zslane

This. A thousand Likes upon this post. ghost-angel...gets it. :-)

Okay. Good to know.

When I first posted, I tried to pick a forum that most closely matched the subject of my question. I didn't realize I had so badly missed the target. Nor was I aware that early December was entering a period of proverbial radio silence for the company. My expectations were misaligned, but in my defense I had no way of knowing that. I appreciate you setting me straight. Which forum in particular would be a better place for my question?

Unless that "somebody" is an official Hero Games representative who is authorized to speak for the company, then we have yet to get an answer to my question. I am puzzled as to how my quest for an answer constitutes perpetuating a myth. I am not claiming that Hero Games will pursue legal action, merely stating that they could, and that is not a myth. Nevertheless, their public silence on the matter is worrying. I could send private email, but I would like the answer posted in a public forum, and expressed in the form of official policy. I don't find that unreasonable, do you? I realize that historically, print-on-demand has not been a terribly cost-effective endeavor, especially for one-offs. But things have clearly changed (at least for b&w interior print). I guess maybe some folks think I'm just lying or something, or that Lulu's website is being downright deceitful. I can only say that such individuals are incorrect and urge them not to perpetuate an outdated, invalid understanding of the current state of print-on-demand services, because that isn't helping anyone.

Silly wabbit, that stuff isn't for players. It is for GMs who don't want to imagine/write/build all that stuff themselves. At least the more involved chapters are. A good overview in the first chapter may be sufficient for players to know what kinds of characters are available, but the GM will need quite a bit more beyond that to get a campaign started. And like I said, it doesn't need to be fleshed out in whole in the main book. But the skeleton of it needs to be there. You can't expect GMs and players to make sense of the Imperial Inquistor package deal if they have no clue what that is or how it fits into the game world. The whole point of providing an entire world in broad strokes is to give context to everything else that is painted in detail (monsters, spells, artifacts, races, package deals, etc.) The notion that these things can exist in a vacuum is what makes improvised RPG campaigns a mishmash mess with little or no immersive quality. Unfortunately, I have neither the time nor the talent to show what I envision by actually writing the dang thing (lead by example, as they say). Without doing so, however, there's no way to really test whether or not my approach would prove worthwhile.

6E1 is not too thick to be printed perfect bound. I don't really see the value of perpetuating that myth. But none of this is germaine to my original question. And frankly, there is little point in hashing out how to make personal hardcopy prints of these PDFs if Hero Games is going to take legal action to stop it from happening.

A setting book needs to describe all the important elements that make the game world different from the real world. If a fantasy setting isn't very different from the historical Middle Ages or Tolkien's Middle Earth or TSR's Forgotten Realms, then why are we buying books about it? The races, cultures, politics, technology, etc. should need to be explained and detailed to make a product line worth doing in the first place. That doesn't mean wasting paragraphs on who delivers the mail in some irrelevent little village. But it does mean devoting a chapter to the Imperial family, its major players, how they came to power, how they maintain their power, and who is seeking to dethrone them. A chapter describing how magic works (because presumably it is not simply Yet Another Bland Spell Point system), how magic affects the different cultures of the game world. Chapters describing each major kingdom and their cultural norms, their attitudes towards other races, other kingdoms, other magical traditions. Their deities and religious practices. Their major industries, such as they are. Who controls the sea lanes and what is the degree of piracy that threatens maritime life? Do dragons control the air? What are the major beasties and what are typical encounters in different regions of the game world? Are there powerful magic relics to be unearthed? Where did they come from and how do they impact regional legends and folktales? Etc. There is an awful lot that can, and should, constitute a fantasy setting. Just because any one GM doesn't need all of it at once doesn't mean it doesn't need to be written down. When you take on the role of game book writer, you can't think like a GM; you have to consider all the GMs out there and their different needs. The main setting book may only provide a "skeleton" of these topics, but it still has to provide all the bones. I wonder if expectations of what constitutes an RPG setting has been dragged perilously low somehow over the years...

At least the tactically obsessed are deeply involved in the action. I'd rather have to train them to work out what they plan to do during other people's Phases than have to coax the intransigently disengaged to be more participatory.

