Thia Halmades

And I want to go back to the office without risk of getting a life threatening illness; I want my daughter to grow up in a world that doesn’t involve fascism. I want a leader who isn’t bull horning for racism, and who at least at the basic level, can get through 5 sentences without lying. 
 
I want a pony.
 
The options are what they are. I get it. But. This is the system. These are the current rules. We have to play by those rules and we have to play to win. The only way to achieve that, currently, again, from a non-Trump point of view, is to vote Biden/Harris or, preferably a straight blue ticket. Again. Hope I did that without triggering anyone.
 
If you want to change the system, then elect people who will fight for ranked voting, so we can get away from the first past the post/wasted vote mechanic (no offense meant to the intent of your vote, as much as the way votes are tallied). So in a ranked system, you could put Libertarian first, then Democrat, and when the LIbertarian is mathematically eliminated, your vote moves to the next viable candidate. However, that won’t happen in a Trump/GOP administration. Shoot, it might not happen in a Biden/Harris administration, but Maine did it. Which means your State can do it and enough States do it, then Federal law will change.
 
Separate thought, but I thought a valid point, considering.

And I want to go back to the office without risk of getting a life threatening illness; I want my daughter to grow up in a world that doesn’t involve fascism. I want a leader who isn’t bull horning for racism, and who at least at the basic level, can get through 5 sentences without lying. 
 
I want a pony.
 
The options are what they are. I get it. But. This is the system. These are the current rules. We have to play by those rules and we have to play to win. The only way to achieve that, currently, again, from a non-Trump point of view, is to vote Biden/Harris or, preferably a straight blue ticket. Again. Hope I did that without triggering anyone.
 
If you want to change the system, then elect people who will fight for ranked voting, so we can get away from the first past the post/wasted vote mechanic (no offense meant to the intent of your vote, as much as the way votes are tallied). So in a ranked system, you could put Libertarian first, then Democrat, and when the LIbertarian is mathematically eliminated, your vote moves to the next viable candidate. However, that won’t happen in a Trump/GOP administration. Shoot, it might not happen in a Biden/Harris administration, but Maine did it. Which means your State can do it and enough States do it, then Federal law will change.
 
Separate thought, but I thought a valid point, considering.

And I want to go back to the office without risk of getting a life threatening illness; I want my daughter to grow up in a world that doesn’t involve fascism. I want a leader who isn’t bull horning for racism, and who at least at the basic level, can get through 5 sentences without lying. 
 
I want a pony.
 
The options are what they are. I get it. But. This is the system. These are the current rules. We have to play by those rules and we have to play to win. The only way to achieve that, currently, again, from a non-Trump point of view, is to vote Biden/Harris or, preferably a straight blue ticket. Again. Hope I did that without triggering anyone.
 
If you want to change the system, then elect people who will fight for ranked voting, so we can get away from the first past the post/wasted vote mechanic (no offense meant to the intent of your vote, as much as the way votes are tallied). So in a ranked system, you could put Libertarian first, then Democrat, and when the LIbertarian is mathematically eliminated, your vote moves to the next viable candidate. However, that won’t happen in a Trump/GOP administration. Shoot, it might not happen in a Biden/Harris administration, but Maine did it. Which means your State can do it and enough States do it, then Federal law will change.
 
Separate thought, but I thought a valid point, considering.

I would put caps down, though, now that I’m thinking on it, which I mentioned in one of @Gandalf970’s threads, and I mention him here as I think he’ll find the discussion interesting. So for me, using some real world examples;
 
All Persona skill are: Gestures, Incant, Cost END, Only Known Powers (-0), Only Equipped Persona (-0), RSR (specifically a stat roll for EGO, which is -1 for 20 AP), but in reviewing my notes and my builds not all of those are consistent, and I would likely go back and make a few changes, such as:
 
* -1/Power Rank (I - VII), and equate that in terms of cost to 1/20
* Ironically, this means that my system works similarly to yours, and a player could buff up their ability to throw, say “Fire” or “Support” skills (I would be largely fine with it)
* My CAP on that, though, would be Stat/5, or, Stat/3, depending on my mood and what I think worked in context with common and dramatic sense. 
 
