greater power, character must use Lesser power in proportion to Greater power.

The key word here is “must.” For example, in a Trigger scenario, I transform into mist whenever I take over half my BODY in a single shot — I become Desolid as a special effect. Linked to that is Invisibility. The “greater” power, the one on the trigger, is the Desolid. The lesser power is invisibility. Because I have Invisibility linked, I have no access to it at all. It only goes off when Greater Power goes off. If we steer away from the common attack examples, and start looking at other ways Trigger and Linked might affect combat and outcomes, its existence as a limitation becomes much clearer.

To go slightly further, let’s dive into Trigger for a second, one of my all-time favorite Advantages. For a +1/2, I can make the Trigger anything for each use, including, literally, snapping my fingers as “an action that takes no time.” (+1/4). In addition, I can set two (or three) trigger conditions. Snap my fingers, or, fall down the stairs. Either one activates the power in question. This is the crux of what Simon was driving at; the amount of control you have over a Trigger is nearly limitless, while Linked ties a power off and locks the player out of activating it “unless.”

Going back to Fantasy HERO and the Flash Punch Troll, he could very well purchase Flash as Linked to a Hand-to-Hand attack called “I Punched His Lights Out.” Flash 6d6, Trigger, whenever I punch someone and roll 50 STUN, Linked (HTH Attack). Meaning, I cannot use the Flash without first having punched someone AND met the trigger condition. However, if I remove linked, and alter my trigger to “Or I slap them really hard, like I mean it,” I get much broader access. 

Are those examples helping to highlight the difference?

I think this question is better suited for the forums, as this isn’t a rules question per se, but more about errata. I would agree (without referencing Champions or seeing the build you’ve referenced) that based on your description, the printed build may contain errors, and I can independently confirm that what you built is sound. 

Remember, it isn’t about “right” and “wrong” but more “accurate & valid” vs “needs work.”

Nice build there, by the way.

Ah, good question. The answer is, in short:

”WhyIoughta...” <Rata-tat-tat!>

*kzzzzzK*

*thud*

*thud*

Autofire goes off per the attack and the player resolves. Remember that in the rules, there’s no lag from shot A to shot B, it’s all special effects, and moreover, AF is an Advantage. That’s a big thing, this is a traditional “get what you pay for” scenario. Paid for full auto fists, get full auto fists.

But Damage McShieldy paid for Damage Shield. Resolve AF normally, then once “the attack” is completed, again, it’s a single attack that’s got an Advantage on it — resolve defenses normally. Et voila. Roast beef.

Two things.

Size is relative. Yep, it’s more work when it comes up, meaning, most of the time, you’re fighting human or larger opponents and the halfling gets all applicable bonuses, but should they encounter something their own size, zip. Those are gone. Yes, to reiterate, more work, but it’s work you can easily prep for and honestly makes way, way more sense.

Second. This is HERO. There’s a whole cereal box full of nothing but really weird tattoos of how to do things, including giving all halflings a super skill/special ability/power that lets them cloak out. However, it may be far easier to say “All halflings by their nature have stealth.” And done. Because I’ve never, ever, seen one without it. Even their barbarians have stealth for heaven’s sakes.

I have something to add here.

That answer was freakin’ epic. *slow clap* @mallet Bloody good show.

Get it? Vampire? Bloody? Because they drink blood? Amirite? Guys?

Where are you going?

Hey wait up!!

Moving on!

If I’m understanding the rule right, upon summon you get assignable tasks based on EGO, your Necromancer can purchase EGO, Only to Assign Tasks to Summoned Creatures, (-1). Why -1? Because he’s going to use it freaking constantly. As an aside to that aside, I generally don’t allow purchasing of stats over and above beyond 2x the base; so in a world of NCM, where they bought to 20, I’m going to keep the total possible at 40. One thing I learned early in HERO — you must set limits. Because players be like ‘wooooo!’ And you have to be all ‘noooooooo. Seriously, Chris, no, you cannot do that. Because it’ll break the game, that’s why. No, we’re not going to test it. Dude, seriously...”

(actual conversation, actually held multiple times).

(with the same freakin’ guy).

5 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Oh no the NCM rabbit hole! Run away!

 Dive! Dive! Dive!

That would be interesting, actually, a Flash > Trigger > Massive Damage.

”I Literally Punched That Guy’s Lights Out,” Flash/Sight 6d6, Trigger, roll damage equal to or greater than 50 STUN, Linked: HTH attack, Attack must be Type: Blunt (-1/4), 0 END (+1/2(?)), Area of Effect: One Hex/Single Target.