The various 5th edition Age books were an attempt to provide fantasy settings for the Hero System. However, in my estimation they were not successful. I measure success by the number of subsequent supplements that come out in support of a setting. Any outside observer would think that either the Valdorian Age was a marketplace failure, or that Hero Games actually thought one book somehow constituted a product line. Regardless of which is the case, the end result was pretty anemic. From my point of view, a setting should be the foundation for an entire product line, ala Dragonlance, not simply a single book after which buyers are expected to do all the world building to fill in the vast content gaps left in the wake of the first (and in Hero Games' case, only) book. And it's not as if Hero Games doesn't (or didn't) know how to do this. I have an entire bookshelf filled with books that provide content for the default Champions universe during the 4th edition era. I have to believe that both fantasy and science fiction (or more likely, space opera) are popular enough genres that building entire product lines around rich, detailed, unique settings would be quite successful if done well. And if presented in a new, easier-to-use Read & Play style, we might find a whole lot of new blood joining our ranks who would never have bothered with the Hero System before. Note that I do not advocate reducing the mechanics of the game or simplifying them per se; only simplifying the way in which powers are presented, and offering lots of pre-built stuff custom-made for each setting. Most players only need to know how Mind Control works mechanically, and that each die of Dalgarion Mind Control costs 8 character points. They don't need to know why it costs 8pts/die, mostly because nobody is expected to modify the definition of Dalgarion Mind Control...and they shouldn't have to or even want to...that's the value of a well-conceived and well-written setting after all.

The estate probably has no idea what a reasonable figure for such a thing would be.

It seems to me that the DIY camp wants only DIY books and, because they see no value in detailed settings where a foundational base of starting material is built for you (with subsequent material if you want it), they don't think Hero Games should bother with it either. If Hero Games is itself in agreement with this point of view, then the non-DIY market that has historically avoided the Hero System will likely continue to avoid the system. The burden, then, of providing a distinctly non-DIY-oriented product line may fall on the shoulders of a passionate third party who licenses the Hero System. I'm not sure there is anyone within the existing ranks of qualified Hero experts who want to undertake such a project though. And so we'll probably never see anything more accessible and "playable out-of-the-box" for this system than the X Complete books.

The figure of 740 (softcover) and 800 (hardcover) also applies to 8.5x11 size books. A quick jog through their project setup wizard amply demonstrates this. Plus, I've made such books through them in the past and the results have been exceptional.

Limited resources is a major problem, I totally get that. However, Hero Games is no stranger to Kickstarter. I wonder if it wouldn't be possible to put together a successful KS campaign that aims to publish an entirely new line of, say, space opera products built around a detailed setting and a new, streamlined approach to the core rules presentation. The KS campaign would aim to deliver an entire year's worth of supplemental material, maybe a book every other month. But the key component, in my view, is the new presentation of the core rules, and it would be the new presentation, rather than rules changes, that would define the so-called "7th edition". If a KS campaign can't garner enough support, then maybe there just isn't a large enough potential customer base out there for a playable-out-of-the-box style of product suitable for newcomers. It might put to rest the question of whether or not it is even worth trying to appeal to that demographic after all.

I hope the take-away from all that is that there are very affordable options out there for printing single, private copies of large books from PDFs, whether you want lay-flat binding or perfect binding, or even hardcover (Lulu's hardcover prices are also very reasonable). The only question I really have is how Hero Games feels about it. Hence post #1.

Spence, I agree with your approach there. I see no reason to inundate beginners with all the calculations that yield the final point costs for things. And a good way to introduce the game gently is to use simplified powers without many advantages or limitations. Unfortunately, even if one were to find and recruit a writer capable of putting together a really good Starter version of Champions or Fantasy Hero or whatever, there remain two significant hurdles to its realization and long-term success. First is the problem of getting such a book published as an official Hero Games product, and the second is their reluctance to build a thriving product line out of and around that initial effort (where "product line" equals a detailed setting, villains, and adventures ready-to-use).

I confess that I do not know anything about this "Wild Strike" you speak of.

I'd be surprised if that sort of material couldn't be adequately covered in a magazine/blog article or two. A whole book of it though? Hard to imagine, at least on the scale of a commercial product. Not without vastly (and shamefully) exaggerating the depth of the material in the advertising copy... Something painted with such broad strokes is only saving prospective readers a little research time. On the other hand, a war-themed setting book full of allies, enemies, equipment, and pre-designed adventure missions saves not only a lot of research time (since it will have gone into far greater depth for a particular military era and socio-political environment), but also a lot of creative effort, which is much harder/time-consuming to drum up on one's own. I really think we need to get off this generic advice style of game product that has afflicted Hero System thinking for so many years, and instead concentrate on products with rich, detailed, specific settings that have something very concrete to offer.