I mention that because I didn’t see you list any specific limit, and I wasn’t certain where you wanted the final average difficulty to fall (I am usually looking to cap people out at 14-, after difficulty modifiers, any higher and it can get into automatic territory).,
 
Tired, making a 4 or 5 course meal, rambling. But hopefully that’s giving you some context around my thoughts.

Fox News Slams CNN For Providing Biden Each Question Seconds Before He Answered It
 
WASHINGTON—Expressing outrage that the network’s moderators would stoop so low on a nationally televised town hall, Fox News pundits slammed CNN Friday for providing Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden each question seconds before he answered it. “Biden’s responses to CNN’s questions clearly show that he’d been tipped off as to what the question was going to be at least several seconds beforehand when it was being asked—how is that fair?” asked Tucker Carlson Tonight host Tucker Carlson, echoing the criticisms of several other conservative media outlets that Biden was given an unfair advantage by getting to hear the entire question before replying. “Seriously, I thought these people learned their lesson after what happened in 2016 with Hillary Clinton, but it’s absolutely clear from the way Biden listens to their questions and responds that he had listened to their questions before responding. This is the kind of bias we have in the media right now. You know that if Donald Trump was at the town hall instead they would make him answer the question before it was asked.” Fox News pundits additionally slammed CNN for unfairly giving Biden’s campaign advance notice about the town hall’s format, location, and the fact that it was being nationally televised.
 
https://politics.theonion.com/fox-news-slams-cnn-for-providing-biden-each-question-se-1845108668

@eepjr24of you have skill maximas AND skill penalty at -1 per 5 ACT, Personally I wouldn’t bother being a spell user.

This one!

I LOVE THIS ONE!!
 
Warning: I’m up a little late and when that happens I tend to ramble. So I’ve put my answer to your question up front, where it’s easy to see:
 
Answer 1: It actually doesn’t matter as long as you’re consistent. You’d be surprised how much punishment the HERO system can take and still put out a balanced game experience. To go back to @Ninja-Bear, it’s easiest to make all weapons free, because the cost was paid by the player when they invested in the Martial Art to use it. For example, Kusari-Gama. If I pick one of those up, I’m going to smash my own skull. Someone trained in it, however, is going to have the opposite experience. This is how I did it in Persona; you pay the points for what you want, you have the thing more as a manifestation of the point investment, rather than the other way around. If a bunch of points are paid for magic, great. Here’s your spell list based on the rules laid down for this system, etc.
 
Answer 2: There are a number of other things to consider before you can answer it. And based on the question, I’m making a couple of assumptions: That you’re doing some kind of high fantasy setting, that said setting involves the collection of gear and loot, and that said gear and loot is plentiful enough that it prompts the question. So if Kage, the Shadow Mage, doesn’t have 33 points available, he can’t pick up the enchanted hand crossbow? Or the bracers of archery? It’s downright skull breaking. So how else do you solve for it?
 
You can do this: Each character can soul-bind/befriend/attune (to use the 5th Ed D&D word) to X number of magical items. This is a campaign rule and costs zero points that the players can see, but you can see them. If you want to be hard and fast with it, you can give everyone their build cost in magical attunement. I build a 200 point Rogue, I can equip up to 200 points of magical gear. Or if you’re concerned, just, “gear.”  This can include spell books, spells as well as swords and shields. Going this route removes all of the messy player level book keeping from the equation, and leaves the GM free to run a game that plays like it should. 
 
Alternatively, each player may be limited to the Rule of 9; head, chest, arms, legs, two weapons, two rings and a necklace.
 