That build is probably wobbly and needs tweaked, but the idea is perfectly sound. More importantly. I giggled. Hadn’t thought of that one before. Mechanically representing punching someone so hard they temporarily see stars. God —- I love this game.

I had some spare points, so I bought some campaign appropriate psychic abilities. Low grade telepathy (No Conscious Control), Precognition (...No Conscious Control) and so on. When it works, it’s always right, but it never, ever, works on demand.

Deep down, I like the idea of a Descent: Freespace meets MechWarrior vibe;

It’s after the war. Mankind has been busy rebuilding. Despite what we expected, we didn’t get bombed back to the Stone Age, but the deconstruction of super powers gave rise to new leadership, focused heavily on science and the technological advancements required to save our planet. The mechs started as more efficient excavation machines, drilling, moving earth, lifting heavy objects. That sort of thing. It wasn’t long, though, before patterns re-emerged. Market leaders were approached by new governments who wanted to “protect themselves” against non-existent threats; threats that arose because they armed. And here we are, again. That was 200 years ago.

Me? I’m a humble mechanic. Then one of my pilots got sprayed all over the inside of his machine by a microwave gun because his shielding wasn’t maintained right. A problem I had logged a half dozen times but was told “Hey, how often do they bring those things out? They’re not going to melt anybody.” Yeah...

So they cleaned out the cockpit and say “Jackie! You know this beast better than any of us!” I blinked and pointed out that doing VR sims based on current telemetry, while it’s fun to post high scores, is really a diagnostic tool so we can figure out what’s going to happen or what may have gone wrong or where repairs are needed by simulating stress on the machine. Nope. “Girl, you’ve got a hot hand and you can think on your feet.” I saw the first ones when they came down. The flash. Thought people were dropping bombs, but there were no planes, no radar signatures, it was all visual. Next thing we know, armored nightmares start crawling along the ground. We stood fast. Scanned, scanned again. Nothing came up, system choked like a bad sniper with the game winning goal in his glove. That was ten years ago.

This is my apocalypse.

Introduce the game as fighting for independence to avoid past mistakes, then ramp into alien invasion. The key for me in this setting is to keep the politics. Aliens arrived. Nothing changed except now we’re fighting a war on multiple fronts. 

And you were right to do so, except I saw “combined attack” and immediately thought of “team work,” so I gave it a miss.

Good catch!

@ChaosDrgn Yes, but NCM is usually waived when you aren’t playing a human; NCM should be based on racial modifiers. Normal stats for a human (which I cap at 15 in my heroic campaigns) are not the same as NCM for an Oni, Troll, Ogre, Sprite, etc.

Just a thought.

And down we go through the rabbit hole!

Historically an average person with reasonable training could wear heavy armor; the weight is distributed across the body and yes, it’s heavy as hell, but they moved and fought in it just fine. However, it was very tiring, which is why I use LTE to represent this. You can also add an END cost based on weight class, each class adding 1 END to a given STR based action. Swing sword for half cost, but add 3. You can buy this off/counter it with training, an END battery and so on.

Great question, and props to @Sveta8 for getting the concept right out of the box. One thing I would point out in the build he posted, having both HTH Attack AND No Range is redundant. Without diving into every possible permutation of how it can be done, the core of your answer is “However your campaign does it.” In HERO, IIRC, attack ends a turn, a rule I scrapped a long time ago and if it still exists, chalk it up to faulty memory. What that means is that regardless of how you run it, be consistent.

In 5th Ed D&D, a cantrip I use constantly is Green Flame Blade, which changes my attack from a melee action (which allows certain specific bonus actions) to a Cast Action (which does not trigger one of my other abilities). In the case of that spell, the function is cast, make melee attack, add the effect of the spell to the attack. HERO would handle that model as Lighting Fist, Xd6 EB (Elemental Lightning, No Range, STR adds to damage). The alternative path is closer to a Mage’s traditional Shocking Grasp, EB, No Range, damage accordingly. The third option is to build it as a buff, where it’s an EB linked to a timer, the rules of which escape me at the moment, but is very possible.

Fortunately this is a fairly straight forward build, because there’s only a handful of common sense ways to approach it. I would look to you for how you want it run (told you it always comes back to those two questions; what do you want it to do, and how do you envision it working?) 