When Champions first appeared, it doesn't seem to have occurred to its writers that players would want (to rely on) a chapter (or book) of pre-built power sets to ease the process of creating superhero characters. They surely felt that the example heroes and villains, combined with players' own imaginations were sufficient. Then again, if you look at the write-up of just about any 1st ed. Champions villain, its lack of complexity (compared with its 5th or 6th edition equivalent) seems almost quaint. And ineffably digestable, by comparison. I agree that the biggest obstacle to the Hero System's acceptance by newcomers is its presentation. But seeing as how just about anyone qualified to write a core Hero System book will inevitably have drunk the Kool-Aid with respect to traditional presentation, I'm not sure where a good "Hero System For Dummies" book would come from.

How can a PDF's age impact whether or not it grants the fair use priviledges accorded to all copyrighted works in the U.S.? A little bit of quick research: at printMe1.com, a 464-page b&w comb-bound book with simple clear acetate cover would cost $23.26. The same book printed as a b&w perfect-bound softcover with full-color wraparound cover by lulu.com would cost $15.32, and that's before you apply a 30-35% discount code that Lulu frequently makes available. That means a Lulu version of 6E1, indistinguishable in form from the other core library volumes available from RPGNow.com, could be had for around $9.95. Personally, I find this neither cost-prohibitive nor particularly controversial. In fact, I'm surprised that Hero Games never made 6E1/6E2 available in this form (via RPGNow if not directly).

Aside from the psychological scars obtained on just about any battlefield, there is precious little in common between different eras of military conflict. In fact, so much tends to change between major wars, that commanders who rely heavily on their knowledge and experience from the previous war find themselves losing constantly in the new one (and not understanding why). Just about any chapter you write in a generic voice would be superceded by the text in a book covering a specific setting/conflict, so the generic material is actually of very little value.

Assuming a player/GM has experience with at least one other RPG, then it seems to me that Champions Complete is as immediately playable as the D&D Player's Handbook, at least for the superhero genre. The MHI book is probably even more immediately playable, if you're into the modern monster-hunting genre. If a player/GM is completely new to the hobby, well, I probably wouldn't recommend the Hero System to a complete novice. Even when Champions first came out--when it was arguably simpler--virtually everyone who picked it up had prior experience with (A)D&D. That experience provided essential context for reading the rules of any new game system. Within that context, the Champions rulebook revealed a masterwork of game design that wasn't terribly difficult to grasp. However, to someone who had never rolled a polyhedral die, the content of that book would surely have seemed like a bizarre engineering document. If you're looking for a Champions Beginner's Set, then I think Champions Complete + Champions Universe is as close as you're going to get. If you're into a genre other than supers (or MHI), then you are simply out of luck. There is apparently no market incentive to take the core rules and wrap it up in an "immediately playable" package, including a setting and starting adventure. The D&D intro boxed set is probably a loss leader for WotC, and only "works" as a product for them because there are so many players who will buy the more profitable books later on.

How does one compute the cost of buying full color books that are no longer in print? If going by average used prices on eBay or Amazon, then I would submit that the cost of the PDF + the cost of perfect-bound softcover b&w printing is potentially much less, particularly since copies of 6E1/6E2 have slipped into the realm of collectibles. I'm pretty sure we can agree that "self" printing (from PDFs) copies of books still in print is kind of a dumb idea. But when it comes to obtaining hardcopies of books no longer in print and difficult to obtain in like-new condition for anything less than collector prices, well, I think the cost metrics deserve closer inspection.

Well, I actually already know the answer to that question...I was more curious how lou determined that printing "whole PDFs" would be "prohibitively" expensive.

How much do you imagine it would cost to print, say, the 6E1 and 6E2 volumes as non-color softcover books? These books are, and will forever remain, out of print, making them attractive candidates for private hardcopy.

Blatantly unbalanced is an awfully strong indictment. I would argue that after six revisions to the system, there is nothing in the game that is significantly unbalanced, much less blatantly so. IMO, any minor imbalances that remain, and all reasonable solutions to them, fall within the realm of GM tweaking and house rules. Most of the cries of imbalance I see aren't actually problems with the system at all, but with the manner in which it is used, and as I've said before, that is a social/personality problem, not a system problem. By insisting that it is a system problem, the burden of a solution falls onto the wrong shoulders (the system), and you never end up actually solving anything because the real problem, the min-maxing players, will always find ways to exploit a complex system and make your job as GM harder. Always. So not only do I disagree that the issues you raise constitute dire balance problems, I strongly disagree that the solution to those so-called problems are the responsibility of the rules system in any case. I realize this is all just a matter of perspective, but I think it is important that such accusations of system imbalance not go unchallenged in the court of public opinion. There is another way to look at and address your concerns, one which doesn't require Hero Games to give birth to yet another version of a system that has, IMO, already had too many dubious/unnecessary changes foisted upon it in its 30+ year history.