There’s no “canonical right way” to do it. In ... FH 5th Ed? Steve put forth the idea, as an option, gear is gold, magic is points. But that’s not always the case. And, more importantly, ignoring that is not necessarily going to create any kind of imbalance in your campaign. Your best bet, IMO, is to ignore this question entirely, and instead drill down to stat spread, skill selection, core powers/abilities, damage dealt, and damage that can be sustained, in addition to any other non-combat abilities that your casting classes are going to have. So let’s break down the reasoning:
 
In a traditional fantasy setting, there are three and a half core classes; Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard/Cleric. I say 3.5 because there’s a ton of campaigns and systems that just go with “magic” and that includes healing, there’s systems with all kinds of different ways to tap into other worldly... or natural but normally inaccessible... or... you get my point. The more critical question, in my mind, is not about point assignment or gold spent, but functionality and general balance. To that end, I would say that those three classes don’t really provide much framework. Whereas tank, blaster, scrapper, controller, etc., more traditional super heroic tropes, do the job much better.
 
The tank wears heavy armor, carries some variety of weaponry, has a shield. Do those cost points? Someone brought up: things paid with gold are fungible, things paid with points are not, however, there’s a counter to that, and that’s “everything has a point cost.” There’s a nasty rabbit hole you can fall down trying to reconcile the cost of a shield against gold against real cost in points to the character. Meanwhile, your casting classes have to spend points on their spells — unless you say they don’t. And you treat spells like equipment. Also an option. My late night rambling aside, here are my hard learned lessons from years of GMing Fantasy HERO:
 
1) Power level is, broadly, a lie. After a while it becomes nearly impossible to do a decent audit. I became much more interested in this question: Does everyone have roughly the same points invested in base stats and core skills? Do they all fall within the guidelines for CSLs, and are they utilizing the tools provided accordingly? Last, but not least, is their general DPR (damage per round) equivalent? A fighter who hits every round may not be as sexy as a Rogue with extra dice in Backstab, or a wizard who can throw chain lightning through an entire group, but that just means they’re doing their job. Standing up front, drawing fire, surviving, and dealing out punishment. The Rogue should be able to outpace the fighter in damage, because that’s the rogue’s job.
 
2) Damage output caps are critical. Decide early what your max number of KA dice is, AND your highest Active Point cost, and hold that line for a while as you continue to balance encounters and defenses. 
 
3) Remember: Defense wins championships. Unless you let someone buy an NND Killing Attack that’s disruptive, or the Wizard can call down oodles of Meteors every round. You don’t want that to happen, that gets gnarly.
 
4) This in a very looping way comes back to my point, and your question: when is it appropriate and how do you do it? My answer is “ignore the common application, and approach it differently.” We can math everything to death. Doesn’t mean we should.

The point is this:
 
I will submit, as an apriori premise, that the majority of people’s minds are made up. I will also acknowledge, via point A, that they are fighting for the margins. If you agree to those two points, then the conclusion I’ve drawn is this: We must have two more debates. it is the only way to actively demonstrate the material differences in plan, in approach, in demeanor between the two in real time. It’s the only time that both of them are ‘putting themselves out there’ and fighting for votes. 
 
Well. One is fighting for votes, the other is fighting to get you to NOT vote, including bull horning for fascist groups who represent a material national security threat to start poll watching. Interesting note, SCOTUS told the GOP 30 years ago they couldn’t poll watch in the manner they intended. That restriction lifted this year as its time expired. Because 2020. Go figure. 

Donald Trump is 74.
 
The 7 is silent.

I agree with you, this was not a debate; he was not engaging with intent to debate, he intended to drive people away, to convince them to tune out, because the current poll data shows an exceptionally strong lead, and voters who reinforce that lead mean a referendum and forced accountability. That would go against the existing narrative of being a “rule breaking deal maker.” The goal here is to push everyone out of the picture and failing that, to plan on dragging the election into a stacked SCOTUS. 
 
When you’re planning on fighting the results, when you insist repeatedly that the election is rigged, and you call for fascist groups to poll watch — that suggests you know where this is going and you’re grasping for any possible way to remain in power.

I think you’ve captured the heart of my opinion. My greatest concern is that when given an opportunity to denounce white nationalism, and a name, which Trump asked for, and was provided “Proud Boys,” he said “stand back, and stand by.” 
 