Another thing I would mention is that if you’re doing spell builds (a very common thing, I did all of D&D magic at one point up to level 5) experienced players will quietly and without warning “modify them and pay the points” without approval — do not allow this starting out. Make it clear “the spell is an object and it works the same way the campaign over; when you cast, when an NPC casts it, when someone across the ocean casts it, it’s always the same.”

The canon from Hero System Martial Arts (6th), pg 92 as my PDF runs, is written in such a way that each maneuver is very specific and locked in, and new maneuvers should be purchased rather than existing ones altered, creating the need for multiple maneuvers to develop a well rounded martial arts style for a given character, school, etc.

This is reinforced by the structure, explaining how each maneuver is built and the thoughtfulness required to get it right. It represents a set ”object,” that is purchased by the character but exists on its own as part of the martial art.

While the GM may overrule and allow a maneuver to be modified, the structure is that they would instead purchase a new ability.

I apologize as I don’t think I have the text you’re referencing; the possible answers are:

1) It’s a typo, those happen, or,

2) 22 includes base ED which stacked with 20 points of purchased defenses

If neither of those work, please post back with the specifics of the example and I’d be happy to break it down as best as possible.

The easiest/best way to determine this is by looking at the dramatic effect, so while the rules don’t address ice per se, we know that ice is brittle and subject to heat damage. I recommend selecting something with similar properties and then assigning its PD/ED (and any resistances) based on your campaign, for example, you could reason a low PD as ice shatters very easily, but a higher ED against non-heat sources. In terms of a direct correlation, you could look at something like plywood, 3/2, or home brew it to 3/3, etc. 

17 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

Oh, there's a reason why OIF is a Limitation.  It's because the equipment can go down with the ship.  

 

I'd assume that when you get back to civilization you can acquire duplicates, or spares, or replace them somehow, but "shipwrecked on a desert island" is not one of the conditions that allows you to do that. 

This is actually my point; I believe in this post, somewhere, I pointed out that it’s just as interesting if not more so to watch the protagonist meander about without their OIFs while talking to a volleyball. If the points are paid, then that’s that, and I agree its one of the “absolutes” in HERO. What is often unsaid is that it’s a game; things can change, points can be refunded or redistributed. But if you just fell out of a plane and miraculously survived by your parachute catching on a tree, and your stuff is scattered hither and yon, I mean.

Good luck finding it. That’s also why I like the idea of “fungible gear score.” That way the math heads have a mechanic they can lean on, while the players can still, you know. Pick things up. 

Another point I would make is that its important for players to realize that sometimes things are fungible; you pick up a rocket launcher, you fire the rocket, you fire the second rocket, invariably someone wants to take it with them and call it loot, at that point the GM should say “that’s heavy ordinance and isn’t supported by your current gear; you’d have to pitch something or acknowledge that it’s a giant paper weight.” That’s an all new rabbit hole, though. Sometimes the rocket launcher is there for a scene. And just that scene.

2 hours ago, Gandalf970 said:

This Halmades I like your late night ramblings!

Thank you! I always strive to educate and entertain at the same time!

@Ninja-Bear Remember, there are a lot of ways in HERO to mitigate damage, from being a dodge tank (DCV? Have some) to aggressive use of the Counter Martial Art maneuver. It’s down to what you want to represent and the level you want it; I would start doing some number crunching and come up with a sliding scale. 

Another thing I did in Persona was add a new abort maneuver, Soak. Abort to Soak: Raise a specific defense value by 1.5 for the duration. It functions like any abort, but the player has to identify which defense value they’re using. 

I believe what I said, was, “Mama, I got seats! (-0)” — much more specific than “Y’all a car now!”

Sir. *cough*

Which brings up a whole separate point, which is this:

Are we debating whether its possible, as a special effect (good news, it is) or,

Are we debating the very specific how because it’s an ongoing power use? Or.

Are we debating how many “car traits” you inherited in your transform. Or.

Are NONE of these things fully capturing the question?

In the first scenario, I’m fine with extra limbs and strength — exactly as I said in the beginning. If we’re really going into the more granular space of “how do I build seat belts and life support?” That’s almost a separate question, and the answer is exceptionally well documented, with harness being a thing included as part of a vehicles SFX. If this is a question of “how many angels can dance on my butt while I fly?” Depends on the type of angel and the amount of junk in that trunk. 

I’m all for a healthy debate, but I do want to ensure we’re answering the same question. That’s kind of important. I mean. To me.