They’ve now turned this into a new banner. It’s truly chilling. I think if I said anything else I would risk wandering into @Simon land, so I’ll leave it there. I think I am safe in saying this: anyone who believes that is a proper and rational response to being told to denounce white supremacy is not someone I want to know.

I agree with you, this was not a debate; he was not engaging with intent to debate, he intended to drive people away, to convince them to tune out, because the current poll data shows an exceptionally strong lead, and voters who reinforce that lead mean a referendum and forced accountability. That would go against the existing narrative of being a “rule breaking deal maker.” The goal here is to push everyone out of the picture and failing that, to plan on dragging the election into a stacked SCOTUS. 
 
When you’re planning on fighting the results, when you insist repeatedly that the election is rigged, and you call for fascist groups to poll watch — that suggests you know where this is going and you’re grasping for any possible way to remain in power.

The alternative is someone who doesn't understand how viruses/vaccines work, and/or doesn't care.
 
One takeaway I had from this is that I think Trump genuinely thinks he can yell at scientists to make a vaccine come faster, and it will.  It's the whole 'run govment as a business' model.  Someone not finishing fast enough?  Yell at them!  Problem come up?  If it's easy, solve it, other wise just damage control and obfuscate!  Don't bother trying to fix a complicated problem, you'll fail anyway.  And of course, my favorite:  Someone disagrees with you for any reason?  Fire them!
 
Given more infections is related to more mutations, how long will a vaccine even work on covid?  What side effects will there be?
 
 
Last observation.  Trump's suggestion that he was preventing a panic by lying about covid is laughable.  To put this in perspective.
 
Let's say you believed you were in danger of losing your job.  Would you want a partner to say "Don't worry, I think you are overthinking.  Even if it is possible, we have a financial plan and options if things go bad."
 
or
 
"Don't worry you can't lose your job!  It's impossible!  It'll never happen!!!!"

I think you’ve captured the heart of my opinion. My greatest concern is that when given an opportunity to denounce white nationalism, and a name, which Trump asked for, and was provided “Proud Boys,” he said “stand back, and stand by.” 
 
They’ve now turned this into a new banner. It’s truly chilling. I think if I said anything else I would risk wandering into @Simon land, so I’ll leave it there. I think I am safe in saying this: anyone who believes that is a proper and rational response to being told to denounce white supremacy is not someone I want to know.

It’s why I outlawed wish. Just didn’t exist in my games. 
 
I get where you’re coming from @Scott Ruggels, however I actively side with Mallet and Hugh on this issue; to me your argument says “we are all equal and must all be playing by the same rules which I should have complete and total insight to.” That may not be what you’re saying, but that’s what I keep pulling out as the underpinning “core” of your objection. I can’t have infinite summoned MOBs, neither can they.
 
This next bit is said without snark, and I want to say that because a) I’m easy to misinterpret and b) people get sensitive and I’m trying to be mindful of that. There are a ton of completely legal ways to get “Summon a Lich-Load of Skeletons,” in addition to the various mentions people gave. Some general things:
 
NCM applies to players, not monsters, meaning, a monster has as many CP as it needs to satisfy its special effect(s). So my troll needs 50 STR because it’s a troll? Cool. That’s already outside of what a player can have (by my own post) because I can account for game balance as a GM for what I build, but I cannot anticipate every permutation of what a PC will come up with. 
 
Summon Skeletons, Trigger; when this tomb is disturbed, and the password is not uttered (PS: there’s no need to ever tell anyone there’s a password, it could just as easily be “and it ain’t me, guys” THEN, Summon Skeletal Horde and Attack. Is it wonky? Sure it is, but it’s also legal and reasonable, it’s why you’re standing there for a hot minute before t3h h0rd3 descends upon you. What this all comes down to, for me, is those two classic words, “Common and dramatic sense.” I respect the kinds of games you want to play, I just think it’s very limiting to want all games forced into that block. Doctor Doom has way more toys and resources than most heroes, including the Fantastic Four. Shoot, Darkseid has a whole planet, sub dimensions and New Gods vs... the Justice League. Like. Those odds are BAD. Having your foes have more points just means you have to utilize better team work.
 
Maybe I’m off topic at this point? It’s possible. I’m not eating today. And my stomach is slowly licking my medulla oblongata for how much salt may be required before consuming it.

It doesn't mean necessarily mean that the players are playing with different rules, there are advantages that allow for adding an increasing number of tasks(duration), so it could be that the "Bad Guys" just have more powerful spells. Or, more likely, the creatures/minions they created weren't done via the Summoning power but rather by other power builds/rules in the system (like Followers, etc...) or via Narrative/non-rules means. Nothing prevents a character good or bad from somehow "befriending" an NPC or animal or monster and having it be loyal to them or stick around an area or work for them. If a character becomes a King of a region I wouldn't make him spend points on having all the citizens and soldiers under his/her rule be followers or "summoned" or anything. They would buy the Lordship fringe benefit to the appropriate level and then get the benefits and hassles that come with it. 
 
So a evil necromancer that has an army of undead skeletons working for him might have just bought up the appropriate level of Lordship Fringe Benefit and his troops/citizens are the undead in his area of control. 
 
I don't think the Summoning Power was built as a way to create permanent followers. They are other rules in the game for that. 

To Mallet's point, what prevents the PC necromancer spending points on Lordship just like the King of the Realm does? 
 
The GM deciding that NPCs can invest those points and PCs can't means the two are playing by different rules.
 
Setting the point cost so high that the PCs can't afford it, then giving the King extra points so he can is also different rules for the NPC.  How did he earn all those CP?
 
PCs have a lot more CP, and gain xp much faster than, most NPCs.  But a few NPCs have way more points that the PCs, and/or are allowed to break campaign limits when PCs are not.  That's also different rules for PCs than NPCs.  So a lot depends on how you define the two.
 
Both PCs and NPCs can find and keep magic items.  All we have to do is presume that musty old scroll that the NPC Necromancer unearthed was a Magic Item bestowing the power of creating Undead Armies that last, rather than an in-game reason that he could spend the CP and learn a spell that does the same thing, and ostensibly the PCs and NPCs are playing by the same rules.
 
All I'm really saying, in all of that, is defining "playing by the same rules" is pretty tough. 
 
If we accept that "guard the castle killing all outsiders but not my meat allies" is one command, why isn't "accompany my where I travel and attack my enemies" one command which can be maintained in perpetuity"?  Sounds like we end up with players trying to write commands like those old D&D "wish that covers every interpretation you could possibly use to screw me over in granting the wish" exercises.

I have something to add here.
 
That answer was freakin’ epic. *slow clap* @mallet Bloody good show.
 
Get it? Vampire? Bloody? Because they drink blood? Amirite? Guys?
 
Where are you going?
 
Hey wait up!!
 
Moving on!
 
If I’m understanding the rule right, upon summon you get assignable tasks based on EGO, your Necromancer can purchase EGO, Only to Assign Tasks to Summoned Creatures, (-1). Why -1? Because he’s going to use it freaking constantly. As an aside to that aside, I generally don’t allow purchasing of stats over and above beyond 2x the base; so in a world of NCM, where they bought to 20, I’m going to keep the total possible at 40. One thing I learned early in HERO — you must set limits. Because players be like ‘wooooo!’ And you have to be all ‘noooooooo. Seriously, Chris, no, you cannot do that. Because it’ll break the game, that’s why. No, we’re not going to test it. Dude, seriously...”
 
(actual conversation, actually held multiple times).
(with the same freakin’ guy).

You can totes fix that, but should you change your mind, I’ll be in the Caligari Sector, enacting the Emperor’s Will. Purging heretics. Getting loot. You know how it is.

It's not ignoring anything.
 
Take the following: a magic spell that grants the recipient +30 Strength for 1 hour.  Don't worry about the construct except that it is bought as a Power (Characteristics bought as Powers are NOT Characteristics).  The recipient of the spell is trucking right along, feeling great....and is hit with a Suppress, knocking that spell down to just +5 Strength for his remaining 45 minutes.  Sadness occurs.  Even more sadness occurs when he is then hit by a Dispel, eliminating the Strength bonus altogether.
 
But wait!  That Suppress is going to fade.  As soon as it does (and the total Strength exceeds the amount of Dispel), said spell snaps back into being on our intrepid hero.

Oh, FF VIII. My favorite entry in the series until XV!
 
Seriously. I loved VIII. I get a lot of hate for it, but eh, what are you gonna do? I liked the brooding hero, gun blades are amazing, and the heroine didn’t get popped too early. Character design was solid and what have you. ANYWAY.
 
Spells first. These are actually END batteries, not charges. “Thia, but...” No buts. It’s an END battery, defined and limited as “the most source energy of a given element I can tote at a given time,” with the default max being 100. Then you cast spells with END, all spells cost END, must draw from elemental battery (-0, as a unique campaign limitation). END is cheap, and I can boot up VIII (it’s on my iPad) and confirm that, I’m going on memory here.
 
Your second question is the one that’s interesting to me, because I did it for Persona. And to do it I probably broke a... crap load of rules, but it boiled down to making each Persona a “vehicle” that behaved like a power armor. Once a Persona is equipped, it has set abilities, it can never have more than 8 abilities, those abilities are from a defined list, etc. etc. When equipped it passes specific skills to the user, both combat and non-combat. The point is, I was able to do it for... 220? Permutations (I didn’t write them all out, I didn’t need to, but I have the framework to do so) and all of their spell variations.
 
FF, like Persona, uses a graded damage scale, but it’s not interesting, so I wound up writing two spells for every spell level, one more traditional, and one more that was more “Heroic.” It was the most fun I ever had doing a build and frankly it worked far better than I expected.
 
I don’t know if any of that gives you inspiration or helps in any way, but that’s how I managed it. I gave up thinking of them as “mechanics” and reasoned from effect; what is this, and what is it really doing? It’s a power armor for the soul, it grants stat buffs, skill boosts and a limited set of powers. Okay, I’ve got this. 

Thank you for all the help, these were fantastic ideas and I am using some and mixed.  I decided on the relay and the fight hanging from a rope.  I am also going to use Thia's idea about now they are seditionist's and are going to be introduced to new allies to really take down the new enemy.  Great help all, I will let you know how it goes!

I’ve been turning this over in my mind, but something keeps coming back to me; you’ve made it a point repeatedly that they aren’t in this for any reason except to go back to their normal lives. So for me, I would make them the focus of the ritual, kind of like a horrible, horrible surprise party. And, the most important part, is that they lose. They’re in the wrong place, the ritual requires “the blood of the faithful,” etc, one way or another, they are directly feeding into the thing’s completion. Upon completing it, they are cursed/tied off/forced to adhere to the conditions of the summon while they get introduced to new allies who are going to help them act as seditionists against the thing that beat them. Kind of like Curse of the Azure Bonds, but instead of being heroes, who know they’re being framed, they’re kind of “normal blokes” who would rather not do this and are suddenly smack in the middle of it with no way out but through.

I’ve been turning this over in my mind, but something keeps coming back to me; you’ve made it a point repeatedly that they aren’t in this for any reason except to go back to their normal lives. So for me, I would make them the focus of the ritual, kind of like a horrible, horrible surprise party. And, the most important part, is that they lose. They’re in the wrong place, the ritual requires “the blood of the faithful,” etc, one way or another, they are directly feeding into the thing’s completion. Upon completing it, they are cursed/tied off/forced to adhere to the conditions of the summon while they get introduced to new allies who are going to help them act as seditionists against the thing that beat them. Kind of like Curse of the Azure Bonds, but instead of being heroes, who know they’re being framed, they’re kind of “normal blokes” who would rather not do this and are suddenly smack in the middle of it with no way out but through.